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  1. #1
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    Default 102 DC Still not enough to pop Sharn trash

    Greetings,

    Mostly just complaining here, so, you know. Move along.

    Been running the Sharn saga once or twice a day or so lately. My DCs are now 100+ for Enchantment and Illusion, and low 90s for Necromancy on my Eldritch Knight. But holy **** are there only a handful of mobs I can actually gib with a Phantasmal Killer spell. It bounces of nearly everything, does a little damage, and that's it. I don't often play even above R1, so I really don't understand why so many mobs are basically immune to the spell. What does it take to pop things like Triggermen, goblins, and the damn Gnolls, which seem to be only vulnerable to Evocation style CC?


    I have to wonder if they're inflating saves on mobs in anticipation of the Magister changes? In any case, it's getting really annoying to not be able to PK many mobs (Assassins in House of Pain can be gibbed, but most everyone else can't be).

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montegue View Post
    Greetings,

    Mostly just complaining here, so, you know. Move along.

    Been running the Sharn saga once or twice a day or so lately. My DCs are now 100+ for Enchantment and Illusion, and low 90s for Necromancy on my Eldritch Knight. But holy **** are there only a handful of mobs I can actually gib with a Phantasmal Killer spell. It bounces of nearly everything, does a little damage, and that's it. I don't often play even above R1, so I really don't understand why so many mobs are basically immune to the spell. What does it take to pop things like Triggermen, goblins, and the damn Gnolls, which seem to be only vulnerable to Evocation style CC?


    I have to wonder if they're inflating saves on mobs in anticipation of the Magister changes? In any case, it's getting really annoying to not be able to PK many mobs (Assassins in House of Pain can be gibbed, but most everyone else can't be).
    2 saves.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    As stated above you have two saves to contend with...

    The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal to disbelieve the spell and suffer no ill effects.
    If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear.
    Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 1d3+1 points of bane damage per caster level.

    Now you say you are Enchantment and Illusion focus.

    Do you have the Hypnotism SLA? This can make a rather nice combo of Hypnotism + PK as even if they save vs Hypnotism they will take a -3 Save penalty. You can also use a non-meta'd version of the spell as you are not as concerned with it landing as you are after the if they save benefit.

    Crushing Despair is a -5 will if they fail or a -2 to all saves if they succeed.

    For single target work, a Energy Drain + PK can also be a decent combo to land. Each level drained

    But what about the cost?

    Crushing Despair - 20 SP
    Hypnotism - 10 SP
    Energy Drain - 50 SP
    Phantasmal Killer - 25 SP to 50 SP

    Assuming you will use PK Heightened every cast that will be 50 SP per cast.

    If it takes you two casts of PK to land that is 100 SP

    If a -2 to -5 to their saves puts you in a better range to land casting CD or Hypno will be cheaper in the long run.

    However, if you take more then 3 PK casts a combo of ED + CD/Hypno + PK while over 100 SP will still be cheaper then PK 3x's +


    Mind Fog or Symbol of death is also a good to use if you can set up a zone to kill in.
    ----
    Basically, don't forget the debuffs

    Also, just a note. PK's works will on creatures with low fortitude saves, it might be good to look to other options for creatures with high fortitude saves even if they have a low will save.

  4. #4
    Forum witchdoctor Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    now im only 27 and my dc is mid 75 80 on hold. i can finger ez pk very rarely mass hold goes off well

    I use 1 necro ray first usually then finger
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whisper1 View Post
    2 saves.
    Sure, but, it's still a triple-digit DC on both saves, and it literally *never* works on the majority of the mobs in the new runs. So, their Fort saves are wildly inflated, compared to will saves, it would seem. Reflex, but contrast, seems to be more reliable.

  6. #6
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    With 130 Fort Saves on bruisers and +6 epic Resilience vs. spells you need a DC of 136 or so. Monks as a P2Win class with QP and soon to be EiN are the only class allowed to have instant kill DCs that high.

    You're f2p character will never reach that DC. You have to reroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    With 130 Fort Saves on bruisers and +6 epic Resilience vs. spells you need a DC of 136 or so. Monks as a P2Win class with QP and soon to be EiN are the only class allowed to have instant kill DCs that high.

    You're f2p character will never reach that DC. You have to reroll.
    How do you know fort saves? Testing? And what difficulty, how many skulls for this fort saves?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montegue View Post
    Greetings,

    Mostly just complaining here, so, you know. Move along.

    Been running the Sharn saga once or twice a day or so lately. My DCs are now 100+ for Enchantment and Illusion, and low 90s for Necromancy on my Eldritch Knight. But holy **** are there only a handful of mobs I can actually gib with a Phantasmal Killer spell. It bounces of nearly everything, does a little damage, and that's it. I don't often play even above R1, so I really don't understand why so many mobs are basically immune to the spell. What does it take to pop things like Triggermen, goblins, and the damn Gnolls, which seem to be only vulnerable to Evocation style CC?


    I have to wonder if they're inflating saves on mobs in anticipation of the Magister changes? In any case, it's getting really annoying to not be able to PK many mobs (Assassins in House of Pain can be gibbed, but most everyone else can't be).
    There was definitely stat inflation but also gear inflation, but I agree the stat inflation slightly exceeded the gear inflation for this update.

    For PK the enemy gets both a will and fort save so it's marginal in reaper without a high illusion "DC and the higher the skull the more marginal it becomes. I like your hybrid arcane warrior build (dc casting + martial for dps), but I think you need to stay away from PK with that build. You can probably get it to work on casters in ravenloft and some other older content.

    The key is understanding what the low save is for each enemy and then targeting those enemies with the right spells:

    Low Reflex: Web (constructs, undead).
    Low Will: Various enchantment cc
    Low Fort: Wail, Finger, Burst of Glacial Wrath, etc.

    For example I think your finger dc will work against vaunt guards and casters fairly reliably, but against most enemies I wouldn't even try. For wail there is a debuff component so you might be able to kill more enemies with wail than finger.

    For will based cc it's even more forgiving because you have some easy debuffs: crushing despair (no save against -5 will save so don't waste your spell points on metamagic -just cheap debuff), mind fog (only useful situationally, but if you are only dancing half of he enemies this might help).

    Also, you have a few good single target options with no save: Otto's irresistable dance, power word kill, power word stun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whisper1 View Post
    How do you know fort saves? Testing? And what difficulty, how many skulls for this fort saves?
    Trial and error. You will quickly figure out which enemies you can kill, dance, freeze etc. and that information is more important than your actual dc. You might need a 130 DC to kill certain enemies but with your DC you can still be effective if you target enemies with the right spell. There might be some enemies you can't deal with at all and for those you have otto's irrestable dance, power word stun, power word kill and more extreme debuffing (energy drain, enervation, wail, etc.)
    Last edited by slarden; 06-11-2019 at 10:44 AM.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    There's also an option to make proper caster. It works, unlike these "hybrid" builds, "battleclerics", archer or vistani favored souls or whatever newb traps "theorycrafted" here.

    Shahang (hjeal me), Wipekin (tempest), Nezhat (barbie) Ghallanda/Devourer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wipey View Post
    There's also an option to make proper caster. It works, unlike these "hybrid" builds, "battleclerics", archer or vistani favored souls or whatever newb traps "theorycrafted" here.
    This. Fort saves are roughly 125-130 in sharn chain 1. Enchantment spells such as HMM and Ottos Sphere are good with around 115-120 DC, Insta Kills you’ll want 120+.

    Trying to run a hybrid build in end game reaper is not going to cut it. Most of the builds are noob traps that highlight how good they are in heroic, which has very little to do with end game reaper+.
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  11. #11
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    Only semi-viable epic caster playstyle is shiradi spamming man.

    Come on if you have like 100 DC you should know that by now. DC casting is about as supported as Stealth mehanics.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wh070aa View Post
    Only semi-viable epic caster playstyle is shiradi spamming man.

    Come on if you have like 100 DC you should know that by now. DC casting is about as supported as Stealth mehanics.
    Lmao. Yup. People like these.

    DC casting is one of the strongest play styles right now. Just not on a sub optimal build.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wipey View Post
    There's also an option to make proper caster. It works, unlike these "hybrid" builds, "battleclerics", archer or vistani favored souls or whatever newb traps "theorycrafted" here.
    And by "proper builds," he really just means give up on instakill DCs and damage and healbot support in EA. I dunno why all the doublespeak, they aren't hitting 136 PK with their build either.

    And let's be totally honest here. A build is something you make and choose for your own road to success. Your "proper build" is really just remnants of what's left of a caster after SSG roadblocked everything else off and railroaded it into place.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 06-11-2019 at 10:52 PM.

  14. #14
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    You don't need 136 dc at all, or be a heal bot. You can hit high DCs on a EK dude but its tough as nails tbh and I don't recommend it. EK is super strong 1-30 up to r3, falls off a bit up to r5 and gets smoked higher in my opinion.

    Its easy to get respectable dcs on a first life wizard right now with what is in game, but you have to build for a dc caster and it'd help to have a reaper stat helm and festive int bonus if you can snag em.

    102 is a low dc, without a million past lives you can get 2-3 schools if you build right and gear to 110s, and like someone mentioned knowing which spells work best on mob types is extremely helpful. Good spell management is one of the most, if not most important part of playing a caster in ddo.

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  15. #15
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    With my PM I've definitely noticed the high saves; I think they're trying to give you a reason to upgrade your gear to U42 stuff. It seems a little counter-intuitive, but you need the newer gear to get your DCs high enough for things to go smoothly.

    EDIT: I think the 120+ and 136 DCs are for high reaper and no debuffs. I've been instakilling stuff in R1 with 102 necro DC and debuffs, so I'm guessing that 110 should make things fairly smooth for R1.

    You're definitely built to be more party friendly than my PM with those enchant DCs. If you're running in a party, your main goal is CC anyway so you should be fine with a hypno/crushing despair lead. Now if you're soloing, that's a different story. Unfortunately, I think your necro DCs are too low to be useful even with debuffs so you'll have to use illusion to instakill. I'm having trouble too with a 102 necro DC, and without having all the gear I need I'm burning a lot more sp on debuffs. Here are a few tricks I've learned as a pm while trying to solo farm gear. Some of this may be relevant to your enchant caster:

    1. Before anyone screams at me, this is for soloing. I would not use this in a party. What I usually do is drop a disco first to keep the ranged mobs busy and some of the melees, then use this combo on the melees that get past: Waves of Exhaustion + Fear. Gives you time to debuff the melees running away from you (very slowly) so you can pick them off with necro spells. Circle of Death, Wail, then chase them. SLA'd Enervation + FoD anything left. You could add Symbol of Death to the mix too if you have time to set up a kill zone.

    A modified version of this for your caster: disco first, possibly waves on anything that gets past (to give you time), hypno/crushing despair, then mass hold. This should give you some breathing room to debuff first and pick them off. Wail for the mass debuff, then maybe lead with energy drain/enervation before you pk anything. I think your pk will get through their will saves (especially with the hypno/crushing despair debuff), so it's the fort saves you're worried about.

    2. arcane insight, spellsurge (magister): do you have these clickies? Use one on the first mob, then use the other on the next mob. Then use debuffs to kill the next few mobs until your clickies are off cooldown.

    3. Another thing I've noticed: you don't always have to instakill. They have high saves but their HP isn't amazing, so DPS should work too.
    Last edited by vik1; 06-11-2019 at 11:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vik1 View Post
    EDIT: I think the 120+ and 136 DCs are for high reaper and no debuffs. I've been instakilling stuff in R1 with 102 necro DC and debuffs, so I'm guessing that 110 should make things fairly smooth for R1.
    Agreed, some of the #s thrown out in this thread are non-sensical for the difficulty OP runs and don't match up with my experience. I watched the vooduspyce twitch channel day 1 of Sharn while running sharn myself. He had a 106 enchant DC and was cc'ing quite a bit. With unmeta'd crushing despair this puts you in a good spot for cc. Here is his video channel if you'd like to see how he did with a 106 DC on R5 sharn:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9-...UvQSxjw/videos

    I focus on necro first and enchant second and my enchant dc of 110 worked fine throughout sharn. If it doesn't work well on a group of mobs web most likely will. You can see the warlock thread in my sig if you want to see a DC breakdown, but as an arcane warrior you simply won't have enough slots for some of the smaller bonuses. Still over the years I sometimes get a comment in my build threads that my build sucks because my dc is too low and yet I am soloing content on R5 no problem with those dcs because dc casting is about alot more than hitting a magic #: it's all about picking the rights spells for the right situation and knowing your enemies.

    The only thing you likely won't be able to resolve is getting pk to work because of the double save. There are too few enemies in Sharn with a low will and low fort save, but there are some. Your enchant DC is workable and I think you can get a little higher. your instakill will be very situational in sharn and you will have to experiment. Vaunt guards do quite a bit of damage but have low fort saves. That's a good place to start testing.
    Last edited by slarden; 06-12-2019 at 05:56 AM.

  17. #17
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    And by "proper builds," he really just means give up on instakill DCs and damage and healbot support in EA. I dunno why all the doublespeak, they aren't hitting 136 PK with their build either.

    And let's be totally honest here. A build is something you make and choose for your own road to success. Your "proper build" is really just remnants of what's left of a caster after SSG roadblocked everything else off and railroaded it into place.
    that would be because you don't need 136. You make a non specialised build don't expect it to perform like one
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    Everything lands harder there, dont worry. Even AC is a bit "too high". Forget about not landing mostly grazing hits if you dont have good accuracy gear or isnt in a class/race that gives +X to hit with a given weapon. Power atack gets even closer to oblivion now already on LH-LE. There is a real gap beteween sharn and other content of the same CR in concerns of DC and AC. Stats inflation is not nearly close to the AC/DC inflation on mobs but its kind ok. New stuff, new challenges. Hybrids got a harder time doing specific jobs but makes up by combining multiple ones.
    Last edited by DaviMOC; 06-12-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaviMOC View Post
    Everything lands harder there, dont worry. Even AC is a bit "too high". Forget about not landing mostly grazing hits if you dont have good accuracy gear or isnt in a class/race that gives +X to hit with a given weapon. Power atack gets even closer to oblivion now already on LH-LE. There is a real gap beteween sharn and other content of the same CR in concerns of DC and AC. Stats inflation is not nearly close to the AC/DC inflation on mobs but its kind ok. New stuff, new challenges. Hybrids got a harder time doing specific jobs but makes up by combining multiple ones.
    It just seems a little silly to me, especially when it comes to trash. Getting through trash should require reasonable DCs - 100-105 seems like it should be enough to deal with goblin archers and gnolls and the like.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montegue View Post
    It just seems a little silly to me, especially when it comes to trash. Getting through trash should require reasonable DCs - 100-105 seems like it should be enough to deal with goblin archers and gnolls and the like.

    100-105 was ok ish (still bit low) for the last expansion, now you can get better DCs due to new gear so of course the okish (but still low) dc for the last expansion wont be great.
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