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  1. #1
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    Default Whither Ye Be Oh Classic Wizard's Staff?

    The staff is the classic Wizard accessory/weapon, but they have completely given way to the orb/Caster Stick combo. I suggest either:
    Increasing the power of staves to be comparable to a caster stick & orb combo (which would possibly render the stick & orb combo obsolete, so is the inferior option)
    Or
    Giving Wizards additional bonuses at roughly the same rate that Fighters gain bonus feats when the wizard is wielding a staff. Preferably, these bonuses would be based on what the staff itself provides. But I understand that might be hard to code, in which case, the bonuses would be relatively fixed. For example:

    A. Staff-Based: For example, if a staff provides spell power, in the hands of a Wizard it might provide an additional 5-20 points every 4-5 Wizard levels. If it provides Spell Lore, perhaps an additional +1% per 4-5 Wizard levels. If the staff provides Spell Focus or Spell Penetration, give an additional +1 per 4-5 Wizard levels.

    B. Wizard-Based: If coding per staff is unfeasible, then I would suggest that at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (alternately, 5, 10, 15, and 20), the Wizard may select +10 Spell Power and +1% Spell Lore or +1 Spell DC and +1 Spell Penetration but only when wielding a spellcaster-based staff (has to provide spell power, spell lore, spell focus, or spell penetration).

    Let the 'locks and the sorcs have their orb/stick combos, but let's give Wizards a reason to go old school again.

  2. #2
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about all of that, but I do feel that the scepter/orb combination is used the vast majority of the time compared to a staff. I mean, there's a few really good staves for certain builds (Echo of Wave for water sorcerers and druids, the Staff of Irian for favored souls and clerics, etc) but, on the whole, they're mostly not worth it compared to a scepter and orb.
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  3. #3
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    I support making staves worth using for a wizard again.

    Whether through this means, or just by letting wizards count staves as 1-handed weapons through a specific combat style (Call it Gandalf-style if you must)

  4. #4
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    All in favor for better casting staves, but no for Wizard exclusive. That would be a new source of possible and inevitable imbalance.

    If Wizards get any bonuses on top they should buy it for feats or action points, that would be ok.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    My opinion on staves...

    1. As a two handed item it needs to provide at a minimum 75% of the casting bonus of using two separate items. While its effects should be random, I also believe they should be complementary to each other which is why I say minimum 75% (the other reason is because of #2 below). This will help even them out as far as the duel single handed item or orb combo that can be used to maximize a caster's ability.

    2. Caster staves should have charges with 1 to 3 spells that can be cast from them. Spells should be random and level of the spell not higher then the min level of a caster for the min level of the staff. IE a level 1 staff should not have Finger of Death as a spell option.

  6. #6
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    First off, the title makes me read it in Elminster's voice, so I hate you right off the bat for that...

    Second, I think the best place to address this is in Enhancements for Wizards. There's already a little hint of this in things like Traditionalist Caster, but I think if, say, Archmage had a line that gave you sizeable bonuses while wielding a staff, it would be enough to encourage some users to drop orb+scepter. But since its tied to enhancements and not universal/inherent in the weapon itself, you're not creating a situation where you just trade one obsolete choice for another for everyone.

    Then you also need to itemize for it and create some staves that rival scepter+orb, for those wizards to use, too.

  7. #7
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Its a dead horse. caster staves suck in DDO.

    Things to fix staves..
    1. staff must be comparable to 2 single hander sticks.
    2. treat orbs like Rune arms not shields. (making it compatible with a staff/orb combination. like artificers and crossbows.)
    3. ability to cast scrolls without unequipping staff.


    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Description
    A long, stout staff used as a simple weapon. Often favored by wizards or common folk.
    *except in DDO where they are a bad choice*

    Staves for casters have been a fail from the beginning .
    Dev's have implemented some pathetic enhancements for casters that all failed to invigorate anyone from bothering with them.

    They tried adding Thaumaturgy with update 14.. that didn't do much to entice casters to go to staves..
    its more difficult to get 3 random effects to align on a qstaff, and payers are still be better off finding 2 single hand sticks with 2 desired random effects.. giving 4 effects..


    We have asked for years for quarterstaves to have double what single sticks have, but these plea's have been ignored.



    Sure there are some enhancements in the caster trees for quarterstaffs.. but they run counter to orb enhancements and are no better than plain cover everything enhancements..
    so why pigeon-hole your build with inferior choices

    Quarterstaffs have a prefix/suffix and usually a third effect and a chance of an augment slot.. well guess what so do two different single sticks that can be dual wielded...

    Can easily mix match caster power with offhand stat sticks on a single weapon without losing bonuses when swapping weapons..

    Cant cast scrolls/wands with quarterstaff equipped.

    Some niche quaterstaffs offer potential to be better.. like thunderforged but even these fall short when compared to dual wielding or stick/orb.

    set bonuses that include weapons/orbs.. qstaff only counts as 1 but takes 2 slots.

    Its too bad that orbs were not treated like runearms for casters so they could use quarterstaffs with the orbs and at least then be potentially useful with a qstaff..




    Ultimately if you are using a quarterstaff as a caster you are gimping your toon.
    after asking for 10 years.. I think most players have just given up on qstaves for casters
    the qstaff has to be compared to 2 single sticks to be worthy

    Maybe some day they will realize that the quarterstaff has to be as good as or better than equipping 2 comparably powered single hand sticks, or stick/orb to be even considered viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post

    Staves for casters are subpar since they do not = 2 single handers and of course.. screws with things like casting scrolls since it unequips the 2 hander to scroll cast...


    Perhaps you could take some time to look at how scrolls interact with staves.. and figure out a way to cast scrolls without unequipping the main hand weapon.
    we can drink potions while holding a 2hander or something in the main hand...

    and really.. look at the 2 handers and how they compare to 1 handers.. 2 handers should be 2x a 1 hander .. plain and simple... 2 prefixes, 2 suffixes, 2 slots.. etc....
    Last edited by JOTMON; 06-15-2019 at 12:10 PM.
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  8. #8
    Community Member Charltonsexton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Its a dead horse. caster staves suck in DDO.

    Things to fix staves..
    1. staff must be comparable to 2 single hander sticks.
    2. treat orbs like Rune arms not shields. (making it compatible with a staff/orb combination. like artificers and crossbows.)
    3. ability to cast scrolls without unequipping staff.
    Yes to all of that. I seem to remember a time when staves were worth carrying, but something changed that made carrying two caster sticks a no longer optional. I'm with yall, I miss the flavor of a staff. Right now I'm walking around like wizard Daredevil, except when I have my fancy bowling ball. Still like orbs though.
    Orien

  9. #9
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charltonsexton View Post
    Yes to all of that. I seem to remember a time when staves were worth carrying, but something changed that made carrying two caster sticks a no longer optional. I'm with yall, I miss the flavor of a staff. Right now I'm walking around like wizard Daredevil, except when I have my fancy bowling ball. Still like orbs though.
    The game has always been two sticks > one staff. The only exception to that rule is during levels where the staff in question raised your DC higher than the two caster staffs combined could. Most memorable for me personally was the release of MotU and PM's ran around with the Staff from The House of Death Undone because of the Necro DC. It was the easiest source for +3 Necro if you didn't have the Mabar Robes. Then you grabbed the robes and switched to the CitW Staff for Evocation/Enchantment.

    Honestly, I think that was the last time running with a staff was "common." Dang I feel old.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  10. #10
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    There used to be lootgen staves that gave two types of spell power as a single prefix, which meant that the other two effects could be anything.

    This, at least, gave you SOMETHING wearing two items would've.

  11. #11
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    Two solutions might be:

    * A container item allowing two one handed caster items to be temporarily combined into a single staff
    * A cosmetic item that just makes it look like the character is using a staff

    I'd like my caster to use a staff too. But with it being such a suboptimal choice and apparently no interest at SSG's end in fixing it I doubt he ever will.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  12. #12
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Two solutions might be:

    * A container item allowing two one handed caster items to be temporarily combined into a single staff
    * A cosmetic item that just makes it look like the character is using a staff

    I'd like my caster to use a staff too. But with it being such a suboptimal choice and apparently no interest at SSG's end in fixing it I doubt he ever will.

    Thanks.
    why bother with cosmetic to cover up the problem, fix the problem by making staves comperable.

    take two single sticks and duct tape...
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    why bother with cosmetic to cover up the problem, fix the problem by making staves comperable.

    take two single sticks and duct tape...
    For some people it's just the appearance that matters. I have no idea how technically feasible a container item is, but that is what I would prefer. A cosmetic solves part of the problem at least and may be much easier to do.

    The value of these suggestions consists in not multiplying the developers' work when it comes to making new items. It means they are not required to make multiple versions of named items for the groups who actually do want single handed caster sticks and also for those who would prefer staves.

    Instead, they could concentrate on making good single handed items which we could combine how it suits us best. You can be sure if the best caster items were only staves from now on there would be complaining by people who want to use two sticks, or a stick and an orb, or a weapon and an orb.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 06-15-2019 at 08:39 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    There used to be lootgen staves that gave two types of spell power as a single prefix, which meant that the other two effects could be anything.
    That is actually we do to named caster quarterstaves from U32 onwards. The two in Sharn's quests are Fire/Lightning and Acid/Cold, Attunement from the second Sharn raid is every element (kinda cheating - also you can't get one in-game yet, spoiler alert!), Wave is Cold/Lightning (and Cold/Lightning/Sonic if you get the raid variant), the Staff of Irian is Fire/Light, and the Slave Lords qstaff is Fire/Acid/Lightning. We double up on Spellpower/Spell Lore (so base 4 or 6 effects) and then fill up to 8 or 10 total effects with additional procs or DC bonuses.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  15. #15
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Hello Lynnabel.

    Is there a possiblity that players get additional specialities for caster staves such as any of insightful spell points and insightfull potency, may be some ghostly like avoidance ability by magical means ?

    As a player who enjoys wizard lives, I prefer using items such as Barovian scepter and Shield of morning. I also know a good amount of wizard players have to stick to wraith form and palemaster for avoidance and self healing ability of the shroud.

    If there was a better reason to use magical staves (and Archmage) I would love to do that.

    Thanks for the hardwork. Have a good one.

  16. #16
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That is actually we do to named caster quarterstaves from U32 onwards.
    Hand and a half sceptors, AKA the Bastard Staff. Costs a feat, only for wizards- When a sceptor is equiped receive XX spellpower (players choice at feat selection) scales with item level. Something something, etc.


  17. #17
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    I like orb block warding against magic stuffs, might be able to make blocking with staves reduce some more physical damage.

    Also, I could see a staff projecting radiant force field while blocking but quickly draining spell points.

  18. #18
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That is actually we do to named caster quarterstaves from U32 onwards. The two in Sharn's quests are Fire/Lightning and Acid/Cold, Attunement from the second Sharn raid is every element (kinda cheating - also you can't get one in-game yet, spoiler alert!), Wave is Cold/Lightning (and Cold/Lightning/Sonic if you get the raid variant), the Staff of Irian is Fire/Light, and the Slave Lords qstaff is Fire/Acid/Lightning. We double up on Spellpower/Spell Lore (so base 4 or 6 effects) and then fill up to 8 or 10 total effects with additional procs or DC bonuses.
    Its long past due, and covers what.. 2 of 12 combinations… until your so called future 'kinda cheating' hail Mary endgame raid upgraded raid staff
    (which may or may not be better.. I am guessing it will be neutered compared to single focussed sticks power)
    Its a wait and see for your new power toy to see if it stacks and covers other things like Force/Postive/Negative (and the will it stack with potency/generic lore gear items)


    /harsh reality

    and still you miss the point...
    one future work in progress endgame raid upgraded staff doesn't cover the original problem that in the current game... all historical staves are inferior for levelling/random/named/crafted compared to dual wielding sticks.

    Those few staves that are almost comparable are lacking and exponentially more difficult then aligning a pair of single sticks.

    Take Cannith crafting for instance.. cant craft lore and an insightful power on the same stick.. so.. 2 sticks win vs a staff.

    Qstaves have 1 augment slot ..same as the single sticks that lets you have a slot on each one.

    Greensteel a one hander greensteel stick and qstaff is essentially identical.. so why would anyone craft a staff when 2x options are available with single handers..

    Offhanding a one hander stick to use a scroll is an option.. a common one is a heal amp stick with heal scroll.. or back I the day when UMD was hard... a CHA stick to get enough UMD to use the scroll..



    Ultimately offering a couple endgame raid qstaves does little to stem the flow of 'years of fail' that has built up for every other qstaff in the game.
    We want to be able to use qstaffs throughout the game for more than just 'cometics'

    but the unfortunate reality is that until every qstaff is 2x what an optimized pair of comparable single sticks can offer, qstaves will continue to fail.

    /rant off
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  19. #19
    Community Member Charltonsexton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That is actually we do to named caster quarterstaves from U32 onwards. The two in Sharn's quests are Fire/Lightning and Acid/Cold, Attunement from the second Sharn raid is every element (kinda cheating - also you can't get one in-game yet, spoiler alert!), Wave is Cold/Lightning (and Cold/Lightning/Sonic if you get the raid variant), the Staff of Irian is Fire/Light, and the Slave Lords qstaff is Fire/Acid/Lightning. We double up on Spellpower/Spell Lore (so base 4 or 6 effects) and then fill up to 8 or 10 total effects with additional procs or DC bonuses.
    Great to hear about those, it's awesome that an effort is being mad to make these a real option. The staves in Sharn Welcome and Red Rain might be grind worthy for me. It would be nice if we could craft something though, with a couple of caster needs like lore, potency, dc's, or spell pen. As nice as those are, we'd still be losing out to a stick and orb combo. Hell, I wouldn't even incurring some kind of melee penalty on exchange for some really useful staves.
    Orien

  20. #20
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That is actually we do to named caster quarterstaves from U32 onwards. The two in Sharn's quests are Fire/Lightning and Acid/Cold, Attunement from the second Sharn raid is every element (kinda cheating - also you can't get one in-game yet, spoiler alert!), Wave is Cold/Lightning (and Cold/Lightning/Sonic if you get the raid variant), the Staff of Irian is Fire/Light, and the Slave Lords qstaff is Fire/Acid/Lightning. We double up on Spellpower/Spell Lore (so base 4 or 6 effects) and then fill up to 8 or 10 total effects with additional procs or DC bonuses.
    The Eclipse staff from the 2nd sharn raid be all elements? That's a bit difficult to comprehend from a balance perspective that a staff will have ALL elements on it. I think you mean it will be able to be customized, as in combustion/fire lore or glaciation/ice lore or will it be two elements on one staff like Wave or Irian?
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 06-16-2019 at 10:35 AM.
    Primary Home: Argonnessen
    Also known as: Archarias, Ishtaris, Arthies, Artharias, Astanius, and Fidgity.
    "Elder brains are a lot like bouncy castles. They just sit there, but if you jump up and down on them, things get interesting real quick." ~FlimsyFirewood

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