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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by generalfoley View Post
    Why choose warforged race? wouldn't horc have more damage?
    Perhaps. OP explains it his motives. Read.

  2. #22

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    What an absolute beast you made there!!! O.O

    I have a twf palie with 2 echoes of Whelm (mostly for flavor) but I cannot even try imagine getting close to these numbers.

    Anyways, I have a question. Since KoTC core 3 (Slayer of evil II) gives you allready ghost touch, why don't you go for more suiting boots?

    I personaly use Legendary knife toed boots (Thorn Guard +8, Armor-Piercing - 28%, Quality Seeker 4, Quality Strength +4, Green Slot) and in belt slot I have Legendary bronze dragonscale belt.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus_Magister View Post
    What an absolute beast you made there!!! O.O

    I have a twf palie with 2 echoes of Whelm (mostly for flavor) but I cannot even try imagine getting close to these numbers.

    Anyways, I have a question. Since KoTC core 3 (Slayer of evil II) gives you allready ghost touch, why don't you go for more suiting boots?

    I personaly use Legendary knife toed boots (Thorn Guard +8, Armor-Piercing - 28%, Quality Seeker 4, Quality Strength +4, Green Slot) and in belt slot I have Legendary bronze dragonscale belt.
    Ghostly is more than Ghost touch. It's also 10% incorp, which is pretty huge for a build with little access to dodge.
    They're also his only source of Insightful Charisma, which translates in better overall LoH, saves, Retribution charges.

    Those are pretty meaningful to the build.

    I'd wait for OP's actual response to this, since I'm an AWFUL melee player, but that's my best guess.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Ghostly is more than Ghost touch. It's also 10% incorp, which is pretty huge for a build with little access to dodge.
    They're also his only source of Insightful Charisma, which translates in better overall LoH, saves, Retribution charges.

    Those are pretty meaningful to the build.

    I'd wait for OP's actual response to this, since I'm an AWFUL melee player, but that's my best guess.

    Okay I didn't think of that. It makes sense
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  5. #25
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Hey Gilga,

    As usual, you maxed the build; I am so jelous!

    I was wanted to ask your honest opinion about it, though. It seems to me that this paladin, at least in offensive power, is only truly using DM and holy retribution from the paladin lines. Otherwise, wouldn't a THF fighter using a very similar configuration simply have higher DPS, no matter what?

    It seems to me that the fact that you made it ''viable'' and achieved such high stats is more a testimony to the gearing and power of your toon that to the paladin class. That said, I do understand that for THF holy retribution is a beast. But that's mostly a testimony to the current pathetic state of cleaves, wouldn't you say?

  6. #26
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    If most of the offensive power for this build comes from holy retribution, how do you think a 3 wizard splash would work with this for zombie form? You’d get +20% damage on holy retribution, your cleaves, and smites for a small loss in sustained damage over time single target when auto attacking.

  7. #27
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I was wanted to ask your honest opinion about it, though. It seems to me that this paladin, at least in offensive power, is only truly using DM and holy retribution from the paladin lines. Otherwise, wouldn't a THF fighter using a very similar configuration simply have higher DPS, no matter what?
    It seems to me that the fact that you made it ''viable'' and achieved such high stats is more a testimony to the gearing and power of your toon that to the paladin class. That said, I do understand that for THF holy retribution is a beast. But that's mostly a testimony to the current pathetic state of cleaves, wouldn't you say?
    Ciao!
    Quite franky, this thread is old... A lot has changed, and I'm playing a sorc
    You are right: cleaves are pathetic. Sadly, also THF is pathetic... I hope devs are working on this.

    I'm sad because I really like melee and THF.
    I completed Baz'Morath few days after the realese, and I invested more threads on Reflection of Blackrazor...
    Threads wasted: wolves were nerfed, and melees - previously the best dps - have lost ground vs inquisitors and sorcs.

    That said, THF builds (wolves and 'normal' THF) are still 'viable', and Confront any foe gives +3W now.
    But if you are looking for easy top tier dps, go inqui or sorc...

    Quote Originally Posted by flabbagonged View Post
    If most of the offensive power for this build comes from holy retribution, how do you think a 3 wizard splash would work with this for zombie form? You’d get +20% damage on holy retribution, your cleaves, and smites for a small loss in sustained damage over time single target when auto attacking.
    I do not think going zombie will give you benefits. 50% healing from Positive and 20% slower attacks really hurt.
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  8. #28
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    Ciao!
    Quite franky, this thread is old... A lot has changed, and I'm playing a sorc
    You are right: cleaves are pathetic. Sadly, also THF is pathetic... I hope devs are working on this.

    I'm sad because I really like melee and THF.
    I completed Baz'Morath few days after the realese, and I invested more threads on Reflection of Blackrazor...
    Threads wasted: wolves were nerfed, and melees - previously the best dps - have lost ground vs inquisitors and sorcs.

    That said, THF builds (wolves and 'normal' THF) are still 'viable', and Confront any foe gives +3W now.
    But if you are looking for easy top tier dps, go inqui or sorc...
    Thanks for the answer! I agree with everything you said.

    I am just coming out of a sorc build; it is hilariously broken. Specially in lower skulls, where it is simply "cheat mode" activated.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    Ciao!
    Quite franky, this thread is old... A lot has changed, and I'm playing a sorc
    You are right: cleaves are pathetic. Sadly, also THF is pathetic... I hope devs are working on this.

    I'm sad because I really like melee and THF.
    I completed Baz'Morath few days after the realese, and I invested more threads on Reflection of Blackrazor...
    Threads wasted: wolves were nerfed, and melees - previously the best dps - have lost ground vs inquisitors and sorcs.
    I truly hope someone upstairs is listening to this.

    I like two kinds of melee mostly due to their fun abilities: WW as monk and Holy Retribution as Paladin. Sadly, Paladin has just been "good" for like 2 weeks since 2007, but we can´t have fun now, can we?

    edit: +1 for even daring to post a paladin build! would be awesome if you included a video next time, don´t have to be anything fancy, just something so we can draw our own conclusions.
    Last edited by LavidDynch; 09-06-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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  10. #30
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    Ok lets pair this down from masturbation to something that's useful for the general public.

    2 completionist
    2 racial completionist
    1 half orc pls
    5 reaper
    2 yugo pot
    2 remnant pot
    4 alchemical (Tenser)

    18 STR can be removed.

    34 insightful cha (this is also inflated by PL's)
    Another ~4

    Which reduces this to around 108, which is what most can expect to get and is still a very good number.

    Instead of THF switch to SWF with a Soulrazor and Knights Training and you immediately get a damage bump along with a "free" slot in the orb for whatever someone wants to put there. Also can swap out the belt and put on mistfallen to get Legendary Adherents of the mist set bonus for more MP / PRR / ect.

    During my messing around I discovered that the Divine Crusader match's perfectly well with this setup by providing the group a ton of AoE healing via either Consecration (+10% damage and healing) along with No Remorse (aoe heal on death of enemy). Fun fact, healing from no remorse isn't reduced by reaper at all, in fact its increased by it. Specifically the base healed amount is the CR of the enemy that died, so a CR 61 monster with one stack of purification will heal everyone for 61 HP on death, that is then enhanced by Heal Amp. The higher the reaper level the higher the CR the more HP everyone gets back. Stacks of purification happens to everything around you every 3s, whenever you crit something, or when it takes damage from consecration, so basically everything near you. Holy Retribution and Strike Down are solid damage boosts, endless LoH is a ton of emergency healing. I've main healed R6~8 groups doing this, could do R10 if R10 didn't instantly one shot every non-tank anyway.

    Really interesting play style that mixes DPS with party support and plays to Paladin's innate strengths.
    Last edited by palladin9479; 10-02-2019 at 05:13 PM.

  11. #31
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Ok lets pair this down from masturbation to something that's useful for the general public.

    2 completionist
    2 racial completionist
    1 half orc pls
    5 reaper
    2 yugo pot
    2 remnant pot
    4 alchemical (Tenser)

    18 STR can be removed.

    34 insightful cha (this is also inflated by PL's)
    Another ~4

    Which reduces this to around 108, which is what most can expect to get and is still a very good number.

    Instead of THF switch to SWF with a Soulrazor and Knights Training and you immediately get a damage bump along with a "free" slot in the orb for whatever someone wants to put there. Also can swap out the belt and put on mistfallen to get Legendary Adherents of the mist set bonus for more MP / PRR / ect.

    During my messing around I discovered that the Divine Crusader match's perfectly well with this setup by providing the group a ton of AoE healing via either Consecration (+10% damage and healing) along with No Remorse (aoe heal on death of enemy). Fun fact, healing from no remorse isn't reduced by reaper at all, in fact its increased by it. Specifically the base healed amount is the CR of the enemy that died, so a CR 61 monster with one stack of purification will heal everyone for 61 HP on death, that is then enhanced by Heal Amp. The higher the reaper level the higher the CR the more HP everyone gets back. Stacks of purification happens to everything around you every 3s, whenever you crit something, or when it takes damage from consecration, so basically everything near you. Holy Retribution and Strike Down are solid damage boosts, endless LoH is a ton of emergency healing. I've main healed R6~8 groups doing this, could do R10 if R10 didn't instantly one shot every non-tank anyway.

    Really interesting play style that mixes DPS with party support and plays to Paladin's innate strengths.
    Better single target DPS maybe.

    I think its pretty reasonable to get yugo pots/rem pots/UMD enough for tensors, given the same gear (and there isnt much raid gear listed).

    IMO, loosing an artifact & filigree slots would lower DPS.

    DC unfortunately still cannot match the DPS of LD, but agreed does boost the survivability - question is, do you prefer to kill things before they damage you, or whittle them down while they hit you?
    Last edited by voxson5; 10-02-2019 at 08:22 PM.

  12. #32

    Default If you hate life...

    You can roll up a Paladin THF and pretend to DPS.

    It isn't just bad, it's TERRIBAD!

  13. #33
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komradkillingmachine View Post
    You can roll up a Paladin THF and pretend to DPS.

    It isn't just bad, it's TERRIBAD!
    I have done it. It can complete content, but you would be better on a different character anyway. Issue is, when you have the reaper points, ap points, PLs, and gear that gilga has a lot of flavor becomes viable.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I have done it. It can complete content, but you would be better on a different character anyway. Issue is, when you have the reaper points, ap points, PLs, and gear that gilga has a lot of flavor becomes viable.
    No amount of reaper points and rAP can overcome the suck that is the Paladin and KoTC tree.

    Hilariously tho, Vanguard version is somehow viable if you drop Defender stance, commit to Fury and hold still while shield bashing under Adrenaline. Even then, Fighter Vanguard is miles ahead of this.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    Better single target DPS maybe.

    I think its pretty reasonable to get yugo pots/rem pots/UMD enough for tensors, given the same gear (and there isnt much raid gear listed).

    IMO, loosing an artifact & filigree slots would lower DPS.

    DC unfortunately still cannot match the DPS of LD, but agreed does boost the survivability - question is, do you prefer to kill things before they damage you, or whittle them down while they hit you?
    I'm speaking about in epics where the splash damage from THF becomes almost meaningless. The root issue is that glancing blows ignore critical entirely, meaning stuff like +seeker isn't being applied and so forth. With KT and Holy Sword a Soul Razor will be 16-20/x4 with 19-20/x5 or /x6 with LD, this cause's Long Swords to deal far more damage then Great Swords, I know because I just ran a THF build last epic life and this life is a SWF again, HUGE difference. THF took forever to kill stuff, SWF acts like a chainsaw.

    I extracted those because they apply the exact same on ALL BUILDS, regardless of class. A DC death Cleric could get the exact same +STR from those items without any changes to their build, it's kinda like bard buffs. Big numbers like that is good for masturbation, but not useful for planning and comparing builds with each other. Things that are innate to Race, Class, Gear, Feats, Enhancement Trees, Spells, Tomes and stat point distributions are what we want to use.

    Having done both DC and LD I can say there isn't much damage difference, Blitz is nice and all actual game play revolves around survivability not DPS. I've seen plenty of "pure DPS" toons die and stay dead for entire runs because more damage means more hate means more 500+ damage hits to the face. You then gotta take time and either disengage to self heal, or pray someone else notices your HP, has a target-other heal set, and bothers to use it on you. The benefit of DC is that the healing is primarily passive, you don't need to actively do much other then hit things and drop a consecration circle if there is a big pack of mobs. Not only are you keeping yourself alive, but your also keeping everyone else alive. Did this a few days ago when I was running THF, struggling with anything past R3 with some folks (no dedicated healer), lots of random death. Got fed up, switched to DC and made Great Swords a favored weapon (that's REALLY important in DC). Suddenly we're cruising through R5. I would run ahead, Dire Charge into a group, drop a circle and as mobs died everyone got healed for 150~200 HP per dead mob. When an energy burst wipes out 4 mobs, that's 600~800 HP that everyone, including me, get. When the boss summons minions, that's just more HP we can get back. Between consecration and no remorse, very little extra healing needed at mid to high reapers.

    I still had the highest kill count, just because I didn't have to worry about dieing.


    On a side note, there are two class's / build styles that can actually make use of THF. Barb's and Maul Wolf Druids. Barbs can because they get crazy buffs to THF like +2 Crit multiplier. KT and SWF really changes the game though.
    Last edited by palladin9479; 10-03-2019 at 01:29 PM.

  16. #36
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    General consensus is that Paladin + THF is a terrible choice these days.
    I gave it a try, and I was positively surprised.

    In reaper endgame THF pally is really solid, and dps output is good.
    It's a heavy melee that works well in party, and can solo decently.
    I completed r7...

    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    ... when I was running THF, struggling with anything past R3 with some folks (no dedicated healer), lots of random death.
    So vs OP you struggled on a lower difficulty, and in a group, therefore a THF paladin is bad?

    Nice arguement.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    So vs OP you struggled on a lower difficulty, and in a group, therefore a THF paladin is bad?

    Nice arguement.

    Nice straw man ya got there, here let me give you a match.

    Now lets break this down into two different arguments , THF vs SWF, and LD vs DC.

    THF is mathematically vastly inferior to TWF and SWF, there is a reason it's become a running gag. Developers have even acknowledged this and plan to address it sometime in the future. The reason for it's inferiority is the number f attacks and animation speed. With THF the best you have is 15% alacrity with 30% AB Haste until your non-fighter AB's run out. SWF on the other hand has +30% to go with that 15% and 30%, meaning 45% at rest and 75% with AB Haste. SWF hits just as hard as TWF due to GSWF giving the same +50% bonus to primary damage stat that THF starts with and virtually none of the damage is from the base weapons die. SWF also gives an entire open gear slot, the off hand, that THF doesn't have. This lets you slot in Orbs that provide more stats or even set bonus's with gear your already wearing. Finally there is a difference in how the animation is treated whenever the player moves, SWF doesn't slow down it's attack speed while running. That's kinda important in today's meta where mobs like to move around. Now factor in the Knight's Training feat, which does absolutely nothing for Great Swords but dramatically boosts the one handed counterpart the Long Sword. Long sword is also a favored weapon available for pretty much everyone. PSWF makes your vorpal range 19~20 which doubles the proc rate of censor outsiders.

    So between those two it's not even a think, SWF wins all day every day. OP is a maxed out toon and wanted to see how far they could push THF, take his exact same setup and switch to SWF would of seen a significant damage jump. Tweak it a bit further to accommodate the open Trinket / Orb for Legendary Adherents of Mists and the switch becomes better.

    Now for the ED's, I've plainly said that LD is a better DPS and I hope nobody thinks to argue against that. The recent ED overhaul really boosted DC such that while it's still less offensive, the difference isn't that big. The +10 damage for using favored weapon is really nice, plus the +5% crit chance and extra melee power on criticals. Every critical, every aura tick and every tick of consecration applies a stack of purification which reduces the targets offensive power, and when the target dies everyone gets healed. Then the +10% everyone gets for fighting on the consecration shouldn't be ignored. Less overall DPS but a lot more healing.

    Which if you actually read what I wrote was what many reaper teams lack. Nobody wants to play a dedicated healer, or even any sort of healer to begin with. Having a melee DPS that applies passive healing to everyone is a huge benefit in reaper, especially since that healing isn't reduced by reaper level. Now if the group I'm in happens to have a healer, well it's really just to hit CTL+E, choose Legendary Dreadnought, click "Make Active", rearrange a few twists and viola more DPS, less healing.

    TLDR;
    Great Sword = 25% Crit @x3, 10% @x5 +15% Attack Speed
    Long Sword = 25~30% Crit @x4, 10% @x5~6 35% Attack Speed

    LD = better DPS, DC = better group survival, pick whichever is needed most in that team.
    Don't we all love versatility.

    Nothing the OP was doing was specific to THF, he just happened to have a trinket for a raid that he decided to build his maxed out toon around. All his power came from the gear and PL's, not from the THF line. Holy Retribution works even better with a KT Long Sword then a Great Sword. The important part of what OP posted is a general framework that everyone can use to build a DPS related Paladin.
    Last edited by palladin9479; 10-03-2019 at 03:32 PM.

  18. #38
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    SWF on the other hand has +30% to go with that 15% and 30%, meaning 45% at rest and 75% with AB Haste. SWF hits just as hard as TWF due to GSWF giving the same +50% bonus to primary damage stat that THF starts with and virtually none of the damage is from the base weapons die.
    Not saying your wrong on a whole, but the base weapon die is quite significant. Depending on how many W you have, you're looking at up to 40 more damage on a 2h vs 1h. And I wouldn't call Exceptional Deadly 40 insignificant if it were in the game. Further, on the topic of glancing blows, I know they feel weak, and they are a bit weak, but they still contribute about 10% of the total DPS on 1 target if you're standing still, about 7.5% dps if you're twitching. Which brings me to twitching, I don't have the numbers for SWF twitch, but I would be very surprised if it is as comparatively good as THF twitch (about 20% dps).

    Again, not saying THF is better than SWF, but as THF you still have:

    +7-10% dps from glancing (depending on build of course)
    +40 deadly (depending on how many (W) (at 10W it's 40deadly roughly)
    +20% dmg from twitch
    Formerly known as Absolute-Omniscience, co-creator of the old DPS calc.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-O View Post
    Not saying your wrong on a whole, but the base weapon die is quite significant. Depending on how many W you have, you're looking at up to 40 more damage on a 2h vs 1h. And I wouldn't call Exceptional Deadly 40 insignificant if it were in the game. Further, on the topic of glancing blows, I know they feel weak, and they are a bit weak, but they still contribute about 10% of the total DPS on 1 target if you're standing still, about 7.5% dps if you're twitching. Which brings me to twitching, I don't have the numbers for SWF twitch, but I would be very surprised if it is as comparatively good as THF twitch (about 20% dps).

    Again, not saying THF is better than SWF, but as THF you still have:

    +7-10% dps from glancing (depending on build of course)
    +40 deadly (depending on how many (W) (at 10W it's 40deadly roughly)
    +20% dmg from twitch

    Again, not saying THF is better than SWF
    Yes you are but in a indirect way. It's just like saying "I'm not saying your fat but you used to fit those jeans". This isn't me undervaluing something as I just got done doing another 3 consecutive eTR's and one of them was as a THF Paladin, the difference was night and day and after a few weeks of slinging the THF I did another eTR and went back to SWF. The OP is attempting to bypass the limits by THF by instead focusing their damage on Holy Retribution, that has a 6 second cooldown so your doing something else for the other 5 seconds.

    The jury's been out on this for awhile, SWF > TWF > THF in melee damage. Now class features can change this, Tempest Rangers have special bonus's to TWF and Barb's have their own bonus's to THF, Paladin has no special combat style specific bonus's. I guess Shield would be the "special" one but that's a very special build that works infinitely better on Kensei Fighter then Paladin due to KotC not being very strong. On top of all that KT significantly boosts Long Sword, there is no such boost for Great Sword and Great Sword is weaker then Falchion in terms of DPS for THF.

    Play SWF with the GSWF feat and notice how it's as though your permanently twitching, and that's before you consider the 30% attack speed increase. It's really no comparison, and this is from someone who loves THF style gameplay. Hopefully SSG will adjust THF a bit to either bring the number of attacks in line with SWF / TWF, or significantly jack up it's damage (like 2.0 from stat mod / glancing blows critical on primary target).

  20. #40
    Community Member A-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palladin9479 View Post
    Yes you are but in a indirect way. It's just like saying "I'm not saying your fat but you used to fit those jeans". This isn't me undervaluing something as I just got done doing another 3 consecutive eTR's and one of them was as a THF Paladin, the difference was night and day and after a few weeks of slinging the THF I did another eTR and went back to SWF. The OP is attempting to bypass the limits by THF by instead focusing their damage on Holy Retribution, that has a 6 second cooldown so your doing something else for the other 5 seconds.

    The jury's been out on this for awhile, SWF > TWF > THF in melee damage. Now class features can change this, Tempest Rangers have special bonus's to TWF and Barb's have their own bonus's to THF, Paladin has no special combat style specific bonus's. I guess Shield would be the "special" one but that's a very special build that works infinitely better on Kensei Fighter then Paladin due to KotC not being very strong. On top of all that KT significantly boosts Long Sword, there is no such boost for Great Sword and Great Sword is weaker then Falchion in terms of DPS for THF.

    Play SWF with the GSWF feat and notice how it's as though your permanently twitching, and that's before you consider the 30% attack speed increase. It's really no comparison, and this is from someone who loves THF style gameplay. Hopefully SSG will adjust THF a bit to either bring the number of attacks in line with SWF / TWF, or significantly jack up it's damage (like 2.0 from stat mod / glancing blows critical on primary target).
    You misunderstand. I'm saying that THF is worse than SWF (wrote it twice now), but I'm also saying that THF isn't as bad as you said. You can't just ignore 3 major pros for THF and simply say that hte only thing THF gives is glancings... And then undervalue those too.
    If you say 1+1 = 2, and then also say that 2+1=2. Then I can say that you are correct that 1+1=2, but I can also say that 1+2=2 is wrong. If that makes any sense.

    Class-design wise, however, you'll be unlikely to find SWF build on the top of the dps chart. A Silvanus Maul build is far outpacing any SWF build, or tempest / rogue TWF build. On a blanket scale SWF is better than THF, and for a poorly designed class like Pala, I'm with you, SWF is better. But I wouldn't agree with SWF>TWF>THF, because it doesn't work in practical builds.
    Last edited by A-O; 10-08-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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