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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    And I don’t see where it says that’s the absolute maximum dps on a vistani. It’s just a really good dps build, and you’re assuming it’s the absolute best. You’re assuming that it’s the absolute best because you (me actually) don’t have another video to compare it to. You’d do far better to not parrot other players and do your own thing.



    Most of the people who play this game are bad, and think in maximums. The essence of min/maxxing is not only to push your maximum, but to not over push it into the excessively powerful. The extremely good players? They worry more about the minimum DC than the maximum. There’s like 5 threads about people who are bragging about their endgame DCs right now. But they probably have the same chance I do to actually land an assassinate on an ogre in R10 WPM.

    Casters/Ranged mobs, and other no-will monsters have incredibly low fort saves. If you target low fort save mobs, you can get away with an incredibly low DC. As I said. My assassin runs 75 DC and can land his assassinate on over 80% of the mobs I target.

    Most of the DC casters who you are claiming are unable to land 110+ are not truely thinking about how to play their caster to the best ability. They will complain as soon as their DC isn’t effective against the highest save mob in the game. They are not thinking to the degree that they should. Truely, the best casters I know generally have second tier DCs like 100-110 necro instead of 115+. They’re the best because they know what champs are immune to what spells, what mobs have extremely high saves to certain spells, and which spells they are weak to.

    In short, (and to finally get more to the point) your AP split requires so many exessive AP spending in 2 trees that it actually ends up being worse off. I get +6 MP from Harper due to not excessively spending in VKF. And in the process I can pick up another 3d6 SA dmg, and 3 MDB/Max Dodge. AND your split doesn’t have KtA which is a rather significant DPS/Utility boost.

    You are over maximizing. Think in minimums, not maximums.
    My split is 31 assasin, 41 vistani, 8 harper... Thats KTA not sure where you're getting no KTA from lol... truly I should be taking 18 rouge 1 fvs 1 monk for 4 point KTA and use those 4 for other stuff faster movement, etc.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    My split is 31 assasin, 41 vistani, 8 harper... Thats KTA not sure where you're getting no KTA from lol... truly I should be taking 18 rouge 1 fvs 1 monk for 4 point KTA and use those 4 for other stuff faster movement, etc.
    You’d trade 4 AP for an extra 5d6 SA die?

    23 points into vkf gets you basically everything besides the top and bottom dagger line, 2 Dex, and the capstone (which after spending an addition 6 AP into harper is only 4 MP more). And costs 18 (12 if thinking Harper AP spend) AP less.

    Also, your split has 75 Non racial AP spent. Assuming that you have the Universal Tome that’s 6 left, which nets you a 30 second KTA. At that point I’m gonna argue that your ability to consistently keep it up isn’t going to be good to assume that you have 100% uptime.

    Final edit. You may want to check your OP. Your AP splits are changing throughout your arguments. Your OP AP spread leaves 5 (6 with tome) leftover AP for Harper which isn’t enough for KtA, or only 30s clickies. And this is kinda why I knew I shouldn’t have commented in the first place
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 06-22-2019 at 10:49 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    You’d trade 4 AP for an extra 5d6 SA die?

    23 points into vkf gets you basically everything besides the top and bottom dagger line, 2 Dex, and the capstone (which after spending an addition 6 AP into harper is only 4 MP more). And costs 18 (12 if thinking Harper AP spend) AP less.
    Your split is 41 Assasin, 23 Vistani, 13 Harper lmfao where on earth are you getting that math from. You're completely ignoring that you have to invest so much more into assassin for the capstone. Thats 77 AP total and gives you 3 AP for faster movement.

    I'm trading 5d6 SA for 4 MP, 12% DS, 4 dex, +2 all abilities, whatever glyphs give you, 5% attack speed, the option for +12 dodge if you have DS past lives/+1 crit multi on 19-20...

    5d6 SA at 200 melee power is an average of 50 extra damage (17.5*3) that doesn't scale off of crits.

    50 damage vs 12% double strike, 5% attack speed, 4 MP (this can be +2 if you take weapon focus w/ ur one extra feat)... seems like an easy comparison.


    Edit: Also just realized to get the 6 MP from harper you mentioned you have to use 14 ap actually... 5 to get to t2, 3 for 3 mp, 3 for KTA, 3 for 3 more MP... so thats 78 AP, so you burn 6 ap for 6 mp lol
    Last edited by SemanticMirage; 06-22-2019 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    Your split is 41 Assasin, 23 Vistani, 13 Harper lmfao where on earth are you getting that math from. You're completely ignoring that you have to invest so much more into assassin for the capstone. Thats 77 AP total and gives you 3 AP for faster movement.

    I'm trading 5d6 SA for 4 MP, 12% DS, 4 dex, +2 all abilities, whatever glyphs give you, 5% attack speed, the option for +12 dodge if you have DS past lives/+1 crit multi on 19-20...

    5d6 SA at 200 melee power is an average of 50 extra damage (17.5*3) that doesn't scale off of crits.

    50 damage vs 12% double strike, 5% attack speed, 4 MP (this can be +2 if you take weapon focus w/ ur one extra feat)... seems like an easy comparison.


    Edit: Also just realized to get the 6 MP from harper you mentioned you have to use 14 ap actually... 5 to get to t2, 3 for 3 mp, 3 for KTA, 3 for 3 more MP... so thats 78 AP, so you burn 6 ap for 6 mp lol
    You ask for advice but get defensive when people give it to you. You link dps videos expecting me to act as though that’s your dps numbers. That’s a different player who is better than both you and me. Run the split and let me know if you even break 18s. Have a good day.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 06-22-2019 at 11:07 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    You ask for advice but get defensive when people give it to you. You link dps videos expecting me to act as though that’s your dps numbers. That’s a different player who is better than both you and me. Run the split and let me know if you even break 18s. Have a good day.
    ??????????????????? I offer a concise breakdown of the benefits of the 2 monk splash over pure and all you can say is this... please come back when your willing to have a legitimate discussion on number comparisons. Besides it seems I touched a nerve on your end by coming down on assassinate... lol have a good one.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    I'm trading 5d6 SA for 4 MP, 12% DS, 4 dex, +2 all abilities, whatever glyphs give you, 5% attack speed, the option for +12 dodge if you have DS past lives/+1 crit multi on 19-20...

    5d6 SA at 200 melee power is an average of 50 extra damage (17.5*3) that doesn't scale off of crits.

    50 damage vs 12% double strike, 5% attack speed, 4 MP (this can be +2 if you take weapon focus w/ ur one extra feat)... seems like an easy comparison.
    A) idk What your average MP is (mine is around 280-300) but if doing the human split you are loosing 126 SA damage or roughly 9-11% of your SA damage, which after front number is probably 6-8% total damage.

    B) I agree that the 12% DS would be big for those players who don’t hit 100%. I hit 80% without rapid slash.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    A) idk What your average MP is (mine is around 280-300) but if doing the human split you are loosing 126 SA damage or roughly 9-11% of your SA damage, which after front number is probably 6-8% total damage.

    B) I agree that the 12% DS would be big for those players who don’t hit 100%. I hit 80% without rapid slash.
    300 mp at 5d6 SA gives 17.5*4.5=78.75 damage not sure where ur getting the extra 50

    Also, my point of posting the Symbiont video wasn't to insinuate that I have his DPS/am a better player. There's a reason why he, as such a strong player, decides to take the 18 1 1 split over pure.
    Last edited by SemanticMirage; 06-22-2019 at 11:50 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    Again I don't see how anything you've said so far is indicative that pure is stronger than a splash. Symbiont has been and still is a well respected builder and min maxer when it comes to building optimized toons. If you want to please take a video of your pure assasin running a dps test and see how it compares and while your at it I'd love to see you assassinating something in r10 sharn welcome, maybe I've been playing wrong.
    And the point of posting the luckiest streak of crits on helpless stationary target with every single buff ( bard, fvs hopes, dust, crusade etc ) on build specially tailored for that "test" is exactly what ?

    That is not really any "proof" of build effectiveness. Neither is "max deeps" on Lamania.

    There are 4.5 great full time assassins on Gland. Shadow Jumper, Silent, Chipp, Asancriss and Beans. And every single one of them has been pure. That's the "reality", not some Lama beatdown.
    Dude has been playing nothing but rogue last few years. One of the few rogues I like to have / play with in r8 - 10 epics.

    But maybe if you are really interested in "dps test" on live like r10 Bruntsmash or something else, make a video of your split in action first and someone can react ?

    I don't play my assassin anymore but fail to see how any splash is better than pure. Lose tons of SA, 50 mrr (!), Brutality.
    Rogue trees are too good to pass.

    Shahang (hjeal me), Wipekin (tempest), Nezhat (barbie) Ghallanda/Devourer

  9. #29
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    300 mp at 5d6 SA gives 17.5*4.5=78.75 damage not sure where ur getting the extra 50

    Also, my point of posting the Symbiont video wasn't to insinuate that I have his DPS/am a better player. There's a reason why he, as such a strong player, decides to take the 18 1 1 split over pure.
    The. Halfling. Tree. That. You. Keep. Ignoring.

    Would your build actually break 800 SA damage? I’m betting not. An 8d6 SA die increase would be 15% more SA dmg for your build
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 06-22-2019 at 12:51 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    The. Halfling. Tree. That. You. Keep. Ignoring.

    Would your build actually break 800 SA damage? I’m betting not. An 8d6 SA die increase would be 15% more SA dmg for your build
    Racial. Tree. Is. Not. Based. On. The. Split.????

    Your build so far based upon what you're telling me is 41 Assasin 23 Vistani 14 Harper that leaves 2 AP

    Mine is 41 Vistani 31 Assasin 4 FVS tree (this is better) leaves 4 ap so if anything this split has more flexibility with AP

  11. #31
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    Racial. Tree. Is. Not. Based. On. The. Split.????

    Your build so far based upon what you're telling me is 41 Assasin 23 Vistani 14 Harper that leaves 2 AP
    You’re a human dude.

    In the course of this thread your race and APs have changed.

    I have the luxury (much like Symb) of having my toon be a racial completionist. If you don’t have the extra AP take the SA die.

    If your SA number on your split is around 1000 (i really don’t see how it would be that high) that 4d6 from assassin capstone is 7.8% SA damage increase.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 06-22-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    You’re a human dude.

    In the course of this thread your race and APs have changed.

    I have the luxury (much like Symb) of having my toon be a racial completionist. If you don’t have the extra AP take the SA die.
    I thought we were comparing class splits not racial bonuses???? Racial bonuses really arent relevant to the discussion which is why I'm confused as to why you bring it up at all.

    20 Assassin vs a 18 2x is a loss of 5d6 SA not 8d6 or whatever ur pushing

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