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Thread: Sorc Tree's

  1. #1
    Community Member zappy's Avatar
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    Default Sorc Tree's

    the sorc savant trees are not exciting and the T5's suck.

    fire seems to be the flavor of the month as tiefling goes well with it. lets take a look

    teir 1
    - bruning hands. use this till level 4-5 and then the damage is too low to use. end up wasting enh points later on.
    -intensity (haggle and intimidate skills +1 to will at the third) i dont see anyone using this
    -one with inferno 3/6/10 fire resist. prerec for t2pierce. not worth it.
    -spell crit. yeah but its just 2%
    -conflagration fire spell power on fire spell cast seems fine

    t2
    -no sla why not?
    efficient (maximize, always take maximize)
    pierce fire- only 15. this is useless.
    spell crit 2% wow so amazing i cant even.
    fanning the flames. temp sp its 3. cmon 3 really

    t3
    no sla why not?
    efficient (quicken, always take quicken)
    spell pen only 1 teir? wow so crappy. good thing i have all the spell pen lives or i would be sunk
    spell crit fire wow so much spell crit? really? how about some crit multi? pretty please?
    +cha fine standard affair,

    t4
    scorch SLA put this at t2 only used along with teifling improved scorch as it has a faster cooldown than teifling scorch SLA. also shares a cooldown with teifling scorch pls fix?
    efficient heighten. cool
    fire guard. isnt it a sorcs job to kinda not be hit?
    whoooowoooo more fire crit chance wow
    +cha same as all trees

    t5
    fireball sla caps damage too low useless at cap ok for leveling, make this a t4.
    awaken elemental weakness fire. make this a t2 thing, seriously only useful till level 20 and we get the same thing built into capstone. this makes it so a non pure fire savant can still use fire spells vs fire immune.
    heat death. uses a con modifier. never hits. useless
    evocation focus +1 uhhhh wow at t5 1 whole evocation dc? thanks obama
    elemental diversification, wow a whole 10 extra force spellpower nice t5? can that just be removed? i dot think anyone would complain.

    cores every point +.75 universal spellpower so a total of 41x.75 cause nobody can ever find a reason to spend more than 41 points in this tree is an extra 30 USP
    10 fire spellpower
    +1 caster level with fire
    -10 cold spellpower
    -caster with cold spellpower each core

    level 6 +1 max caster level
    level 12+1 max caster level and a burning effect on fire spellcast
    level 18 immune to paralysis
    level 20 +1 max caster level +2 charisma turn into a fire elemental

    fire elemental form
    20 fire spell power
    2% crit chance
    +1 max caster but -3 in other elements
    10 fire resist
    20 prr
    -10 cold resist
    10% extra spell cost

    lets make elemental form have extra crit multiplier only -3 in cold spells and remove the 10% spell cost also lets just remake the savant trees cause they are bad.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    cores
    1 fire savant
    every point spent in tree gets +1 USP
    +10 fire spell power'
    +1 to max caster level and caster level with fire spells
    -10 cold spellpower
    -1 to max caster level and caster level with cold spells (alternately you can just make it so that cold spells cannot be cast, if that is something you can do.

    core 2 level 3
    10 fire spell power
    +1 to max caster level and caster level with fire spells

    core 3 level 6
    same as exists

    core 4 level 12
    stack of burning on fire spell cast scales with fire spellpower
    10 fire spellpower
    +1 to max caster level and caster level with fire spells

    core 5 level 18
    FOM permanent
    10 fire spellpower
    +1 max caster and caster level with fire spells

    core 6 level 20
    +1 max caster level and caster level with fire spells
    10 fire spellpower
    +4 charisma
    when fire spells strike the target gets a stack of fire vulnerability (up to 20) for fire spells or strips fire immunity for 10 seconds

    fire elemental form
    immune to fire damage
    +2 to cha and con
    +20 fire spellpower
    +1 max caster level and caster level of fire spells
    -10% vulnerability to cold damage
    you cannot cast spells that deal an elemental damage type besides fire while you are in fire elemental form

    t1
    sla- burning hands (do not make this a pre-rec for the next teir up!!!! it is great for 5 levels and then a waste of points!)
    intensity can stay as is but add +1 will to each teir
    one with inferno -5/10/15% fire resist
    spell crit +2% chance and multiplier to fire spells
    conflagration this can stay as is

    t2
    SLA scorch (do not make this a pre-rec for the next teir! the damage is not good enough in high level content or maybe max the spell level uncapped?
    efficient meta magic can stay
    pierce fire resits lets go a little bigger, reaper is a thing that exists now after all, say bypass 20/60/100 fire resist
    spell crit and multiplier 2%
    awaken elemental weakness fire. lets make it so that a non tiefling fire savant is not screwed before level 12 vs a fire immune mob shall we?

    t3
    SLA break
    efficient meta magic is fine as is
    spell penetration +1/2/3
    spell crit 2% and 2% multiplier
    cha +1

    t4
    SLA fireball here
    efficient meta magic is fine here
    fire guard. remove this and replace with +1/2 evocation DC
    spell crit and multiplier 2%
    cha +1

    t5 needs a full rework as the only good abilities just got improved by making them available at lower tiers.
    SLA SLA of scorching ray but make it special, cooldown to 2 seconds and uncapped spell level.
    exiting fire name! +1/2 max caster level with fire spells
    exiting fire name! +1/2 caster level with fire spells
    DC +1/2 in all DC
    fire spellpower +50


    a few simple tweaks and we are done! would be easy to carry this exact thing to the other savants as well.
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  2. #2
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    t5
    Unbound - Your Fire spells no longer have a level cap. (copy/paste/change for each element)

    Spell Mastery - +3 Evocation, +2 all other DC's

    Burn it all down (SLA) - High AoE Damage Spell (1/2 Fire and 1/2 Light). Blinded on Failed Save

    From the Depths - +50 Fire Spell Power, Fire Shield

    Power Unbridled - Every time you cast a non-water/ice spell that doesn't critical, increase your chance for your next spell to critical. Stacks 10 times. Stacks are removed at a rate 1 every 15 seconds or when you successfully caste a critical non-water/ice spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  3. #3
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Past the 4 CHA from capstone, I would prefer a little help with defenses.

    Elemental forms:
    • Water: MRR, Saves
    • Air: Run speed, Dodge cap
    • Fire: Temp HP, regeneration
    • Earth: PRR, HP

  4. #4
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    If Elemental Savant could be compressed into one tree, Sorcerer could get Archmage for the 3rd tree. To me it seems AM actually fits the Sorcerer way better the way it is implemented, very spammy to play.

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    Not sure I'm qualified to speak about the 'power level' of the sorcerer trees (though I never had an issue with my first life water sorcerer during heroic levels).

    But I do agree that having 4 elemental trees is a bit boring, all pretty much identical except for the few SLAs.

    If the technology is available, I would also like them compressed into 1 tree with multi-selectors, leaving space for something a bit different (like a Wild Mage )

  6. #6
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Past the 4 CHA from capstone, I would prefer a little help with defenses.

    Elemental forms:
    • Water: MRR, Saves
    • Air: Run speed, Dodge cap
    • Fire: Temp HP, regeneration
    • Earth: PRR, HP
    Stacking MRR, otherwise it's useless.
    Stacking Run Speed

    Temp HP? How frequently would it refresh?
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  7. #7
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    Sorcs are oppressively powerful in lower difficulties; and the power of their trees is a significant part of the reason why.

    They have a lot of * in there that's not worth it; but the cores more then make up for it.
    Selvera: Human Fighter 18; Inquisitive build
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  8. #8
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    Sorcs are oppressively powerful in lower difficulties; and the power of their trees is a significant part of the reason why.

    They have a lot of * in there that's not worth it; but the cores more then make up for it.
    I would be okay if the caster levels were back loaded into high cores, and gave us instead defenses to spam "badder" damage. Right now it is perfectly balancing out the "kill or die" gameplay on a 0 inherent defense build, and 0 way to incorp without further crippling spell casting abilities.

    On the high end, Sorcs are already down, another kick is probably just making everyone roll over to the better DC casters.

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    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Something I like to keep in mind when looking at caster trees is that a big, main draw of a caster class is their lineup of spells. An enhancement tree is then pretty justified in simply making those spells better.

    ALTHOUGH I don't normally find myself casting regular spells for damage due to their high cost, especially if I'm applying meta-magics to them.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

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    If you don't like +8% fire crit you're not spamming enough. I agree I'd like something more unique than 4 similar trees, but they are pretty damn powerful.

    I did a fire sorc life recently (before tiefling) and he was blasting the **** out of everything pretty well. He wasn't at cap for very long before reincarnating, but I've seen plenty of sorcs destroying legendary/reaper quests. My problem was that I was a warforged so between that and fire ele form it was a hassle to heal myself.
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    Tying heat death to Con needs a rethink. Should be tied to Charisma. No other class has a T5 damage ability based on the non class defining stat.

    Known bug with Meteor swarm level tied to Acid needs fixing ASAP.

    Need to add a +2 Evo DC in the lvl 20 t0.

    Also gear wise it makes sense to add the Cha Gloves (innate arcanum) to Beacon of Magic set.

    Would have been nice to add an RL enhancement style belt Fire/Electric Acid/Cold to match the staves in Sharn. Pigeon-holing is no fun.

    Scaling in Epics needs a bit of work: make epic levels add to the Max caster level as well?

    Master of Fire should increase Evo DCs for fire based spells as well.

    some is addressed in the new ED pass, but not sure if its enough.
    Last edited by scut207; 06-18-2019 at 03:29 PM.

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    Default depend the sorcerer you look for

    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Past the 4 CHA from capstone, I would prefer a little help with defenses.

    Elemental forms:
    • Water: MRR, Saves
    • Air: Run speed, Dodge cap
    • Fire: Temp HP, regeneration
    • Earth: PRR, HP
    I use to play dc caster and i will disagree with you for the 4 CHA, i find this really good to have. I find sorcerer great in many ways. i agree with you sorcerers have a poor defense but i find it's a class great even in high reaper with the only limitation, the sp, good dps, good damage. I will appreciate more boost elem damage cause i imagine sorcerer more nuker but no class is perfect.
    i find sorcerer better then warlocks in many aspect of the game (not in defense hélas), and i will try again wiz cause think actually it's great again and need to see if i find them zctually better then sorcerer.
    valdomir

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    Community Member Strambotica's Avatar
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    After see this post... got the idea to improve a bit all, and post it in the suggestions' and ideas section.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Sorcerer-Tree

    Edit: with some ideas from here.

  14. #14
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    The weird thing about casters is that:

    primary stat > casting dc > spell (m)cl > anything else... provides the most reliable scaling.

    It is easy to know when your DCs and SpellPen work, but for damage output more is more, harder to pin down when we are getting to the point of being effective with it (across all content where we should be effective with it)..

    Ideally players would stop min-maxing around the few spells that work, and widen up their range of spells cast and worth building for, but I dont see that happen with the unbalanced spell cooldowns.

    How about:

    Capstone:

    4 CHA
    Your [element] spells have 15% less cooldown
    Your [element] spells reduce MRR on targets -1 / cast up to 20.

    Elemental Aptheosis (toggle form):

    Your [element] +3MCL & CL
    Your [element] spell critical damage multiplier is +20%
    Your [element] spells strip immunity from target.
    Your [element] associated defensive benefit ( Example: on spellcast: add CHA to temp hp for Fire. Similar to: Feigned Health in T1 Warlock->Scholar)





    T4 below the T5 specials could be adjuted with defensive benefits: eg: (to make up for some forms losing out on passive defenses)

    Earthen Armor: Gain a +1/+2 stacking bonus to your Armor Class.

    to

    Earthen Armor: Gain +7/15/20 PRR

  15. #15
    Community Member zappy's Avatar
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    some great suggestions here, so I am a mid reaper player 1-28 and a high reaper player 29-30, I am currently leveling a sorc up and am at level 21 right now. Only 2 spells and one destiny spell are currently worth using, meteor swarm and delayed blast fireball and energy burst fire (with a low DC that should be fixed soon) on cooldown when in a fight. I have great DC's for low epics and can mass hold most things at level. I use de-buffs, at 26 i will have LGS ash to lower mob MRR for greater damage I have 80 reaper points and I am spamming damage as fast as I can and with as many buffs and the best crafted/set gear pieces available. Overall its amazing damage on r1-r3 and ok damage at r4 and bad damage at r5. right now the devs see no Problems with sorcs as they are great from 1-30 on elite and low reaper where most people are playing I am looking to make these great for the endgame that is fun for the people that I play with, legendary reaper 7-10. The thing is, sorcs if very well geared with raid gear and crafted gear can achieve DC's in necro and enchant that land in high reapers, sorcs cast quickly and have shorter cooldowns on spells than other casters. this makes sorcs great DC casters in high reaper but sorcs are supposed to be DPS casters which they cannot currently be on high reaper due to current damage scaling in reaper mode.

    many people have said that adding more power to the savant trees will make an unbalance in heroics and i can agree with that to a point, those that bb r1 with a sorc will burn heroics to the ground, but i can burn heroics to the ground on r1 bb with a shortbus build as i have 80 reaper points to back me up. I'm talking about r5+ so what needs to happen? does the caster tree in reaper need a massive DPS ramp? add a few hundred universal spellpower and a heap of caster level/max caster level high up in the caster reaper tree? keep people that only play low reaper away from such power? I think the power should come from low cost SLA's that can do meaningful damage, current SLA's in the savant drop off in power so much that they are not worth using after level 20. Their caster levels need to be uncapped and we need more and more caster levels as we level up to 30 to keep the power level of the SLA's up to par. once good idea i have seen on the thread Strambotica linked is making more SLA's but putting them in cores so as not to allow very powerful SLA's at low levels. I like that idea. Make each savant get a level 1-6 power spell in each core of savant and for the t5, add the elemental form instead of the SLA

    add more gear that increases caster level and have more caster levels come built into high level things like destinies, epic levels, epic gear. clerics have the ability to have no max caster level on healing spells. can a fire savant also have no max caster level on fire spells please? can we add a caster level per epic level? can we get more items with +caster level on them? the devs have been hard at work trying to make casters use a quarterstaff, make a quarterstaff for each element that increases caster level and max caster level by 5 like we have with ice. (nearly useless by the way as it currently sits by the way as we already hit max caster level on most cold spells without it)
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  16. #16
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    Something I like to keep in mind when looking at caster trees is that a big, main draw of a caster class is their lineup of spells. An enhancement tree is then pretty justified in simply making those spells better.

    ALTHOUGH I don't normally find myself casting regular spells for damage due to their high cost, especially if I'm applying meta-magics to them.
    This philosophy only works when developers have self control. They have demonstrated repeatedly they do not. That is why they needed to add two separate mechanics after MotU was released that are not found in PnP. Even with those mechanics in place each expansion has been "hit or miss" for Sorcerer's. I almost forgot about the spell point adjustment they attempted a few years back for epics.

    Honestly, they have had more than one long stretch where they simply were (the best) CC casters in the game and there use as "DPS" was more for humor than reality. Agree, the 1 to 20 game they are amazing. Too bad the game hasn't been focused on that level range for nearly a decade. Content is designed for Epic and adjusted down, not the other way. I'm not sure SSG can find common ground simply because one or two updates later Sorcerers will be "in the hole" once again.

    And we still haven't discussed Reaper :/

    Yeah, if you roll a Sorcerer its for Racials, fun, or CC.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  17. #17
    Community Member Strambotica's Avatar
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    My character born as a Sorcerer.. but swap to a warlock for racials, since also im doing high reaper on lvl 30 (98 RP atm). I REALLY WISH that could do the same in a Sorcerer.

    Ok ok... Warlock isnt DPS and Sorcerer should be, Sorcerers burn all the mana at the first fight in high reaper, with Wlk at least have the eldritch blast free.

    Maybe giving them more things on last core or special feat in lvl 29-30 could help. (Dunno exactly wich thing, but something!!!!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strambotica View Post
    My character born as a Sorcerer.. but swap to a warlock for racials, since also im doing high reaper on lvl 30 (98 RP atm). I REALLY WISH that could do the same in a Sorcerer.

    Ok ok... Warlock isnt DPS and Sorcerer should be, Sorcerers burn all the mana at the first fight in high reaper, with Wlk at least have the eldritch blast free.

    Maybe giving them more things on last core or special feat in lvl 29-30 could help. (Dunno exactly wich thing, but something!!!!)
    Warlocks have a lot of tradeoffs with sorcs, but of the two overall sorcs are infinitely more powerful.

    Pros for warlocks include "free" damage via eldritch blast and the possibility to become moderately tanky via the enlightened spirit tree.

    Pros of Sorcerer include doing several dozen times more damage than a warlock in exchange for relying on spellpoints which thanks to reaper lost souls are effectively infinite in low to mid skull (up to R6) and still very hard to run out of even on R10.

    Cons for warlock include their dps being utterly atrocious unless you're running R1 heroics or EN epic dalies, at endgame a sorcerer may as well not even bother eldritch blasting because they're doing 5% of a 6 man groups dps, an endgame warlock exists purely as a masshold/charm bot. Additional con for warlocks is if they want to use ES to become moderately tanky then they need to utterly cripple their already abysmal dps and hurt their decent CC/DC potential.

    Cons for sorcs are... they're kinda squishy I guess? Not that it matters much when they one shot packs on mid skull reaper.

  19. #19
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavoredSoul View Post
    Warlocks have a lot of tradeoffs with sorcs, but of the two overall sorcs are infinitely more powerful.
    Does not sound like the r10 locks and sorcs I ran with. Both only attempt to damage at the boss fights if mana permits. Warlock => ruin, gruin. Sorcerer =>Iceberg/Meteor/Thunderstoke (usually just one of them, because wail and masshold is far more optimal on high reaper)

    Both speccing into necro, where Warlock has a clear edge over sorcerer, max mana is rarely useful in the popular reaper instances. (short, medium ones with shrines).

    Warlock builds are also better for raids and amping party dps, by a very significant margin.

    Warlock comes with better inherent defenses.

    And for fun, both arcanes are best in the divine casting destiny :P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Does not sound like the r10 locks and sorcs I ran with. Both only attempt to damage at the boss fights if mana permits. Warlock => ruin, gruin. Sorcerer =>Iceberg/Meteor/Thunderstoke (usually just one of them, because wail and masshold is far more optimal on high reaper)

    Both speccing into necro, where Warlock has a clear edge over sorcerer, max mana is rarely useful in the popular reaper instances. (short, medium ones with shrines).

    Warlock builds are also better for raids and amping party dps, by a very significant margin.

    Warlock comes with better inherent defenses.

    And for fun, both arcanes are best in the divine casting destiny :P.
    Have play long time a wiz then a warlock and now a sorcerer, i really prefered actually sorcerers even if i think i need to play again wiz (i suspect actually it's better then sorcerer). First it's depend what you want to play, if i want to play a tank, sure warlock is really better (long life to anu (really great warlock tank)) and in general warlock have better defense then sorcerer. But For dc , it's near the same, warlock are good dc casters but sorcerers too, and for dps clearly sorcerer are over. In low reapers (1/3), i'm sure the difference is not a pb for either classes, but in middle reaper (4/6), i really prefer my sorcerer, the dps make the difference and the sp cost is not really a pb (but depend if you solo or you are in a group) and you can use 3 efficient spells in rotation. In high reaper, i don't play enough r8/r10 to have a really good idea. sure depend of the built but i only use 2 spells for dps (it's why i imagine that now wiz are even better) but warlock don't use more, and the warlock pew pew is so low in high reaper that it don' t make a difference. i speak about champ and boss, for the others dc , instakill etc is near the same for the 2 classes.
    valdo

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