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Thread: Closing the gap

  1. #41
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    1. Epic TR get rid of the going back to 20 as being required. Let people cash their x million xp and play at cap. This would go a long way for people actually learning how to play a particular character instead of the mad TR rush you see with half geared and half understood abilities. Would address some of the - I don't raid because I don't want to waste xp or the gear doesn't interest me because I would ER etc.

    2. I am good with reducing the xp to first life rates. My main only ever TR's when forced by new races or classes. I hate it with a passion but am fine with those who like that.

    3. Make some of the grind account based. Whether its reaper xp which seems to be the big one or TRs etc but enough of the grind. Account based will mean possibility of more alts and maybe people will not be always TRing and actually learn to play a type of character.

    Its not all about pastlives or reaper points though the latter certainly help in terms of HP. I happily play a ton of characters, one of my favourites is a rogue, I happily run it with its massive 1 racial pastlife in any level reaper or raid. Sometimes I feel a bit light on hp in high reaper but if I am dumb I just expect to die. Anything that might encourage people to play a single class for a while at cap is a good thing.
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    The Myth- TR will make my character powerful
    The Reality- Those kobolds in Water Works won’t have a chance but nothing else cares-Learn to play your build and all its abilities in actual difficult content, get gear and reaper points in level 30+ content and raids.

  2. #42
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Certainly, there is a gap between new players and veteran players that should be addressed also in my opinion.
    But the question is how?
    If you suddenly make the leveling from 1-20 and 1-30 much faster this would be not a good solution in my opinion.
    Because in DDO it is already easy enough and fast enough to level from 1-30.
    This also leads to the misconception of many veterans to think there is no problem...

    The problem is that DDO needs to provide something to do for veterans and at the same time it should be never too much to do for new players so that they dont see any hope to ever keep up with veterans and play with them on par any time soon.
    Of course, an exceptional new player who plays suddenly 24/7 DDO and maybe even spend thousands and thousands of $ for Otto's Boxes and exp potions has a chance to do that.
    And maybe SSG dreams a wet dream of hundreds of thousands of players who are going to do that in the future but I dont think that is realistic and not even fair to expect that from any new player.
    And veteran players have to ask themselves the question what would they expect if they would have to start DDO all new tomorrow?
    Would they look forward to starting DDO from the scratch without any hope to ever keep up with there friends who still have their veteran accounts?

    The solution to the problem has to include that it is NOT easier for veterans and that veterans have always something to do BUT at the same time it should give new players a headstart so they have hope they can keep up with a veteran player who plays DDO every day.
    And to make this true, one solution is, in my opinion, to give a new player an average account for a reasonable price.
    I already talked about account based (long term) progression a lot...
    If we have this you could have in addition an option for new players (and even veteran players) who play not that often to buy a something I call a DDO-keep-up-bundle, with this all DDO content that is older than 2 years (just a suggestion at this point) is included.
    And such a DDO-keep-up-bundle includes also a certain amount of past lives and maybe reaper experience points for your account.
    Maybe you get each past life one time with that, how many and which past life you get is, of course, the question.
    But there should be always an incisive to play for furthermore past lives and this process doesn't need any acceleration in my opinion because it would be harmful to veteran players who are too fast done with everything if that happens.
    Therefore my idea would be to give new players a headstart for a reasonable price that is competitive in the MMO market.
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  3. #43

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    I think the major issue we have is how to make sure new players have fun in the game alongside all the vets.

    A problem we see now is LFM's mostly being posted for reaper difficulty on heroic and often epic elite or higher on epic. New players joining such groups get one shotted all the time. So no fun playing for them. Sometimes the new players get declined when trying to join these groups. Especially on new content which is harder.

    Why are people running on the higher difficulties? The most important is that you get a lot more XP on reaper or elite difficulties. First time bonus is much higher and also bravery bonus and streak. Another important reason is better drop chance for named loot and more favor. Reaper is selected to get reaper xp which will make quests much easier to run when you get a decent amount of points.

    Another problem we have is free to play vs pay to play quests. One thing is having expansions you need to purchase to play, but it's not fun for a new player getting a red chalice on an old quest his group wanted to play. It's very hard for a new player to know which quest packs are worth getting with his precious DDO points. I would suggest SSG make a lot of the old quest packs free to play now or at least lower the price so much you can unlock a lot of them just by earning DDO points via favor. Even popular ones like Vault of Night and Gianthold.

    One way SSG could make life easier for new players would be to increase the named loot drop chance for normal and hard difficulties. They should also go through most named loot and adjust the power to what is now the norm for new loot. Then new players can get usable loot from other quests than the new ones like Ravenloft and Sharn. Now players feel forced to join elite or reaper runs to have a decent chance getting the loot they need to feel useful.

    The XP bonuses from each difficulty should be evened out much more too. Get rid of bravery bonus and streak bonuses. You can lower the general XP needed to cap at heroic or epic if you get less XP per quest. With no contraints like bravery and streak bonuses then you will see vet players running on normal and hard for loot farming and even past life XP ing. If you can get almost the same xp on normal as reaper then past life farmers can do it on normal and get XP a lot faster. Which will lower the time needed per life.

    One issue that won't easily be solved is reaper. Even if we lower the XP granted from reaper closer to normal veteran players will still select reaper to get reaper XP. Reaper XP is a bit like catch 22. You need reaper points to be able to survive in reaper quests, but in order to get reaper points you need to run the reaper quests. So the way to do it is to join up with experienced people and hope they will allow you to be just following around.

    SSG are now introducing methods where players can play a race or epic destiny and get the reward for another. Maybe there should be some mechanisms where players can earn some reaper points without having to run quests at reaper difficulty. E, g. killing red named monsters or champions should award a direct small reaper XP. Not much, but these will add up. The reaper xp needed for the first reaper points aren't so big. So if you build up your toon running normal, then hard and then elite you gain some reaper XP so you get some reaper points until when you finally want to try a reaper quest. You won't benefit from the points when running normal, hard or elite, but you won't start at 0 reaper points when you enter reaper. An alternative could be to have reaper XP jewels similar to daily dice roll xp jewels drop as end rewards in quests even on non reaper runs or even daily dice rolls.
    Last edited by Peter_Stauffenberg; 06-12-2019 at 06:43 AM.

  4. #44
    Community Member DaviMOC's Avatar
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    More about exposure than RXP/power gap.

    IMO there is 4 things that really makes a power gap beteween new character/player and a vet and they're not PL/RXP neither big as people claims .And they are: 36 pts builds, Unleveled EDs, stat tomes and past lives gear.
    Its really hard/annoying to level EDs on a new character and it puts that character miles behind other ones. There are 12 EDs and mostly a new character wont be running its main ED or in a Maxed ED for weeks, maybe months and lives.

    Every-time I get a well built toon it keeps up and peforms well until it hits 20 where comes the 20's(btc epic gear) and ED to pull it down.

    There is little to say about tomes. It's raw and universal power delivered to your toon. If you're a vet you probably bought one at store or farmed favor/raids to get at least up to +5. Thats an issue for alts and new players to keep up.

    Certainly Rxp and PLs helps and it's power, a crude new character would never compete with a winged completionist , however none of this locks out any new player,. The lack of experience when playing and building your character does exposes a gap related to playing experience and the lack of gear that is usually misunderstood as missing rxp and pls.

    The main problem that is also solution in DDO is the early exposure . As a new player/character you may end up grouping with very experienced players running their latest tiefling PLs. This people already know the game so well, got ready gear for each level and does everything so fast that a new player can hardly learn from and/or keep up on anything and start to feel lagging behind blaming those wings and PLs. This is also a solution as most MMOs dont leave the opportunity for vet/main toons to run same content as new players do, making room for anyone to play with anybody.


    Ps.: Addressing the power difference wont help when people dont have the opportunity to learn how to play. I just bought Ravenloft after I had most of my gear from sharn. At first sight I found everything hard and dangerous, quests felt like long puzzles. After a couple of runs in groups with 0 power growth i felt confident enough to solo most quests with same skull or higher that other quests I'm used to . We need to stop blaming the power gap when the real issue is knowledge gap. Also, DDO is not a easy game to learn, its complex and new players will take time to learn it and are susceptible to wrongly blame power.
    Last edited by DaviMOC; 06-12-2019 at 07:29 AM.

  5. #45
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    Any way that's my idea. A relatively minor grind reduction with the hope that it aids in new player retention.
    While I disagree with some of your premises and lead-in statements, the idea of reducing the xp needed for the first "x" amount of lives does not bother me.

    There are a lot of variations to do this, with your idea of using the second TR xp scale for all heroic lives is fine, I wouldn't mind lessening it further. In addition, since it's the epic TR's that are generally better to have from a power standpoint, I'd be fine with adjustments there as well. Lots of different ways to do this, and the simpler the better IMO (for the devs sake if nothing else).

    Perhaps something like this:

    1. Keep the heroic and epic xp scale the same as a first lifer forever. No added increase based on PL's.
    2. If only doing a heroic TR (and not an epic) allow the combination of heroic class PL and racial PL at the same time, as long as you have both required hearts.
    3. Reverse-load the racial PL bonuses, granting AP first, then stat, then skill point.
    4. Instead of epic TR's granting 3+3+3 (for each EPL) front load it to 4+3+2.
    5. Once a player has unlocked (or purchased) vet and vet2 status, allow TR's to begin at L4 or L7 respectively.
    6. Create a permanent Vet3 status, through the store (account wide) and favor unlock (server wide) to also allow TR to begin at L11.
    7. Create a new store item/feature, call it epic-fast track or something, that similar to iconics, allows you to TR into (or start new) a character that begins at L15. This would be a non-iconic character with starter gear that is BTC and non-tradable that cannot TR or RTR at L20, but must go to L30 and then, if desired, ETR back to 20, or ETR+HTR (class only) just like a regular character that went to 30. Of course, like any other toon, you could choose to ETR, then HTR back into another L15 non-iconic.

    Anyway, I believe these ideas would greatly reduce the grind (or as I call it, play time) required to obtain past lives for BOTH the altoholic and the new player, with the added benefit of the reversed-racial bonuses and front-loaded epic PL bonuses.
    Last edited by Fedora1; 06-12-2019 at 07:54 AM.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
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  6. #46
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    Therefore my idea would be to give new players a headstart for a reasonable price that is competitive in the MMO market.
    If an Otto box costs, what is it, about $45 or so? And all it does is give you 1 heroic PL or half an epic past life, and purchasing one-by-one the pay-to-play quests, and purchasing the expansion packs, on sale, would already add up to a few hundred dollars (estimating), just how much (or little) do you think SSG is going to charge for this? I am not making fun of your idea, just trying to be realistic.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  7. #47
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    I think one of our main concerns should simply be the lack of population in the servers. There are groups of people who support lowbies/newbies in each server, but the problem is that they're spread too thin across all of the 30 levels of content there are.

    Whether or not there are people in a server that don't support noobs shouldn't be a top priority, but I do agree it should be on the radar. There will always be non-supportive types that care only for their own needs.

    Bottom-line, we need to fix the population vs content issue so that noobs don't have to a) wait a long time to play content b) search high and low to get an answer to a simple question or c) get stuck running only 1-2 quests at a given level because the rest of them aren't run on a regular basis.

  8. #48
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    • Very casual player only playing on average 2 hours a day. 3700/2 = 1850/356 = 5.2 years
    • Casual player only playing on average 4 hours a day 3700/4 = 925/356 = 2.6 years
    • Gainfully employed with other priorities but no commitments in life player playing 6 hours a day on average 3700/6 = 617/356 = 1.8 years
    • I'm a Student with out an SO player playing 8 hours a day on average 3700/8 = 463/356 = 1.3 years
    • Some one should maybe be worried about you player playing 10 hours a day on average 3700/10 = 370/356 = 1.04 years
    • This is no good for you but I don't care about you so meh player playing 12 hours a day on average 3700/12 = 309/356 = 0.87 years
    Casual plays 4 hours a day? Wow, I want your schedule lol. I'd put myself into the gainfully employed with other priorities in life but I'm a lot closer to the 2 hours/day lol. And uh I do plenty of gearfarming, raiding, sitting at cap for whatever reason, trying out other stuff, and exploring lol, so even with that time I'm not near finishing in 5 years (been here since 2014 or so).

    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    I’m quite proud to say that I can now quite suddenly and pretty reliably solo (again with a few hires) LE quests, and fast enough that it is worthwhile to run them. Again, Sharn came at the perfect time for me, just as I got my RL gear set (mostly) done, and was a blessing for the spike in LFMs at my late playtime (9 PM+ pacific). Most importantly, I’ve gained a lot of confidence in joining LFMs and no longer being a hindrance to the party. I actually feel like a valuable member of the group in LE pugs. Sharn gave me the chance to learn the new quests along with vets, and I even found myself sometimes leading the way, which I never experienced before. I’ve joined a number of low Reaper pugs and somewhat held my own (and apparently picked up a some rxp in the process). I'm pretty sure that I'm finally ready to raid too.

    The jump from ‘soloing’ LH to LE is huge, in my admittedly inexperienced opinion. I made this jump only with gear upgrades. I’m not saying that my experience as a new player is at all typical, I just wanted to give a perspective on what is possible on a first-life toon from a new player.
    Gratz! I'm enjoying watching your "career" from brand new to where you are now!

    This is why I say that Ravenloft (and to a lesser degree Sharn) is so good for DDO; with just Ravenloft gear (3-piece & 5-piece set is my basic) a brand new player has gear that's 80% as good as an endgame vet. Going from a +8/3 randomgen stat item to +19/9/4 is hilariously good, and even if you're competing with a vet who has +21/10/4 via Sharn you're now 91% of their stat instead of 31%.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13
    I have yet to meet a new player who saw the grind and quit.
    What we do know is that even when there were only heroic past lives, some players felt that there was some very large advantage to past lives. We know that some of them were very upset about it - with the evidence being what they have posted on the forums, even when it only consisted of heroic past lives.

    My take was always that heroic past lives added about 1% power per past life, with some obviously doing more than the average and some less, and depending on your build. This was generally/roughly agreed upon at the time. Then epic past lives were added which were, on average, more powerful than heroic past lives. Probably in the 1-2% power per past life range. Then reaper bonuses were added, which I think we can agree are bigger than epic past life power. Then racial bonuses and AP were added, which stacked additional combinations of character power. Stack in the latest pay to win gear, and you have a power gap of around 300%.
    I don't disagree that stuff adds power, I'm saying I don't think that gap is a major issue causing players to leave (there are other reasons for that). Most new players I've met (if not all) are pretty chill with getting stronger over time and not starting out endgame viable.

    I disagree about gear though, thanks to Ravenloft in particular it's pretty reasonable to get extremely good gear as a new player. If that's what you mean by P2W sure, but only as far as buying the expansion goes, and it's a couple years old now so it should be getting on the sales list more often. Sharn as well will help, but currently it's P2W and IMO not very new-player friendly. IMO P2W is many games where you can buy better-than-normally-available gear directly, and DDO avoids that pretty well (shard rerolls are debatable).

    I'd argue HPL's are a lot more front-loaded than that. Paladin x3 is a solid buff to 95% of builds, Cleric x3 basically isn't. Wizard/FvS x3 is like a 40% buff to DC casters, or a 1% buff to non-DC casters. Whereas like RPL's are super backloaded, one of each = literally no buff, whereas 30 of them = 10 Racial points = a ton of power on many builds. Which is why I argued for swapping the order, getting the RAP front-loaded and having the skills be like a prestige bonus.

    Rather than dismiss every attempt to talk about the gap and what it does to the new player experience, a starting place would be to admit the fact that there is a gap, and that the game is largely being designed around those with all those past lives and/or who can easily (meaning efficiently) run through the latest grind system (reaper).
    I'm not disagreeing that a gap exists (and I doubt anyone here is), I'm disagreeing with the cause and size of the gap; like I don't think an endgame vet is that far ahead of a new player just because of their PL's.

    I'm also not convinced about the proposed solution. Like "the first time you get to 30 you get 20 free Otto's Boxes" would certainly reduce the PL gap, but I don't think anyone here thinks it's a good solution; let alone one that might be implemented. I'd rather an implementation that more heavily front-loads PL's, or makes early ones more available; but I don't think it should be to the first 30+ of them (speaking as someone who would directly benefit from that).
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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  9. #49
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Casual plays 4 hours a day? Wow, I want your schedule lol. I'd put myself into the gainfully employed with other priorities in life but I'm a lot closer to the 2 hours/day lol. And uh I do plenty of gearfarming, raiding, sitting at cap for whatever reason, trying out other stuff, and exploring lol, so even with that time I'm not near finishing in 5 years (been here since 2014 or so).



    Gratz! I'm enjoying watching your "career" from brand new to where you are now!

    This is why I say that Ravenloft (and to a lesser degree Sharn) is so good for DDO; with just Ravenloft gear (3-piece & 5-piece set is my basic) a brand new player has gear that's 80% as good as an endgame vet. Going from a +8/3 randomgen stat item to +19/9/4 is hilariously good, and even if you're competing with a vet who has +21/10/4 via Sharn you're now 91% of their stat instead of 31%.



    I don't disagree that stuff adds power, I'm saying I don't think that gap is a major issue causing players to leave (there are other reasons for that). Most new players I've met (if not all) are pretty chill with getting stronger over time and not starting out endgame viable.

    I disagree about gear though, thanks to Ravenloft in particular it's pretty reasonable to get extremely good gear as a new player. If that's what you mean by P2W sure, but only as far as buying the expansion goes, and it's a couple years old now so it should be getting on the sales list more often. Sharn as well will help, but currently it's P2W and IMO not very new-player friendly. IMO P2W is many games where you can buy better-than-normally-available gear directly, and DDO avoids that pretty well (shard rerolls are debatable).

    I'd argue HPL's are a lot more front-loaded than that. Paladin x3 is a solid buff to 95% of builds, Cleric x3 basically isn't. Wizard/FvS x3 is like a 40% buff to DC casters, or a 1% buff to non-DC casters. Whereas like RPL's are super backloaded, one of each = literally no buff, whereas 30 of them = 10 Racial points = a ton of power on many builds. Which is why I argued for swapping the order, getting the RAP front-loaded and having the skills be like a prestige bonus.



    I'm not disagreeing that a gap exists (and I doubt anyone here is), I'm disagreeing with the cause and size of the gap; like I don't think an endgame vet is that far ahead of a new player just because of their PL's.

    I'm also not convinced about the proposed solution. Like "the first time you get to 30 you get 20 free Otto's Boxes" would certainly reduce the PL gap, but I don't think anyone here thinks it's a good solution; let alone one that might be implemented. I'd rather an implementation that more heavily front-loads PL's, or makes early ones more available; but I don't think it should be to the first 30+ of them (speaking as someone who would directly benefit from that).
    How much percentage additional power do you think someone with all past lives has? You disagree with the gap, so let's hear your number.

    I suppose we should also talk about how long it would take to fill that gap, which I will be glad to engage in after you answer the above question. My first life took me at least 6 months, and I achieved completionist. I'm curious how long it took you for your first life?


    Disagreeing with a proposed solution is far different than trying to say there isn't a problem, or offering no solutions of your own. Circulate a better idea if you have one (be specific), or at least consider being supportive of those trying to offer solutions.

    If you extrapolate your own experience onto others, this unfortunately tends to produce really inaccurate views of others. "The people you meet" are new players that are willing to tag along with vets. The ones you meet are the ones still playing. Using the people you meet to say nobody leaves because of grind would be pretty inappropriate. You will have to go beyond your own experience, and listen to the fact that people complain repeatedly about the grind on the forums, and that it is something they are upset about. Are you able to listen to others? Have you heard new players complain about the power gap on the forums? Do you think people leave the game because of the things they complain about?

    Players leave the game when their play experience is not fun. The power gap from grind to earn $$$ design is certainly a part of that. People don't hang around for months when the play experience is not enjoyable, and "keep grinding, the game will eventually be fun" is not a sound design for getting new players.
    Last edited by nokowi; 06-12-2019 at 11:28 AM.
    - inactive player -

  10. #50
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    I mean... As a multi lifer, I can go from 1-20 in 3 days if I really wanted to, I usually do it in a week just cause I dont want to kill myself. Further more, you can't really say 3k xp a minute for 1-30, because in epics it is very easy to attain 10 to even 20k xp a minute so long as you know what you are doing.

    Further more, if we were to use your math, that is only 154 days to hit the max past lives. Not even a full year. There are games with rewards that are much harder to attain taking a year or longer to get. Yet people stay with it. The only game I can think of off the top of my head would be Warframe. There is a melee weapon in that game that is the best melee weapon for high level play, but in order to get it you have to log in for 300 days in total. Making is a much harder item to get than uber completionist in this game. Yet Warframe has over 100 thousand people playing on PC alone.
    A few years ago I added up the total PLs and came to 131. This was before more were added. Even someone farming as hard as you do getting a PL every 3 days and never taking a break would take longer than a year. Most players are not going at a quarter of that speed.

    But my real point here is: Lets not confuse difficulty with time consumption.

    In most other MMO players spend the vast majority of their time at max character power for that era. While the rewards can be much more DIFFICULT to obtain they typically do not take more TIME to obtain. The outliers are the exceptions here, and not the rule. Most people are fine with those in other games because this typically means single digit numbers of people having the item, and the entire game does not need to be balanced around the item.

    Its also not just the grind itself but the nature of the grind: Hamster wheel style.

    In DDO to get alot of PLs you are spending the vast majority of the character's time at something far less than max character power, and farming the same hamster wheel over and over again. Each time character power increases in another MMO it is added with new content to play through at the high end. In D&D our characters would be fighting the gods and traversing the planes at max level as each expansion gets added. In DDO we are back running waterworks for the 55th time...and kobold STILL hate you!!!

    The issue with the reincarnation system is not only the length of time it takes to farm the desired power, but the fact that the grind is repetitive at the low end, having you run 12 year old quests you've run 800 times before. While many of us are fully capable of running TRs once every 3 days, most of us arent quite masochistic enough to hear Larz Heyton tell us once again for the 900th time, that we beat them off, this time.

    Edit:

    Also in pretty much any game where the character power progression is at end game, when they add an expansion, the new trash loot that drops is comparable to BiS loot from 2 expansions ago, so even the casual players can raid the previous expansion while the hard core players raid the current expansion. In DDO new players start at scratch. There is no catch up mechanism. The more power added, the less desirable it becomes for friends of existing players to join.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-12-2019 at 02:15 PM.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  11. #51
    Community Member Stingae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Casual plays 4 hours a day? Wow, I want your schedule lol.
    My thought too! There are many occasions I don't mange 2 hours a week! I'd have to up my game time 7 fold just to be very casual apparently. I need to quit sleeping altogether or get a divorce to hit the dizzy hights of casual.


    Easy change and probably less controversial... why not delay the xp cost increases by a few lives. A lot of benefit comes with those first two build point bonuses. If a new player can get to 36 point builds before xp for 1-20 goes up to second life rates and maybe another 3 lives before it goes to current third life cost, that is less daunting. 5 lives under your belt is a nice starting point for things to slow down and does nothing for vets (except may be for their alts who might be tempted with a few cheap lives but I see that as a bonus win) and doesn't significantly under value their historic time input.
    Took me several years to get around to registering for the forum... Don't believe the join date. I am not a new noob. I am an old noob and long time lurker.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stingae View Post
    My thought too! There are many occasions I don't mange 2 hours a week! I'd have to up my game time 7 fold just to be very casual apparently. I need to quit sleeping altogether or get a divorce to hit the dizzy hights of casual.


    Easy change and probably less controversial... why not delay the xp cost increases by a few lives. A lot of benefit comes with those first two build point bonuses. If a new player can get to 36 point builds before xp for 1-20 goes up to second life rates and maybe another 3 lives before it goes to current third life cost, that is less daunting. 5 lives under your belt is a nice starting point for things to slow down and does nothing for vets (except may be for their alts who might be tempted with a few cheap lives but I see that as a bonus win) and doesn't significantly under value their historic time input.
    I enthusiastically support this idea.

    And yeah, wow...28 hours a week (4 hours per night) is casual? I must be doing life wrong ;-)

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_Stauffenberg View Post
    I think the major issue we have is how to make sure new players have fun in the game alongside all the vets.

    A problem we see now is LFM's mostly being posted for reaper difficulty on heroic and often epic elite or higher on epic. New players joining such groups get one shotted all the time. So no fun playing for them. Sometimes the new players get declined when trying to join these groups. Especially on new content which is harder.

    Why are people running on the higher difficulties? The most important is that you get a lot more XP on reaper or elite difficulties. First time bonus is much higher and also bravery bonus and streak. Another important reason is better drop chance for named loot and more favor. Reaper is selected to get reaper xp which will make quests much easier to run when you get a decent amount of points.

    Another problem we have is free to play vs pay to play quests. One thing is having expansions you need to purchase to play, but it's not fun for a new player getting a red chalice on an old quest his group wanted to play. It's very hard for a new player to know which quest packs are worth getting with his precious DDO points. I would suggest SSG make a lot of the old quest packs free to play now or at least lower the price so much you can unlock a lot of them just by earning DDO points via favor. Even popular ones like Vault of Night and Gianthold.

    One way SSG could make life easier for new players would be to increase the named loot drop chance for normal and hard difficulties. They should also go through most named loot and adjust the power to what is now the norm for new loot. Then new players can get usable loot from other quests than the new ones like Ravenloft and Sharn. Now players feel forced to join elite or reaper runs to have a decent chance getting the loot they need to feel useful.

    The XP bonuses from each difficulty should be evened out much more too. Get rid of bravery bonus and streak bonuses. You can lower the general XP needed to cap at heroic or epic if you get less XP per quest. With no contraints like bravery and streak bonuses then you will see vet players running on normal and hard for loot farming and even past life XP ing. If you can get almost the same xp on normal as reaper then past life farmers can do it on normal and get XP a lot faster. Which will lower the time needed per life.

    One issue that won't easily be solved is reaper. Even if we lower the XP granted from reaper closer to normal veteran players will still select reaper to get reaper XP. Reaper XP is a bit like catch 22. You need reaper points to be able to survive in reaper quests, but in order to get reaper points you need to run the reaper quests. So the way to do it is to join up with experienced people and hope they will allow you to be just following around.

    SSG are now introducing methods where players can play a race or epic destiny and get the reward for another. Maybe there should be some mechanisms where players can earn some reaper points without having to run quests at reaper difficulty. E, g. killing red named monsters or champions should award a direct small reaper XP. Not much, but these will add up. The reaper xp needed for the first reaper points aren't so big. So if you build up your toon running normal, then hard and then elite you gain some reaper XP so you get some reaper points until when you finally want to try a reaper quest. You won't benefit from the points when running normal, hard or elite, but you won't start at 0 reaper points when you enter reaper. An alternative could be to have reaper XP jewels similar to daily dice roll xp jewels drop as end rewards in quests even on non reaper runs or even daily dice rolls.
    It is an interesting idea, but the thing that has always made me feel that elite was mandatory to play, even before we had reaper and back when I was too weak to be able to handle elite, is that elite is needed to grant maximum favor. As long as you don't get max favor from normal and hard I will never consider those to be serious options, even for new players. New players need favor for DDO points just as much as the rest of us.

    And, as you brought up, now that reaper exists even making normal grant the same experience and same favor as elite wouldn't be of much help because reaper is the only difficulty that grants long-term character progress. When you play through a life there are only 3 things that matter: what past lives you earn, how many DDO points you accrue (which is why you have to play on elite or higher), and how much reaper experience you accrue (which is why playing on reaper is important, even if you just play reaper 1 the entire time.

    If you don't play reaper you lose out on a major area of character progression and, since the entire point of running the TR train is character progression, that isn't a real option. Unless normal grants as much reaper experience as reaper 1 (which I can't imagine it ever would), that won't work either, and even if it did grant the same reaper experience, you wouldn't be able to benefit from the reaper points you already earned as long as you are just playing on normal.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    A few years ago I added up the total PLs and came to 131. This was before more were added. Even someone farming as hard as you do getting a PL every 3 days and never taking a break would take longer than a year. Most players are not going at a quarter of that speed.

    But my real point here is: Lets not confuse difficulty with time consumption.

    In most other MMO players spend the vast majority of their time at max character power for that era. While the rewards can be much more DIFFICULT to obtain they typically do not take more TIME to obtain. The outliers are the exceptions here, and not the rule. Most people are fine with those in other games because this typically means single digit numbers of people having the item, and the entire game does not need to be balanced around the item.

    Its also not just the grind itself but the nature of the grind: Hamster wheel style.

    In DDO to get alot of PLs you are spending the vast majority of the character's time at something far less than max character power, and farming the same hamster wheel over and over again. Each time character power increases in another MMO it is added with new content to play through at the high end. In D&D our characters would be fighting the gods and traversing the planes at max level as each expansion gets added. In DDO we are back running waterworks for the 55th time...and kobold STILL hate you!!!

    The issue with the reincarnation system is not only the length of time it takes to farm the desired power, but the fact that the grind is repetitive at the low end, having you run 12 year old quests you've run 800 times before. While many of us are fully capable of running TRs once every 3 days, most of us arent quite masochistic enough to hear Larz Heyton tell us once again for the 900th time, that we beat them off, this time.

    Edit:

    Also in pretty much any game where the character power progression is at end game, when they add an expansion, the new trash loot that drops is comparable to BiS loot from 2 expansions ago, so even the casual players can raid the previous expansion while the hard core players raid the current expansion. In DDO new players start at scratch. There is no catch up mechanism. The more power added, the less desirable it becomes for friends of existing players to join.
    I genuinely enjoy the 'hamster wheel' as running the waterworks one additional time each life is far better than running the same raid for the 100th time this year. The game is actually less repetitive, not more repetitive, because of the TR design.

    The greater problem comes from gear. Having to keep several sets of gear for every class is a nightmare. Maintaining high minimum past levels on gear for years are the gear is obsolete is not useful. And when they finally do 'update' old gear they still keep the obnoxious minimum level they had in the past (even though the updated gear still probably isn't useful enough to wear at that level).

    It should be far easier to put on a set of gear as a level 1 character and ride it to level 30. At the very least we should be able to get dressed at level 1 and ride it to 20 with only a single clothing changed required at level 20 to get to level 30. The most balanced way to do this would be for gear to change its stats as you level (e.g. giving +1 or +2 strength at level 1 and giving an additional point of strength for every 1 or 2 levels you gain all the way up to cap). But if designing gear like that is too much work at least remove the minimum level on old gear so it's easier to find a single set of gear we can play through the game with.

    Most power should come from the class trees and epic destinies anyway and, if it did, it wouldn't be so unbalancing for a level 1 character to be wearing epic Sharn gear. Gear should be a nice little bonus on top of your class power, not the source of 90% of your power (as it is now). This is the game where +1 weapons were considered powerful magic because most power came from the character and gear was just a bonus. Making gear too important only compounds the problem for new players as many of them have no idea what they are expected to farm to be able to play well (and they shouldn't have to farm gear to be effective to begin with).

  15. #55
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I genuinely enjoy the 'hamster wheel' as running the waterworks one additional time each life is far better than running the same raid for the 100th time this year. The game is actually less repetitive, not more repetitive, because of the TR design.
    Over the long run DDO is more repetitive than other games. Where in other games you might run the same 8-10 raids for 9-10 months (as well as running dailies for progression, PVP for progression etc), but then switch to different brand new content. In those MMOs, no one has been running 10-12 year old content for the entire 10-12 years. Also, people in a 10 year old MMO do not start off at year 1, day 1. They start off by looting stuff that would put them at like year 8 ready to raid year 9. This is a major part of the issue in DDO people are not wrapping their heads around in regards to how the reincarnation system differs from other MMO progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    The greater problem comes from gear. Having to keep several sets of gear for every class is a nightmare. Maintaining high minimum past levels on gear for years are the gear is obsolete is not useful. And when they finally do 'update' old gear they still keep the obnoxious minimum level they had in the past (even though the updated gear still probably isn't useful enough to wear at that level).

    It should be far easier to put on a set of gear as a level 1 character and ride it to level 30. At the very least we should be able to get dressed at level 1 and ride it to 20 with only a single clothing changed required at level 20 to get to level 30. The most balanced way to do this would be for gear to change its stats as you level (e.g. giving +1 or +2 strength at level 1 and giving an additional point of strength for every 1 or 2 levels you gain all the way up to cap). But if designing gear like that is too much work at least remove the minimum level on old gear so it's easier to find a single set of gear we can play through the game with.

    Most power should come from the class trees and epic destinies anyway and, if it did, it wouldn't be so unbalancing for a level 1 character to be wearing epic Sharn gear. Gear should be a nice little bonus on top of your class power, not the source of 90% of your power (as it is now). This is the game where +1 weapons were considered powerful magic because most power came from the character and gear was just a bonus. Making gear too important only compounds the problem for new players as many of them have no idea what they are expected to farm to be able to play well (and they shouldn't have to farm gear to be effective to begin with).
    Modern games scale your character to the level of the zone, so you can use the same ONE set of gear the entire time. GW2 is a good example of this. If my friend who started yesterday wants some help running missions, I can log any character on, and it scales to the level of the zone. If this person's character is level 19 and we are in a level 19 zone, my character scales and is level 19 as well. I dont need to keep alts laying around at lower levels in case I want to play those levels.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    How much percentage additional power do you think someone with all past lives has? You disagree with the gap, so let's hear your number.

    I suppose we should also talk about how long it would take to fill that gap, which I will be glad to engage in after you answer the above question. My first life took me at least 6 months, and I achieved completionist. I'm curious how long it took you for your first life?
    I'm saying it's a lot more front-loaded than 1% per life, assuming you're getting relevant PL's. Maybe 5% per life for the first 6 then drops to 2-3% for the next 6 then drops really far? But again, depends heavily on if you're sticking to the same stuff, or smattering across, or playing a healbot that gains almost nothing from PL's. Like a dedicated Wizard player's first 6 are amazing, and then what? Druid PL's so your skele can hit levers? That's a bit less than a 1% power gain IMO. Artificer for UMD? Could make an argument, but that's more a power window for 1-2 levels.

    Also depends heavily on what you run and how you run it. If you're heavily F2P with a few older packs, or running EBB instead of R4, or staying at 30 for a while it's all different. Even Pally PL, which is IMO the strongest for 95% of toons, 3x of them isn't nearly as important at level 30 with 200 healamp vs at level 4 with 20.

    My first TR was a few years into my DDO experience. I had ~70 toons spread across all the servers, the highest of which was all of 12, before I dropped to one main and started towards TRing. I TR every few months, but not on a regular schedule (I've done an Epic life in a week a few times). Sometimes I sit at cap and raid for a while.

    Disagreeing with a proposed solution is far different than trying to say there isn't a problem, or offering no solutions of your own. Circulate a better idea if you have one (be specific), or at least consider being supportive of those trying to offer solutions.
    I did offer a solution, one that's been proposed since the release thereof. Flip the order of Racial PL's. Racial AP > Ability > Skill, that way it's frontloaded instead of backloaded and players would be encouraged to try out races (good) instead of doing triples regardless of whether you like the race or not (IMO bad). I also agree with Stingae's solution proposed below, where the first five lives are cheap instead of just the first two.

    If you extrapolate your own experience onto others, this unfortunately tends to produce really inaccurate views of others. "The people you meet" are new players that are willing to tag along with vets. The ones you meet are the ones still playing. Using the people you meet to say nobody leaves because of grind would be pretty inappropriate. You will have to go beyond your own experience, and listen to the fact that people complain repeatedly about the grind on the forums, and that it is something they are upset about. Are you able to listen to others? Have you heard new players complain about the power gap on the forums? Do you think people leave the game because of the things they complain about?
    For certain, and I called that out my my first comment; that from the people leaving that isn't the reason I've heard, but that doesn't mean it isn't their reason. I've heard plenty of people complain that it's a huge grind if you want to get to the end of DDO, but again that's not the reason most people I see leaving give for leaving. I will also continue to argue that stuff like Ravenloft has done more for fixing that gap than most stuff Turbine did.

    People complaining (or lauding) on any forum are the extremes of the bell curve. Just because the viewpoint is most visible doesn't mean it's the most widespread. That's what I'm trying to include as well; forums mainly draw from certain parts of a community, and being the loudest part of said community doesn't make it the majority thereof. Like we had a string of sock account troll posting here, does that mean their viewpoint is the majority one?

    I'm a long-standing member in a new-player guild. I talk to new players all the time, run stuff with them, teach them raids, help them out, etc etc. For certain I've run into the grindwall of "yeah, if you want to play a Wizard you really need to do the legwork up front" but at the same time there's plenty more that can be "let's go run some Ravenloft and get you a scepter to help your DC issues!"

    Players leave the game when their play experience is not fun. The power gap from grind to earn $$$ design is certainly a part of that. People don't hang around for months when the play experience is not enjoyable, and "keep grinding, the game will eventually be fun" is not a sound design for getting new players.
    Vast majority of DDO players I've seen will say "play the game, have fun" instead of "keep grinding, fun later" lol. If you're playing a game for future enjoyment I think you're doing it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    most of us arent quite masochistic enough to hear Larz Heyton tell us once again for the 900th time, that we beat them off, this time.

    Also in pretty much any game where the character power progression is at end game, when they add an expansion, the new trash loot that drops is comparable to BiS loot from 2 expansions ago, so even the casual players can raid the previous expansion while the hard core players raid the current expansion. In DDO new players start at scratch. There is no catch up mechanism. The more power added, the less desirable it becomes for friends of existing players to join.
    You can turn of DM voice! Very nice for TRing I had mine off for the last few years and just turned it back on for Sharn. It's so weird!

    Ravenloft named is easily obtainable on a new player (presuming they have RL), and BiS or very close to it. Prior to RL I'd agree, but since then you can get a full gearset that's nearly as good as an endgame gearset just from Ravenloft, with a reasonably minimal amount of farming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stingae View Post
    My thought too! There are many occasions I don't mange 2 hours a week! I'd have to up my game time 7 fold just to be very casual apparently. I need to quit sleeping altogether or get a divorce to hit the dizzy heights of casual.

    Easy change and probably less controversial... why not delay the xp cost increases by a few lives. A lot of benefit comes with those first two build point bonuses. If a new player can get to 36 point builds before xp for 1-20 goes up to second life rates and maybe another 3 lives before it goes to current third life cost, that is less daunting. 5 lives under your belt is a nice starting point for things to slow down and does nothing for vets (except may be for their alts who might be tempted with a few cheap lives but I see that as a bonus win) and doesn't significantly under value their historic time input.
    I run scheduled raids, so on my slow weeks I'm on at least 4 hours/week for those, but yeah I'm not exactly at the 28/week to be a Casual :P

    I'm totally down for lower XP costs for 5 lives I just don't like it for 30+ as the OP was suggesting. 5 lives is enough to get 3 strong PL's, whatever you started with, and one more for kicks so you can get pretty well off the ground IMO (like 3x Wizard is the majority of DC casting HPL's).

    It would also help out the alt players, which I used to be and which I have plenty friends of, and those of us who park a toon or two somewhere for something (like a parked raid toon). I like it
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  17. #57
    Community Member Potatofasf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    A few years ago I added up the total PLs and came to 131. This was before more were added. Even someone farming as hard as you do getting a PL every 3 days and never taking a break would take longer than a year. Most players are not going at a quarter of that speed.

    But my real point here is: Lets not confuse difficulty with time consumption.

    In most other MMO players spend the vast majority of their time at max character power for that era. While the rewards can be much more DIFFICULT to obtain they typically do not take more TIME to obtain. The outliers are the exceptions here, and not the rule. Most people are fine with those in other games because this typically means single digit numbers of people having the item, and the entire game does not need to be balanced around the item.

    Its also not just the grind itself but the nature of the grind: Hamster wheel style.

    In DDO to get alot of PLs you are spending the vast majority of the character's time at something far less than max character power, and farming the same hamster wheel over and over again. Each time character power increases in another MMO it is added with new content to play through at the high end. In D&D our characters would be fighting the gods and traversing the planes at max level as each expansion gets added. In DDO we are back running waterworks for the 55th time...and kobold STILL hate you!!!

    The issue with the reincarnation system is not only the length of time it takes to farm the desired power, but the fact that the grind is repetitive at the low end, having you run 12 year old quests you've run 800 times before. While many of us are fully capable of running TRs once every 3 days, most of us arent quite masochistic enough to hear Larz Heyton tell us once again for the 900th time, that we beat them off, this time.

    Edit:

    Also in pretty much any game where the character power progression is at end game, when they add an expansion, the new trash loot that drops is comparable to BiS loot from 2 expansions ago, so even the casual players can raid the previous expansion while the hard core players raid the current expansion. In DDO new players start at scratch. There is no catch up mechanism. The more power added, the less desirable it becomes for friends of existing players to join.

    Exactly!
    The Hamster Wheel is boring, tiresome and not benefit the "knowledge about the game experience" since do the same quest 100 times stop adding up knowledge and becomes tedius and frustrating overtime.

    "Oh but you don't need to repeat each quest everytime..." Yeah... like there wasn't "mandatory" quest to gain some meaningful XP. Between Levels 1 - 9 we need to repeat quest even if you do all the quests each level. Between 10 - 15 is almost impossible to avoid some Monster XP quests... from 16 ahead we had some diversity, but still, at this point you just want to grab 20 and TR again for the Christ sake or park at 30 to play some full power content and enjoy like any other game let you do without all the Hamster wheel process.
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  18. #58
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    Default Close the Gap? Signed

    Loving the fact that there are so many recent posts like this lately.

  19. #59
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    As a person that long ago gave up alts (my choice, wasn't forced into that decision) because of my OCD nature of collecting as many lives as possible I'm currently on life:

    110 / 135

    Also we should forget what is on deck for more past lives...

    3x Heroic PL for Alchemist
    3x Iconic PL for Alchemist Iconic (likely/assuming)
    12x Epic Past Lives

    Total of 153

    Even though I've completed a bulk of what is available and will continue to do so I'd still be fine with them making it more accessible. Or at least throwing a bone to those that have done this work wishing to have a similar experience with an alt (probably another unpopular opinion).
    Last edited by Epitome; 06-12-2019 at 06:24 PM.
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  20. #60
    Community Member LazarusPossum's Avatar
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    When that day comes that DDO finally buys a headstone in Delara's graveyard, I hope Wizards of the Coast, Warner Bros., Facebook (hey, it could happen) or whoever owns the property would let the player base license the game for themselves and employ their own team of caretakers, because there's been a lot of effort invested here.
    "Why is stuff so hard?" - William Murderface

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