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  1. #41
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    THF really is that bad, it's severely outpaced by all other styles. Maul wolves work because they aren't THF and instead are Animal Fighting builds. A maul build without Wolf sucks similarly as other THF builds for the same reason.

    Class-design wise, however, you'll be unlikely to find SWF build on the top of the dps chart. A Silvanus Maul build is far outpacing any SWF build, or tempest / rogue TWF build. On a blanket scale SWF is better than THF, and for a poorly designed class like Pala, I'm with you, SWF is better. But I wouldn't agree with SWF>TWF>THF, because it doesn't work in practical builds.
    What you meant to say is Animal Fighting Wolves are at the top of the melee charts, which I wouldn't disagree with because they don't even take THF feats.

    The jury's been out on this for awhile, SWF > TWF > THF in melee damage. Now class features can change this, Tempest Rangers have special bonus's to TWF and Barb's have their own bonus's to THF, Paladin has no special combat style specific bonus's.
    We are in a Paladin thread discussing Paladin DPS builds. If I wanted to be pedantic I would say something like "the best Paladin DPS is a 18 Rogue 2 Arti Inquisitive".

    Before this Paladin life I did pure Fighter which involved 11 Epic TR's in a row, and I never used the same build twice in a row. Meaning one eTR I would run THF, another TWF, another SWF, another Vanguard and so forth, so really got to compare the different fighting styles without class specific modifiers. Then again on Paladin I did the same thing, mostly cause I wanted to try out revamped Divine Crusader and also wanted to get three more Divine and Primal eTR's. Everything I'm talking about is in that context, since other class's get radically different enhancement abilities. Without a special set of abilities to favor one fighting style over another, SWF > TWF > THF.

  2. #42
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    THF really is that bad, it's severely outpaced by all other styles. Maul wolves work because they aren't THF and instead are Animal Fighting builds. A maul build without Wolf sucks similarly as other THF builds for the same reason.



    What you meant to say is Animal Fighting Wolves are at the top of the melee charts, which I wouldn't disagree with because they don't even take THF feats.



    We are in a Paladin thread discussing Paladin DPS builds. If I wanted to be pedantic I would say something like "the best Paladin DPS is a 18 Rogue 2 Arti Inquisitive".

    Before this Paladin life I did pure Fighter which involved 11 Epic TR's in a row, and I never used the same build twice in a row. Meaning one eTR I would run THF, another TWF, another SWF, another Vanguard and so forth, so really got to compare the different fighting styles without class specific modifiers. Then again on Paladin I did the same thing, mostly cause I wanted to try out revamped Divine Crusader and also wanted to get three more Divine and Primal eTR's. Everything I'm talking about is in that context, since other class's get radically different enhancement abilities. Without a special set of abilities to favor one fighting style over another, SWF > TWF > THF.
    You are severely underestimating a 14clk/5barb/1fgt iconic with maul. +2 crit range from blessing, +1 from LD, and +1multi/range from holy sword, and +1extra multi from FB puts it at 15-20x5. Far beyond the multiplier of any 1h (16-20x4, or 14-20x3).
    I also get the feeling you aren't twitching as THF. Are you?

    You say things like

    virtually none of the damage is from the base weapons die
    And
    Finally there is a difference in how the animation is treated whenever the player moves, SWF doesn't slow down it's attack speed while running
    To build a solid case, you can't just disregard things and/or not have knowledge of what you're talking about. Again, my point isn't that THF is better for a pala than SWF. I agree with you there. But I can still agree with you even though I disagree with some of the things you say.
    Point in case being the two sentences above. Again, 40 deadly isn't "virtually none of the damage". Further, on animations, THF is known for getting *more* attackspeed while moving (twitching), so I fail to see how that's a pro in SWF's column, especially when you take into account the far superior reach of the THF animation (your argument of mobs being kited). I am aware you can twitch as SWF as well, but I don't have the aspd numbers for it, and from experience it isn't as significant as THF twitching,
    Formerly known as Absolute-Omniscience, co-creator of the old DPS calc.

  3. #43
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    Nope not underestimating at all, your just not reading. Maul's only work on wolves because their not even taking THF feats. Plus I don't see a single level of Paladin in there, just a war domain cleric trying trying to use Barb enhancements to shore up a bad DPS base.

    Here let me quote again, just in case you didn't read earlier.

    The jury's been out on this for awhile, SWF > TWF > THF in melee damage. Now class features can change this, Tempest Rangers have special bonus's to TWF and Barb's have their own bonus's to THF, Paladin has no special combat style specific bonus's.
    So you'd have to go 14 Paladin, 5 Barb, 1 Fighter instead and that's been done and it's weaker then the build posted by the OP. Your really just playing a weak Barb with some divine levels. Just go wolf instead and get all the benefits without having to deal with THF weakness.

    but I don't have the aspd numbers for it
    You realize that SWF is permanently twitching... it's one of the reasons you don't slow down attack speeds while moving. Trying to exploit combat animations doesn't do much for SWF because it comes prepackaged as already exploited. Sword and Board also works this way as it's the same combat animations.

    Now I expect the personal insults to start soon, ohh wait...

    I also get the feeling you aren't twitching as THF. Are you?
    Well I guess we could escalate to ***** size or something next.

    Listen you can have whatever opinion you want and cheer for the underdog if it makes you happy. The developers have already acknowledged that THF suffers compared to the other styles due to number of attack rounds. SWF simply attacks faster, procing more double strikes, more crits, more blitz stacks and so forth. TWF also attacks faster, especially on class's that can get 100% off hand proc rate with lots of off hand double strikes. Wolf form takes everything that would be attributed to THF, throws away the THF feats and merges it with SWF attack speed.

    Excellence is achieved by exploiting strengths, not shoring up weakness's. Since this is a Paladin DPS thread we're discussing how to best do damage as Paladin main, meaning 11 or more levels in Paladin and a Paladin T5. If we were to jump into meta-gamed builds then just ditch Paladin enhancements completely and go full inquisitive with possibly some levels in Arti or Rogue. *BAM* instantly in the top DPS bracket, but not really playing "Paladin" now are we.

  4. #44
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Nope not underestimating at all, your just not reading. Maul's only work on wolves because their not even taking THF feats. Plus I don't see a single level of Paladin in there, just a war domain cleric trying trying to use Barb enhancements to shore up a bad DPS base.
    Try reading again.


    Listen you can have whatever opinion you want and cheer for the underdog if it makes you happy. The developers have already acknowledged that THF suffers compared to the other styles due to number of attack rounds. SWF simply attacks faster, procing more double strikes, more crits, more blitz stacks and so forth. TWF also attacks faster, especially on class's that can get 100% off hand proc rate with lots of off hand double strikes. Wolf form takes everything that would be attributed to THF, throws away the THF feats and merges it with SWF attack speed.

    Excellence is achieved by exploiting strengths, not shoring up weakness's. Since this is a Paladin DPS thread we're discussing how to best do damage as Paladin main, meaning 11 or more levels in Paladin and a Paladin T5. If we were to jump into meta-gamed builds then just ditch Paladin enhancements completely and go full inquisitive with possibly some levels in Arti or Rogue. *BAM* instantly in the top DPS bracket, but not really playing "Paladin" now are we.
    Take a look at my sig. you think I'm basing anything off "feeling" and "underdogs". We'll have a new version out for the public soon, and you can count it yourself.


    Anyways, what my take away is, English isn't your first language. That's okay, it isn't mine either, but it kinda makes any reasonable discussion pointless if 50% of what people say is lost to you. You can't just go around saying 1+1=3, and be offended when people say it's wrong.
    Formerly known as Absolute-Omniscience, co-creator of the old DPS calc.

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