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Thread: Closing the gap

  1. #61
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I'm saying it's a lot more front-loaded than 1% per life, assuming you're getting relevant PL's. Maybe 5% per life for the first 6 then drops to 2-3% for the next 6 then drops really far? But again, depends heavily on if you're sticking to the same stuff, or smattering across, or playing a healbot that gains almost nothing from PL's. Like a dedicated Wizard player's first 6 are amazing, and then what? Druid PL's so your skele can hit levers? That's a bit less than a 1% power gain IMO. Artificer for UMD? Could make an argument, but that's more a power window for 1-2 levels.
    I never disagreed with power not being linear per life, but your comments act as if this is a critical point. You keep focusing on only that aspect, and not how much gameplay (time) it would actually take to bridge the gap. Players switch up builds, and try out different things, and in reality, they need many of these past lives if they are not dividing their time between multiple characters. In either case, the net amount of time to create similar levels of power is in the 10+ life range, which is a good year of play at your current pace, much less for someone without the meta game knowledge. The vital statistic is that someone new should probably expect to play for over a year before obtaining meaningful levels of past life power. This is the gap people are talking about in this thread - the fact that 100+ lives are not needed is irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Also depends heavily on what you run and how you run it. If you're heavily F2P with a few older packs, or running EBB instead of R4, or staying at 30 for a while it's all different. Even Pally PL, which is IMO the strongest for 95% of toons, 3x of them isn't nearly as important at level 30 with 200 healamp vs at level 4 with 20.
    Using our examples, it's over a year of play time, just for the relevant lives and finding a relevant build. I wouldn't recommend R4 for a brand new player, so we apparently have very different ideas of examples that are relevant to discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    My first TR was a few years into my DDO experience. I had ~70 toons spread across all the servers, the highest of which was all of 12, before I dropped to one main and started towards TRing. I TR every few months, but not on a regular schedule (I've done an Epic life in a week a few times). Sometimes I sit at cap and raid for a while.
    So with all this experience, a TR per few months is now 2 years of play for finding a build and getting a dozen lives. It sure sounds like the level of grind to get just the relevant past lives is in the years, no????


    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I did offer a solution, one that's been proposed since the release thereof. Flip the order of Racial PL's. Racial AP > Ability > Skill, that way it's frontloaded instead of backloaded and players would be encouraged to try out races (good) instead of doing triples regardless of whether you like the race or not (IMO bad). I also agree with Stingae's solution proposed below, where the first five lives are cheap instead of just the first two.
    Racial past lives are only a small part of the overall equation, but I do want to thank you for being more constructive.



    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    For certain, and I called that out my my first comment; that from the people leaving that isn't the reason I've heard, but that doesn't mean it isn't their reason. I've heard plenty of people complain that it's a huge grind if you want to get to the end of DDO, but again that's not the reason most people I see leaving give for leaving. I will also continue to argue that stuff like Ravenloft has done more for fixing that gap than most stuff Turbine did.
    I am using power gap due to grind as a proxy for grind being a reason people leave. It seems to be the one we should be discussing in a thread about power gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    People complaining (or lauding) on any forum are the extremes of the bell curve. Just because the viewpoint is most visible doesn't mean it's the most widespread. That's what I'm trying to include as well; forums mainly draw from certain parts of a community, and being the loudest part of said community doesn't make it the majority thereof. Like we had a string of sock account troll posting here, does that mean their viewpoint is the majority one?
    This also implies that your viewpoint is extreme. What you apply to others applies equally to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I'm a long-standing member in a new-player guild. I talk to new players all the time, run stuff with them, teach them raids, help them out, etc etc. For certain I've run into the grindwall of "yeah, if you want to play a Wizard you really need to do the legwork up front" but at the same time there's plenty more that can be "let's go run some Ravenloft and get you a scepter to help your DC issues!"
    I'm glad you do this, but I seriously doubt most new players are in a new player guild that runs R4 (your example) or takes them through Ravenloft. Can you see how one might think your conclusions based solely on your experience, and from your statements that anything else you hear is extreme might be heavily biased as the typical new player experience?

    Listening to others without trying to minimize their voices is very difficult. The power gap exists, and it is much bigger than when you started playing. It's more difficult to find groups at similar skill levels - which reduces the fun factor for those that want to contribute. Many new players have to skip the latest content, because they have been designed out of it through difficulty increase. ToEE is the first I saw this happen, and it has become more common since then, as content is being designed around all the past life and reaper power. You can find these comments from new players on the forum if you listen.
    Last edited by nokowi; 06-12-2019 at 07:16 PM.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  2. #62
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    This post makes me sad - I guess I've earned nearly 1 billion xp and I wish it was $ instead.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Not a bad idea to close the gap on toon power but probably a bad idea overall for a couple of reasons I can think of. First they aren't playing the game to get that power so they aren't gaining the gear or knowledge that really helps. I remember when just before MOTU dropped they released the first XP stones that you had to give away for someone else to use and the "stoners" were suddenly flooding Shroud runs making NORMAL an iffy proposal never mind the Hard and Elite we were completing before then. It was the start of Raid channels being THE place to get a group and I don't want us to push that even farther away.


    Second there is little to no incentive for them to buy the "stuff" that gets you there over time so I expect it would be a major decrease in revenue between the new player and the longer term player who showed up before him. For me the hope is that more new players sticking is getter for the game and ultimately more revenue in Turbines pockets so that would really be my main concern.

    That being said if that is what Turbine can come up with it's better than nothing though I might make it a 70% value so there is definite incentive to run the lives for real. Maybe make it = to 1 of every Heroic Class life + completionist feat. It's pretty solid gain but not quite as nice as the x3 lives.
    The amount I suggested was just an example. If SSG were to take that seriously, which they won't, then I'm sure a proper number can be adjudicated.

    Another thought is something that someone else made - I'm certain - sarcastically. Boost power by server. Calculate the average amount of power of characters per server, and provide that as the adjusted floor for character power.

    --

    This issue is a topic that recurs here with some frequency in one form or another (I see 3 similar threads at the moment). The fact is, the game population is low enough that people want server merges. The fact is, there is a huge power gap between a new player's new character and a veteran's multi-completionist character, and a disproportionate amount of that power comes from logging many, many hours in-game, and there is no practical way for a new player to narrow that gap. If a new player cannot get close to top-tier power, regardless of "skill", then they are faced with the choices of a) allocating a huge (and, probably, unexpected) investment in time and/or money, b) foregoing the social aspects of an on-line MMO, c) moving onto something else.

    What would you do, when faced with those choices? No need to answer, just check the social panel for the correct response.

    I'm sorry, but the 'but but but how will the noob learn' argument is fallacious. Why should a new player be required some period of indentured servitude before being allowed to have the same numerics as someone that has every PL? More importantly, the best way for a 'noob' to 'git gud' is to group with experienced players.

    And here's where the game [DEVS!] perversely incentivizes its own demise. What's the incentive for a group of vets to take on an obvious power liability? Even if the noob takes instruction (no guarantees), chances are their character's numbers won't suffice. Power players are driven away from new players, because who wants to waste that +50 pot teaching the noob to git gud? The grind awaits, but pot timers don't. Huzzah!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    ?Hey everyone, first off I am well aware this should probably be in suggestions but let’s face it that forum is deader than dead and I’d like some feedback on this idea.
    <snip>
    What I am suggesting is to give the new players, even the casual players, a chance to play catch up. How you might ask? Well what I suggest is that we change the 1-20 XP curve. If you average out those 42 lives they run at just over 3.7 million each. What I am suggesting is that they all become the XP that a second life currently sits at: 2.85 million. Heck I’d be really happy if they just stayed at the 1.9 million but I expect the blowback from that idea would be outright painful.

    The reason for this is to make that early life grinding a little easier for them to play catch up. Shave some time off getting those 8 to 10 Heroic / Racial lives that make a difference in jumping into EPICs so they can make the transition to them without having to simply be carried through. It gives them a reasonable target to shoot for that has light at the end of the tunnel.
    <snip>
    Any way that's my idea. A relatively minor grind reduction with the hope that it aids in new player retention.
    First, yeah, Suggestions is where threads go to die, forget a server merge, this game needs a forum merge.

    As to the problem you raise, I agree it's a huge problem and getting worse by the day. Something really needs to be done.

    Unfortunately, I don't agree with your solution. Your solution would kick in and start giving some relief after a few hundred hours of play, by which point most new players have already given up. We need solutions that kick in within a few dozen hours of play. To get even a single past life a new player would have to get to level 20, and would have been badly outclassed and demoralized for at least half a dozen levels, maybe a full dozen. I help a lot of new players, they usually stay with me questing for a few levels, we chat for a while after our levels diverge, and they stop logging in usually somewhere between level 8 and 12, usually 2-4 months in. A few make it past level 12 and 6 months, but it's rare.

    I think a viable solution has to kick in by level 5 or 6 of the first life at the latest.

    I'm not sure what solution could work now, but it has to keep new players from feeling like they can't cut it. Nobody plays a FRPG to be Coyle. New players look at the LFM and see a ton of R1 or higher quests, and realize that's the current normal, so they try it and die horribly without a single kill to their credit. Even if the leader is nice about it, they feel like failures. That's what power creep has done to this game, and to it's ability to retain new players.

    Not falling for power creep in the first place is the only true solution, but that ship sailed long ago so anything else is going to be a Band-aid while we hope the wound stops festering.

    I guess some form of scaling would help - players on their first life or two and/or low power gear get an automatic boost to damage dealt and a resistance to damage received, proportional to how few lives they have and how poor their gear is. Many major games have gear power ranking and per character scaling - it's a tried and true technique, no brain strain required.

    A well designed game has noticeable power increase as characters progress to motivate progress, but it isn't so pronounced that is appears unreachable and causes players to give up. Having the top 5% doing 50% more damage/survival than the median player is about right, too much less and there is no incentive to progress, too much more and it appears unreachable to the majority of newer players.

    In the long run, introducing new baseline power without scaling the top end is necessary, but that takes a long time and careful balance, per-character scaling could be the life support while that happens. You can't take away something people have earned, but you can introduce new baseline effects that don't stack and come close, closing the gap that way. But the gap needs to be closed or we'll starve ourselves of new players and the game will wither and die.
    I am profoundly disappointed with the current state and direction of DDO, and my purchasing habits reflect this. A drastic improvement in quality of life, transparency, and honest communication would improve my spending. Promises and "more squeeze" will not.

  5. #65
    Community Member Potatofasf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucidLTS View Post
    First, yeah, Suggestions is where threads go to die, forget a server merge, this game needs a forum merge.

    As to the problem you raise, I agree it's a huge problem and getting worse by the day. Something really needs to be done.

    Unfortunately, I don't agree with your solution. Your solution would kick in and start giving some relief after a few hundred hours of play, by which point most new players have already given up. We need solutions that kick in within a few dozen hours of play. To get even a single past life a new player would have to get to level 20, and would have been badly outclassed and demoralized for at least half a dozen levels, maybe a full dozen. I help a lot of new players, they usually stay with me questing for a few levels, we chat for a while after our levels diverge, and they stop logging in usually somewhere between level 8 and 12, usually 2-4 months in. A few make it past level 12 and 6 months, but it's rare.

    I think a viable solution has to kick in by level 5 or 6 of the first life at the latest.

    I'm not sure what solution could work now, but it has to keep new players from feeling like they can't cut it. Nobody plays a FRPG to be Coyle. New players look at the LFM and see a ton of R1 or higher quests, and realize that's the current normal, so they try it and die horribly without a single kill to their credit. Even if the leader is nice about it, they feel like failures. That's what power creep has done to this game, and to it's ability to retain new players.

    Not falling for power creep in the first place is the only true solution, but that ship sailed long ago so anything else is going to be a Band-aid while we hope the wound stops festering.

    I guess some form of scaling would help - players on their first life or two and/or low power gear get an automatic boost to damage dealt and a resistance to damage received, proportional to how few lives they have and how poor their gear is. Many major games have gear power ranking and per character scaling - it's a tried and true technique, no brain strain required.

    A well designed game has noticeable power increase as characters progress to motivate progress, but it isn't so pronounced that is appears unreachable and causes players to give up. Having the top 5% doing 50% more damage/survival than the median player is about right, too much less and there is no incentive to progress, too much more and it appears unreachable to the majority of newer players.

    In the long run, introducing new baseline power without scaling the top end is necessary, but that takes a long time and careful balance, per-character scaling could be the life support while that happens. You can't take away something people have earned, but you can introduce new baseline effects that don't stack and come close, closing the gap that way. But the gap needs to be closed or we'll starve ourselves of new players and the game will wither and die.
    The DDO Power Creep is similar to what was done with Diablo III. First they had normal-hard-expert-master-torment, with time people was running naked at Torment, so Blizzard come up with Torments levels 1 to 8, now Diablo III has the Nephalem Rifts, a system where the challenge is reach you maximum difficult content by gameplay, last time a ran my reach was 102-103. SSG did the same with Reaper (a Torment 1 to 10, copy and paste?) because is the easy way to keep the Uber players running.

    New, casual and returning players are no concern for them... that is a fact.
    Last edited by Potatofasf; 06-13-2019 at 11:48 AM.
    (Sarlona) ACTIVE TRleveling Valenttina (Warlock - Past Lifes Monk X3 / Ranger x3 / Rogue) - Just for Cannith Crafting Usbing (Unarmed DPS - Past Lifes Fighter X3 / Monk X2 / Paladin) Stucked at Level 24 Iconic...- Outdated Build inactive Adnanref (Evoker - Past Lifes Wizard X3 / Cleric X2 / Favored Soul / BladeForged) Stucked at Level 15 Iconic...

  6. #66
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    I never disagreed with power not being linear per life, but your comments act as if this is a critical point. You keep focusing on only that aspect, and not how much gameplay (time) it would actually take to bridge the gap. Players switch up builds, and try out different things, and in reality, they need many of these past lives if they are not dividing their time between multiple characters. In either case, the net amount of time to create similar levels of power is in the 10+ life range, which is a good year of play at your current pace, much less for someone without the meta game knowledge. The vital statistic is that someone new should probably expect to play for over a year before obtaining meaningful levels of past life power. This is the gap people are talking about in this thread - the fact that 100+ lives are not needed is irrelevant.
    Much of this thread is talking about how it's going from 135 possible to 153 possible. Part of my argument is that the difference between those two is a lot less meaningful than indicated by the quantities. If we're agreeing that 10+ is where the PL spike starts dropping, we should be discussing more about how to get new players to say 10 PL's, instead of looking at how to make everything cheaper. In fact an easy argument could be made that the later lives should be more expensive, but I'm sure that would have far more outcry than anything proposed.

    Using our examples, it's over a year of play time, just for the relevant lives and finding a relevant build. I wouldn't recommend R4 for a brand new player, so we apparently have very different ideas of examples that are relevant to discussion.
    Ok, so Normal vs Elite; the relevant part is a difficulty jump. But while I wouldn't recommend R4 for a new player, I would say R4 in a party is pretty doable for people getting out of new player status, at the 10 PL's like your previous paragraph.

    So with all this experience, a TR per few months is now 2 years of play for finding a build and getting a dozen lives. It sure sounds like the level of grind to get just the relevant past lives is in the years, no????
    Hence why I'm in favor of reducing the up front cost of lives. However, in our shared experience of doing many alts, making TR's cheaper wouldn't really change much. It's only once a player starts TRing that it matters, so I'd argue that time prior to that is irrelevant for using as a measuring stick.

    Racial past lives are only a small part of the overall equation, but I do want to thank you for being more constructive.
    Three of them yes, thirty no. There's a pretty decent difference between a build with 1 RAP and 10 RAP. Quite a few builds rely thereon, for that matter.

    For that matter I didn't see you posting any solutions, or even directly agreeing with the OP's? While I appreciate the debate, it's become a 1v1 largely lol instead of trying to make something better.

    Something else I'd like to see is lower grade tome store prices dropping. It's ridiculous that a +4 supreme tome costs 80% of a +8 tome, when it's IMO less than 30% of the value (given that lower tomes are a lot easier to obtain). Cheaper tomes would help out new players getting into it who aren't willing to drop $50 for a tome lol.

    I am using power gap due to grind as a proxy for grind being a reason people leave. It seems to be the one we should be discussing in a thread about power gap.
    What I've seen of people stating that there's a grind to endgame has been a statement not as much a complaint. Like if reaching endgame was easy, what's the point?

    This also implies that your viewpoint is extreme. What you apply to others applies equally to you.
    For certain! Everyone is biased, and I'm included in that. I'm hugely outspoken especially given how I'm basically a super-casual per Grailhawk's metric (4 hours/day for casual, 2/day for super casual). We all like to think that everyone agrees with us, but that's true of basically nobody.

    I'm glad you do this, but I seriously doubt most new players are in a new player guild that runs R4 (your example) or takes them through Ravenloft. Can you see how one might think your conclusions based solely on your experience, and from your statements that anything else you hear is extreme might be heavily biased as the typical new player experience?
    We certainly don't have many (any?) brand new players running R4, but we have a number of vets on low-life alts or newer players a few lives in running R4 lol. And it's straight up my first recommendation to new players: join an active guild. I'm on the default server atmo, and we recruit a lot because it helps a lot.

    I'm not trying to argue that everything I disagree with is extreme, just that extremist viewpoints tend to be over-represented on any forum. Mine included :P Also just because it's extreme doesn't mean it's wrong, and also there are plenty of non-extreme things I disagree with (like the OP's idea; I think it would widen the gap rather than shrinking it).

    I mean my conclusions are biased based on my experiences, that's what experience means. And yours are based on your experiences, and biased as such. Not sure what your point there is? Basing conclusions entirely on other people's experiences seems a bit hard to get anywhere near accurate, as you have no way to verify their statements.

    Listening to others without trying to minimize their voices is very difficult. The power gap exists, and it is much bigger than when you started playing. It's more difficult to find groups at similar skill levels - which reduces the fun factor for those that want to contribute. Many new players have to skip the latest content, because they have been designed out of it through difficulty increase. ToEE is the first I saw this happen, and it has become more common since then, as content is being designed around all the past life and reaper power. You can find these comments from new players on the forum if you listen.
    While I agree the power gap exists and some parts are wider (more PL's available etc), IMO the gear gap is a lot smaller. When I started off, vets with twink gear > anyone without it. Masterful Craftsmanship, Festival Icy Burst, guild augment slotted items etc etc which you could basically only get by playing for long periods of time. These days with just RL gear (which, again, is pretty reasonably farmable) you're nearly as good as you can get. Throw up a LFM and it's pretty easy to get a few people to pull a chest a couple of times for you, and even if you're normally only doing HN or HH with a few buddies most people can do Elite for the 33% named drop rate.

    For certain I'd like to "kickstart" new players a bit more, which is why I'm in favor of changes biased towards new players (like making the first 5 lives cheaper instead of the current 2) or front-loading PL's. I'm sure there are other good solutions, but the OP's solution of making 42 lives cheaper would IMO widen the gap because not-new-players (like me) who don't have all 42 will benefit more (like how a 50% pot almost doubles leveling speed b/c of more efficient quest running etc) compared to new players who will level almost exactly 1/3 faster in a direct correlation to the XP change; they're not running SCx6 like a vet might be. I agree it would help narrow the gap between [players who don't have all 42 HPL's] and [players who do] but I don't think that's the major issue here? I think the gap is more significant between like [players with 0-5 PL's] and [players with 10+] or something; more of a sliding scale than an even split, but you get my point.

    ToEE is pretty noticeable, but I'd argue Sharn is worse. It's the current endgame and it's totally ridiculous for anyone anywhere new. It's also extra divisive between the long-time vets who own it and others who don't ($40 min isn't cheap) and those who are waiting to grab it with points in a few months. I totally agree it's a pretty wide divide there.

    But Ravenloft is nearly as good, still quite popular, and a TON more new-player friendly, at least in my experience. Even the raids, I've run plenty of first-life new players through and nearly every PUG I've been in has been successful (except for one LN run where we killed Strahd 13x before quitting lol).
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  7. #67
    Community Member kelavas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatofasf View Post
    Like you said, Warframe has over 100 thousand pleople playing on PC alone... DDO is losing people faster and faster because the grind and power creep (at least it is a 13yo game, this population lost is natural).

    All I can see in foruns and in-game after comeback in May/2019 is that...

    1 - Devs don't care about new or returning players
    2 - Elitist players don't care about new or returning players
    3 - New and returning players are leaving for other newer/recent/friendly games
    4 - Some people throwing nice ideas at forum and been hammered/smacked/criticized

    Everybody is seeing the PLs - Hamster Wheel - is a broken concept that need to be addressed without hurt Old/Elitist Players at same time be friendly to new/returning players.
    I am late on the response, but here are a few opinions on your four numbers.

    1.) I completely agree with this statement, they tried their best in Korthos but from then on there the game becomes increasingly challenging, even on normal new players because of 'new and unequipped with knowledge' status.
    2.) This is highly untrue. Maybe on your server where you come from, but Argonnessen does its' best to help new players, we all do. I get questions on a day to day basis from random players, not many people get frequent tells but they are somehow attracted to me. (lol)
    3.) This is also true. A couple of players on Argonnessen have left because of the creep and grinding.
    4.) This one.. This is both positive and no. I've seen good ideas with good and bad comments, but also bad ideas with good and bad comments.

    They also seem to ignore threads in suggestions :joy: just kidding Lynn, love ya! ->> Lynn said my thread would be discussed (2 FACTOR AUTHENTICATION) and it's been a month and a half, but no response.
    "A child's eyes light up when they see their Grandpa."

  8. #68
    Community Member Potatofasf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelavas View Post
    I am late on the response, but here are a few opinions on your four numbers.

    1.) I completely agree with this statement, they tried their best in Korthos but from then on there the game becomes increasingly challenging, even on normal new players because of 'new and unequipped with knowledge' status.
    2.) This is highly untrue. Maybe on your server where you come from, but Argonnessen does its' best to help new players, we all do. I get questions on a day to day basis from random players, not many people get frequent tells but they are somehow attracted to me. (lol)
    3.) This is also true. A couple of players on Argonnessen have left because of the creep and grinding.
    4.) This one.. This is both positive and no. I've seen good ideas with good and bad comments, but also bad ideas with good and bad comments.

    They also seem to ignore threads in suggestions :joy: just kidding Lynn, love ya! ->> Lynn said my thread would be discussed (2 FACTOR AUTHENTICATION) and it's been a month and a half, but no response.
    My first play experience was in Argonnessen, but at the time 2010/11 we had some problems with some toxic players and two friends and I moved to Sarlona, isn't a bad server at all.
    When I said that Elitist players don't care (point 2) is that is indifferent to them if the power creepy and the Hamster Wheel drive the new/casual/returning players way from the game. Elitists/Reaperist already have the game their way, any new power difficult added they will overcome and move on playing. They want the new/causual player to "Get Gud" so they will "help" to certain points, but fi the player didn't Get Gud fast... they are good as gone... doesn't matter.
    (Sarlona) ACTIVE TRleveling Valenttina (Warlock - Past Lifes Monk X3 / Ranger x3 / Rogue) - Just for Cannith Crafting Usbing (Unarmed DPS - Past Lifes Fighter X3 / Monk X2 / Paladin) Stucked at Level 24 Iconic...- Outdated Build inactive Adnanref (Evoker - Past Lifes Wizard X3 / Cleric X2 / Favored Soul / BladeForged) Stucked at Level 15 Iconic...

  9. #69
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelavas View Post
    They also seem to ignore threads in suggestions :joy: just kidding Lynn, love ya! ->> Lynn said my thread would be discussed (2 FACTOR AUTHENTICATION) and it's been a month and a half, but no response.
    I've been waiting for 2.5 years.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  10. #70
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    As a long time, casual player, yes please! I've always thought that the 2nd life XP requirements in the 1-20 range made for a perfect advancement rate. You have to run some quests to level up, but 3rd+ life XP requirements feels like a slog. Now I have to say that Reaper has helped with this as you can get an extra 25% XP bonus, so that helps, but it's still a bit of a slog for me to level a character up.

    In regards to "catching up", I don't really care about that. The fact of the matter is that if someone puts a lot more hours into playing, they are going to always have more past lives, reaper points, etc. It will never be possible to "catch up", but instead I view changing the heroic leveling requirement as something that makes leveling up more enjoyable, as you can advance your character faster.
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

  11. #71
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    1) Implement Buddy Bonus permanently: +5% per active live player in your group

    2) scaling quest bonus:
    additional + baseXP * (1-yourPastLifeCount/MaxPastLifeCountInGame)

    Take 2 and apply the highest bonus (furthest behind character) to everyone in the group (encourages vets to play with noobs), scaling it too with 1st vs 3rd life, yet everyone levels at same pace

    3) Highlight a challenge pack per week per level group (1-5,6-10,10-15 ect) to boost XP by a margin say 20%. (More VIPs)

    4) Lighten up the penalties for level ranges in your group

    5) Normalize XP in quests (less dailies in epics, less rote grinding)

    Even with all of the above, it would still take years.
    Last edited by scut207; 06-13-2019 at 02:44 PM.

  12. #72
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    The number one thing the devs can do to help close the gap is decrease the cost of unbound cannith crafting.

    If someone took the time to max out crafting I am sure a good portion of them would be will to help out a new player by gifting them a con, of false life of the the appropriate level if it didn't cost so much. The generosity of the remaining ddo player base is vast. When i first came back a few months ago I was surprisingly still in the guild I had previously been in and they went out of their way to help me jump back into the game. I try to do the same by passing gear I cannot currently use all the time and helping out lfms I see posted with people looking for specific things. Expecting to a new player to grind out useful gear as they level is not appropriate when compared to years ago when I last played and you could find many useful things in the plat auction house. Give experienced players the tools they need to plug in less experienced players. Another thing please give the occasional high roll on a collectable loot to get multiple collectables. 3-5 uncommon or rare collectables of the appropriate level in one click would be a great boon. I had to grind out 5 silver flame hymnals the other week and it probably took me an hour to do so that is not fun game play.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epitome View Post
    As a person that long ago gave up alts (my choice, wasn't forced into that decision) because of my OCD nature of collecting as many lives as possible I'm currently on life:

    110 / 135

    Also we should forget what is on deck for more past lives...

    3x Heroic PL for Alchemist
    3x Iconic PL for Alchemist Iconic (likely/assuming)
    12x Epic Past Lives

    Total of 153

    Even though I've completed a bulk of what is available and will continue to do so I'd still be fine with them making it more accessible. Or at least throwing a bone to those that have done this work wishing to have a similar experience with an alt (probably another unpopular opinion).
    Thus far Iconic's have been tied only to the initial 9 free-to-play classes. I don't think we will get an Alchemist Iconic (though hopefully the ones for barbarian and sorcerer are not far off).

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucidLTS View Post
    I'm not sure what solution could work now, but it has to keep new players from feeling like they can't cut it. Nobody plays a FRPG to be Coyle. New players look at the LFM and see a ton of R1 or higher quests, and realize that's the current normal, so they try it and die horribly without a single kill to their credit. Even if the leader is nice about it, they feel like failures. That's what power creep has done to this game, and to it's ability to retain new players.
    As a new player, I want to say that I agree with this 100%. This is the problem to me. They aren't many LFMs below Elite, and most are R1+. The ones that are Normal (at least in Epics) are typically dailies, people on the rez train grinding out XP with pots running. You might tag along as a newb, but it's not fun to be left in the dust and contribute nothing. It's even worse if you die and have to be rez'd, and become a clear liability to the group. The #1 thing that kept and still keeps me from grouping is the fear of me ruining other people's fun. I live with this fear every time I think of joining a group. Lack of meta knowledge combined with the power gap has put me in situations where I was frankly embarrassed by my poor performance and stopped playing for the night after the quest ended. It's a bad feeling. It's not fun.

    I want to make clear that I do not blame any other players for this. My experiences have been almost universally good in my LFM interactions with other players, both joining and when being joined when I post my own, usually when I was farming gear in RL. There are so many helpful vets out there who've contributed so much to my growth both in-game and here on the forum. The poster that I'm replying to right now is one of them, who spent time helping me to farm gems in Crystal Cove, and then hours more helping me farm Divine Artillery, and to whom I will always be grateful. But it's my low opinion of my own ability that is created by my clear inferiority to others in quest that gives me this bad feeling, and still often keeps me from enjoying the game with others.
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  15. #75
    Community Member Potatofasf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    As a new player, I want to say that I agree with this 100%. This is the problem to me. They aren't many LFMs below Elite, and most are R1+. The ones that are Normal (at least in Epics) are typically dailies, people on the rez train grinding out XP with pots running. You might tag along as a newb, but it's not fun to be left in the dust and contribute nothing. It's even worse if you die and have to be rez'd, and become a clear liability to the group. The #1 thing that kept and still keeps me from grouping is the fear of me ruining other people's fun. I live with this fear every time I think of joining a group. Lack of meta knowledge combined with the power gap has put me in situations where I was frankly embarrassed by my poor performance and stopped playing for the night after the quest ended. It's a bad feeling. It's not fun.

    I want to make clear that I do not blame any other players for this. My experiences have been almost universally good in my LFM interactions with other players, both joining and when being joined when I post my own, usually when I was farming gear in RL. There are so many helpful vets out there who've contributed so much to my growth both in-game and here on the forum. The poster that I'm replying to right now is one of them, who spent time helping me to farm gems in Crystal Cove, and then hours more helping me farm Divine Artillery, and to whom I will always be grateful. But it's my low opinion of my own ability that is created by my clear inferiority to others in quest that gives me this bad feeling, and still often keeps me from enjoying the game with others.
    I feel you! Having the same fear... just hiresoloing the stuff I can. Grouping has been disappointing.
    (Sarlona) ACTIVE TRleveling Valenttina (Warlock - Past Lifes Monk X3 / Ranger x3 / Rogue) - Just for Cannith Crafting Usbing (Unarmed DPS - Past Lifes Fighter X3 / Monk X2 / Paladin) Stucked at Level 24 Iconic...- Outdated Build inactive Adnanref (Evoker - Past Lifes Wizard X3 / Cleric X2 / Favored Soul / BladeForged) Stucked at Level 15 Iconic...

  16. #76
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Here are some ways to encourage playing at cap and playing a wider range of quests, while reducing the "grindy" nature.

    Some mods to the Reincarnation system:

    1. Epic reincarnation:
    --- Make the LR optional. Before hitting the reincarnate button there needs to be a checkbox to return to level 20 WITHOUT doing the LR. All your choices are saved. This is simply a time saver for the process. It does not actually speed up the rate of acquiring lives.
    --- Make an option to get the epic past life, but stay at level 30. Not sure what the added cost would be. Maybe putting the sphere to -2mil xp, thus making it cost 8 mil. Maybe allowing you to put more xp in the spheres, then ER back to 20 is 6 mil and ER+stay at 30 is 8 or 10 mil. Depending on how you look at this one, you may or may not feel this speeds up the process, but, either way it does provide a new option to play differently while maintaining progression.

    2. Use favor milestones to share the past life:
    --- 2000 favor: pick ONE alt to also get this past life. Costs an extra heart. 2000 favor is pretty easy.
    --- 4000 favor: pick TWO alts to also get his past life. Costs two extra hearts. 4k will require some more planning.
    --- 6000 favor: pick THREE alts to also get his past life. Costs three extra hearts. 6k will be work, but will result in running almost every quest during that life, but reward the extra playtime. By the time someone goes and gets 6k favor they likely could have done 2 or 3 more lives the fast way anyhow.

    3. Use favor milestones to multiply the past life (instead of sharing it with an alt):
    --- 4000 favor, gain past life x2. Cost an extra heart.
    --- 6000 favor, gain past life x3. Costs two extra hearts.
    * Cannot be done at the same time as sharing the past life with alts.)

    4. Allow heroic and racial past lives to be earned at the same time. Need to buy / grind both hearts. Add option to put in both to get both.

    Reaper-- Allow 10% of Reaper xp earned to go to:
    Free to play/premium: ONE selected alt
    VIP: TWO or THREE selected alts.
    *able to change which alts this goes to by talking to some NPC on a guild ship or the Market etc.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  17. #77
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    I think they should let people pay twice the tokens (40, or maybe 60 if they aren't feeling generous) to buy a heart that gives both a racial and heroic past life. Heroic past lives offer very little these days apart from very specific builds i.e. spell pen, so there is little harm in letting people hit both at once.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Here are some ways to encourage playing at cap and playing a wider range of quests, while reducing the "grindy" nature.

    Some mods to the Reincarnation system:

    1. Epic reincarnation:
    --- Make the LR optional. Before hitting the reincarnate button there needs to be a checkbox to return to level 20 WITHOUT doing the LR. All your choices are saved. This is simply a time saver for the process. It does not actually speed up the rate of acquiring lives.
    --- Make an option to get the epic past life, but stay at level 30. Not sure what the added cost would be. Maybe putting the sphere to -2mil xp, thus making it cost 8 mil. Maybe allowing you to put more xp in the spheres, then ER back to 20 is 6 mil and ER+stay at 30 is 8 or 10 mil. Depending on how you look at this one, you may or may not feel this speeds up the process, but, either way it does provide a new option to play differently while maintaining progression.

    2. Use favor milestones to share the past life:
    --- 2000 favor: pick ONE alt to also get this past life. Costs an extra heart. 2000 favor is pretty easy.
    --- 4000 favor: pick TWO alts to also get his past life. Costs two extra hearts. 4k will require some more planning.
    --- 6000 favor: pick THREE alts to also get his past life. Costs three extra hearts. 6k will be work, but will result in running almost every quest during that life, but reward the extra playtime. By the time someone goes and gets 6k favor they likely could have done 2 or 3 more lives the fast way anyhow.

    3. Use favor milestones to multiply the past life (instead of sharing it with an alt):
    --- 4000 favor, gain past life x2. Cost an extra heart.
    --- 6000 favor, gain past life x3. Costs two extra hearts.
    * Cannot be done at the same time as sharing the past life with alts.)

    4. Allow heroic and racial past lives to be earned at the same time. Need to buy / grind both hearts. Add option to put in both to get both.

    Reaper-- Allow 10% of Reaper xp earned to go to:
    Free to play/premium: ONE selected alt
    VIP: TWO or THREE selected alts.
    *able to change which alts this goes to by talking to some NPC on a guild ship or the Market etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by korgzz_bloodaxe View Post
    I think they should let people pay twice the tokens (40, or maybe 60 if they aren't feeling generous) to buy a heart that gives both a racial and heroic past life. Heroic past lives offer very little these days apart from very specific builds i.e. spell pen, so there is little harm in letting people hit both at once.
    These are all good suggestions that should probably be implemented if the goal is minimize the time it takes to acquire past lives (though I am not sure that is SSG's goal).

  19. #79
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    While I disagree with some of your premises and lead-in statements, the idea of reducing the xp needed for the first "x" amount of lives does not bother me.

    There are a lot of variations to do this, with your idea of using the second TR xp scale for all heroic lives is fine, I wouldn't mind lessening it further. In addition, since it's the epic TR's that are generally better to have from a power standpoint, I'd be fine with adjustments there as well. Lots of different ways to do this, and the simpler the better IMO (for the devs sake if nothing else).

    Perhaps something like this:

    1. Keep the heroic and epic xp scale the same as a first lifer forever. No added increase based on PL's.
    2. If only doing a heroic TR (and not an epic) allow the combination of heroic class PL and racial PL at the same time, as long as you have both required hearts.
    3. Reverse-load the racial PL bonuses, granting AP first, then stat, then skill point.
    4. Instead of epic TR's granting 3+3+3 (for each EPL) front load it to 4+3+2.
    5. Once a player has unlocked (or purchased) vet and vet2 status, allow TR's to begin at L4 or L7 respectively.
    6. Create a permanent Vet3 status, through the store (account wide) and favor unlock (server wide) to also allow TR to begin at L11.
    7. Create a new store item/feature, call it epic-fast track or something, that similar to iconics, allows you to TR into (or start new) a character that begins at L15. This would be a non-iconic character with starter gear that is BTC and non-tradable that cannot TR or RTR at L20, but must go to L30 and then, if desired, ETR back to 20, or ETR+HTR (class only) just like a regular character that went to 30. Of course, like any other toon, you could choose to ETR, then HTR back into another L15 non-iconic.

    Anyway, I believe these ideas would greatly reduce the grind (or as I call it, play time) required to obtain past lives for BOTH the altoholic and the new player, with the added benefit of the reversed-racial bonuses and front-loaded epic PL bonuses.
    In the past I proposed some mechanisms like these to shorten the grind, and some different. and that could certainly help reduce the gap. Many other proposals, yours or from other people, could help. But I keep saying that this only works if SSG slows down the rate of introduction of new grinds in the game. In recent years SSG has accelerated the introduction of grinds at an insane pace as if the company did not expect there to be a tomorrow. Racial and Reaper are huge grinds, very backloaded in addition, and were introduced very next in time. After 6 more lives with the aasimar and its iconic. This year we are going for 18 (tiefling, iconic, 12 EPLs) and there will be 6 more with the arrival of the alchemist. And that's not to mention the other great grind of the game, the gear. That may seem minor until you have several toons to equip. I have built 3 and a half sentient weapons, for example. And this means that I still have alts that I have not had the opportunity to level up their sentient gem, and we already have more grind with the artifacts.

    What you have to understand is that when new grinds are added, people who are delayed are delayed even more because if they have not had time to finish the previous ones, even less will be able to catch up with the new ones. And the sum of small bonuses that do not receive (a few PL lives, a few lack of equipment, a few lack of reaper, etc) in the end add up huge differences

    Mechanics of shortening of grinds will be insufficient if they do not stop this rate of introduction of new grinds. But this is a step that SSG has to take and that SSG does not seem willing to take on. And if this step is not taken, they will have to resort to drastic measures to help those who are behind. Yes, drastic measures that some people like so little as account-based mechanisms and PL packages for new players. Would this be ideal? No, the ideal is for SSG to stop enlarging the problem and fix the damage already caused. But SSG does not seem willing to do it.

    SSG has to do something already if it does not want the problem to continue to grow and become serious. Currently the new players already have a great barrier ahead and many people are leaving to play their alts. SSG has to stop already introducing new grinds and start working on this problem. Once there are mechanisms to cut the grins and the gap has been reduced, new grinds could be introduced, but always at a slow pace that does not surpass the aid mechanisms, and not at the frenetic pace they are now having.

    And that is the real problem. If SSG continues in this direction (high rate of introduction of grinds, no aid to those left behind) will come soon a time when the only possible cure is surgery. And if SSG is neglected, we may encounter us with an incurable disease.

    The first thing we have to ask SSG is to stop the introduction of new grinds until they have solved the problem. And after solving it, SSG should monitor the rate of creation of new grinds, because otherwise the problem will be repeated.

    More is not always better, SSG. The middle term is usually adequate for almost everything. Excesses are rarely more beneficial than defects.
    Last edited by Iriale; 06-14-2019 at 04:55 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  20. #80
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    and Reaper are huge grinds, very backloaded in addition,
    Actually, based on a couple of other posts (which I cannot find now) I would be okay with sharing of reaper points in some way as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    SSG has to stop already introducing new grinds
    Before that can happen, you need to suggest alternatives to keep people playing that already "have everything". We already have that problem now where many vets leave the game for several months or a year, then come back when a new expansion is introduced, play for 3 months until they have "'everything" again, and *poof* they disappear for another year.

    To keep the game alive you need to give players something to strive for.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

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