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  1. #61
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    So when all the people who don't get gud, get out, and take their money with them, who will be left to design the raids that none of them could beat? This is what I really think most of the get gud crowd fail to understand. If you alienate 85% of the player base, the game will cease. Then how do you run your raids that nobody else was gud enough for?

    This is not DDO 2010 when the game population was much larger and content was much more difficult. There is a reason epic quests are much easier than they were originally. There is a reason The Cruicible is no longer needed to flag in GH, and you don't need to turn in 60 relics anymore. There is a reason that quests are so much easier to solo than in 2008. Your game developers likely know this, and that is why they are adjusting the raid.

    Nobody said they want stuff handed to them, or a guaranteed win, that is just hyperbole the git gud crowd uses so they can continue to feel superior. Grats to you. You completed the raid on its easiest difficulty (or two) prenerf. That makes you what?
    I hated that they nerfed the Gianthold stuff. You also don't have to get bloodied in tor anymore as far as I know. This is bull ****. It was really easy to flag before any of those nerfs. I can personally solo crucible in 14-18 minutes depending. Further more... So long as you loot ALL OF THE CHESTS in gianthold, including all of the walkups, you get pretty close to the 20 of each relic naturally, sure you might have to rerun a quest in each area, however thats just the way it was.

    I mean... If getting bloodied was to hard for the average player... **Literally the only mechanics** Kill both the giant and dragon less than 10 seconds apart, and keep them separated. If these players couldn't follow these simple mechanics, they didn't deserve to raid.
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  2. #62
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    http://bfy.tw/O3oy

    I usually use youtube because I learn visually a lot better. Although you're right I never looked at the wiki for the raid, there are still plenty of youtube videos on the raid.
    I've seen plenty of you tube videos on the raid. Not many explain much. The one that does wipes twice. I can see where people that are not parts of regular raiding groups are having difficulty learning the raid. You basically have one good write up floating around. So if you read that, watch completions of raid streams you can get an idea of what it is like. But there is a large step to actually performing in the raid. I for one am glad they scaled it back so others can start to complete it more regularly. It's not like they made it pull a lever and win. It is still going to take communication and teamwork, and still can get messy quick.
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  3. #63
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We will be interested to hear people's feedback if they run it in the next couple of days. My suspicion is it's still no cakewalk, just more doable, and maybe now doable by DDO's elite raiders on Elite?
    Closest I’ve heard (neither by my groups) was that two different groups on Ghallanda were able to get to the 3rd phase of the raid on r1.
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  4. #64
    Community Member Loromir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    You don't have to learn the raid by being in the raid... Use youtube, use the wiki. Further more, PAST LIVES ARE NOT NEEDED. On my server there is a player who refuses to TR, he has 30++ toons all first lifers at cap. He is one of the most badass players I know, because he does top tier content as a first lifer.

    Why is he able to do this you might ask? He learns how to build his characters, he learns that gearing isn't optional, he learns the content that he is going to be attempting, he plays as a group communicating and carrying through with strategies.
    I've watched Youtube and Twitch videos of this raid. I basically know what to do. I can't survive 2 hits in there. I go in with 1800 hit points and feel tiny compared to everyone else who has 2500+. I literally went into a THTH raid and was the only player under 2500 HP.

    I've been involved in a couple of THTH fails...never a success. I've hit many THTH LFM's only to see deafening silence. The Wiki was devoid of THTH information until about 10 days ago.

    Maybe it doesn't require past lives...but it does require gear. I've farmed till my eyes bleed (when I actually have time to be online) for gear, and still half my gear slots are sub optimal (other half is best in slot for my build). Heck, guess what Helm I wear....The Iconic Scourge starter mask (which has insightful Healing Amp...rather than enhacnement bonus...which means it stacks). Some of my other slots leave a lot to be desired.

    If I had time to farm the best gear...I might feel differently. I might even agree with you. There are tons of us out here just like me. You want us excluded.

    Thankfully this game is big enough I probably don't have to cross paths with you. And Thankfully, there are smarter people running this game than either me or you...and they have settle this argument for us. For that...I say a big hearty THANK YOU SSG for being the voice of reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    Opening up the casual difficulty for raids would have been a much better solution. Since all the whiners are just complaining about not being able to play through the content they paid for. Just give them their casual difficulty. Since they are just a bunch of casuals.


    Proud Member of the Bunch of Casuals Club!!!!!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    So when all the people who don't get gud, get out, and take their money with them, who will be left to design the raids that none of them could beat? This is what I really think most of the get gud crowd fail to understand. If you alienate 85% of the player base, the game will cease. Then how do you run your raids that nobody else was gud enough for?
    I disagree. You are making assumptions that 85% of the players raid or even have an interest in raiding.

    You are making assumptions that that 85% even make significant enough monetary transactions in the game. Without seeing any numbers, I would hazard a guess it holds true to the 80-20 principal with 20% making 80% of the sales. I would say I spend upwards of $1k on this game in a year and still believe it's a steal with all the endless hours of entertainment I get out of it. You can't sell me on the idea of casual gamers spending that kind of money on a single game.

    You are making assumptions that the gud crowd already allows the not gud crowd into their raids.

    I would argue that without the incentive to improve one's character and play, you are alienating those whose put in the time, energy and resources for the reward. This is where you lose the most dedicated players in the game.

    You likely lose more incoming players just by the clunkyness of finding and getting to the quests rather than difficulty completing a quest.

  6. #66
    Community Member Graskitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seph1roth5 View Post
    Hey Cordovon how about some numbers on other raids? It'd be interesting to see # of VoN vs. # of heroic tempest spine and such. Ooooh in chart form!
    yeah we need some healthy competition among the servers.

    I would like to see more of these statistics published on a weekly or monthly basis.

  7. #67
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    I think no matter how easy you make something, most people would not even try. Past lives and gear matter, but it's always been the attitude. You can play 50 hours a week doing endless r1 EN hamster wheel or you can play few hours on the weekend running r10 and raid. Everyone is somewhere in between ?

    "Difficult" stuff like high reaper and raiding gets done by the same folks and circles as two, three or five years ago.
    The raid and the discussion has been breath of fresh air.
    Both fresh newb or bad ass vet should have fun but "I paid for it so I should get it" is the most absurd argument in any (multiplayer) game ever.

    On another note, it would be interesting to see quests, difficulties "statistics" for other raids and quests ?

    Ran EN - top notch Gland "pug". EN is really easy now ?
    Last edited by Wipey; 06-11-2019 at 03:22 PM.

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  8. #68
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    I disagree. You are making assumptions that 85% of the players raid or even have an interest in raiding.

    You are making assumptions that that 85% even make significant enough monetary transactions in the game. Without seeing any numbers, I would hazard a guess it holds true to the 80-20 principal with 20% making 80% of the sales. I would say I spend upwards of $1k on this game in a year and still believe it's a steal with all the endless hours of entertainment I get out of it. You can't sell me on the idea of casual gamers spending that kind of money on a single game.

    You are making assumptions that the gud crowd already allows the not gud crowd into their raids.

    I would argue that without the incentive to improve one's character and play, you are alienating those whose put in the time, energy and resources for the reward. This is where you lose the most dedicated players in the game.

    You likely lose more incoming players just by the clunkyness of finding and getting to the quests rather than difficulty completing a quest.
    THIS RIGHT HERE. Personally, I don't raid a whole lot yet. I will hop into a raid every now and then, but my primary focus has been TRing getting past lives, just cause I like to do that. I will start raiding more seriously when I get all of the past lives, which is why I don't want them to be nerfed to the ground when I do get there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Loromir View Post
    I've watched Youtube and Twitch videos of this raid. I basically know what to do. I can't survive 2 hits in there. I go in with 1800 hit points and feel tiny compared to everyone else who has 2500+. I literally went into a THTH raid and was the only player under 2500 HP.

    I've been involved in a couple of THTH fails...never a success. I've hit many THTH LFM's only to see deafening silence. The Wiki was devoid of THTH information until about 10 days ago.

    Maybe it doesn't require past lives...but it does require gear. I've farmed till my eyes bleed (when I actually have time to be online) for gear, and still half my gear slots are sub optimal (other half is best in slot for my build). Heck, guess what Helm I wear....The Iconic Scourge starter mask (which has insightful Healing Amp...rather than enhacnement bonus...which means it stacks). Some of my other slots leave a lot to be desired.

    If I had time to farm the best gear...I might feel differently. I might even agree with you. There are tons of us out here just like me. You want us excluded.

    Thankfully this game is big enough I probably don't have to cross paths with you. And Thankfully, there are smarter people running this game than either me or you...and they have settle this argument for us. For that...I say a big hearty THANK YOU SSG for being the voice of reason.

    I am also thankful that you and I will most likely never cross paths, I mean I am on Khyber after all. Although I would be curious to see what build you are running that you are having such troubles with the content :P
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  9. #69
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wipey View Post
    "Difficult" stuff like high reaper and raiding gets done by the same folks and circles as two, three or five years ago.
    The raid and the discussion has been breath of fresh air.
    Both fresh newb or bad ass vet should have fun but "I paid for it so I should get it" is the most absurd argument in any (multiplayer) game ever.
    Agreed... This argument is getting old. "I paid for it, so I should be able to run it" Like... No... Thats not the way it works... Thats like someone buying a Dark Souls game, and complaining that they aren't able to beat it cause its too hard, so they want their money back.

    Like, get out...

    If you want to talk about how you paid for the content so you should be able to run it... Why don't you buy an uber account from someone for several thousand dollars. So you can then enjoy the content.
    Last edited by banjo174; 06-11-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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  10. #70
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Get off your high horses people.

    Every raid should be easily completed by the average pug (assuming good teamwork and with just a little knowledge of the raid mechanics (ideally from knowledge available in the game itself.)

    That should be the benchmark for normal difficulty.

    For those who do not agree, or are "triggered" that normal is too easy, you are welcome to play the higher difficulties, there is no justifiable reason to promote exclusive ideas during a time when we (DDO community as a whole) need to be more inclusive and welcoming. The survival of DDO depends on it.

    There is no reason to go taking a dump on the lawns of those who are destined to play normal.
    Last edited by Mellkor; 06-11-2019 at 03:20 PM.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    Get off your high horses people.

    Every raid should be easily completed by the average pug (assuming good teamwork and little to no knowledge of the raid mechanics.)

    That should be the benchmark.

    For those who do not agree, or are "triggered" that normal is too easy, you are welcome to play the higher difficulties, there is no justifiable reason to promote exclusive ideas during a time when we (DDO community as a whole) need to be more inclusive and welcoming. The survival of DDO depends on it.

    There is no reason to go taking a dump on the lawns of those who are destined to play normal.
    Yep.

    +1
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  12. #72
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    Get off your high horses people.

    Every raid should be easily completed by the average pug (assuming good teamwork and with just a little knowledge of the raid mechanics (ideally from knowledge available in the game itself.)

    That should be the benchmark for normal difficulty.
    What do you find as the most challenging mechanic in the raid? I think most find it is the promotion of yellow to orange and orange to reds when you kill in proximity. Next time you step in the raid, drop down and kill the trash actually stop and listen/read what they say....they tell you why they are promoting to the next level in the first minute in the raid. Nothing is a mystery here...execution is often poor in pugs, but the mechanic itself is not cryptic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    Get off your high horses people.

    Every raid should be easily completed by the average pug (assuming good teamwork and with just a little knowledge of the raid mechanics (ideally from knowledge available in the game itself.)

    That should be the benchmark for normal difficulty.

    For those who do not agree, or are "triggered" that normal is too easy, you are welcome to play the higher difficulties, there is no justifiable reason to promote exclusive ideas during a time when we (DDO community as a whole) need to be more inclusive and welcoming. The survival of DDO depends on it.

    There is no reason to go taking a dump on the lawns of those who are destined to play normal.

    The consistent whinings give the feel of, why should I need to work toward it, or I'm not going to put the time toward it...I prefer to mostly walk through the content and pick up my loot at the end. Suddenly over this raid, the rest of the 99+% remarkably easy content just doesn't seem good enough anymore. You always want what you can't have.

    I can't say what the definition of average pug would be, but I would even advocate going yet a step further. Have a single difficulty setting for any future raids. Of course, I can't expect any such thing to come to fruition with all the spoon-feeding the population has been trained on.

    As for myself, I don't believe dedicated player populations dwindle because content is too difficult, quite the opposite, it's because there isn't much else to get out of playing the game.

    I've always thought that by creating relationships and challenging content in an MMO, this is what brings longevity.
    Last edited by entropyspinner; 06-11-2019 at 03:57 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post

    As for myself, I don't believe dedicated player populations dwindle because content is too difficult, quite the opposite, it's because there isn't much else to get out of playing the game.

    I've always thought that by creating relationships and challenging content in an MMO, this is what brings longevity.
    There's a difference between challenging content and punishing content.

    Raiding guilds can at least take the punishing content because they're masochists.

    Punishing content like 2H2H and RSO turn more casual players off and, frankly, will chase them away if it becomes a trend.
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  15. #75
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    The consistent whinings give the feel of, why should I need to work toward it, or I'm not going to put the time toward it...I prefer to mostly walk through the content and pick up my loot at the end. Suddenly over this raid, the rest of the 99+% remarkably easy content just doesn't seem good enough anymore. You always want what you can't have.

    I can't say what the definition of average pug would be, but I would even advocate going yet a step further. Have a single difficulty setting for any future raids. Of course, I can't expect any such thing to come to fruition with all the spoon-feeding the population has been trained on.

    As for myself, I don't believe dedicated player populations dwindle because content is too difficult, quite the opposite, it's because there isn't much else to get out of playing the game.
    For experienced players (myself included) we have the higher difficulties with higher rewards to satisfy the challenge we seek. No harm no foul. I can see a good argument for better loot as the difficulty increases. All the way to R10. Maybe something like Elite Raid gear having better stats and with the ability to add mythic bonuses via threads of fate, with Reaper Raid Gear up-gradable to a higher degree with both mythic and reaper bonuses via threads of fate with Normal Raid Gear being static and not up-gradable at all. I will tell ya, something like that would REALLY make raiding much more popular and inclusive than it is now. This would satisfy elite players and casuals alike.

    For the average casual player, this raid especially, is far beyond them. It should not be. I have known many average casual players that have left the game (at least partially) because of the difficulty (and hence exclusiveness) of some of the raids on normal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    There's a difference between challenging content and punishing content.

    Raiding guilds can at least take the punishing content because they're masochists.

    Punishing content like 2H2H and RSO turn more casual players off and, frankly, will chase them away if it becomes a trend.
    It can only be punishing if you enter into one that you did not bother to prepare for. That's on you. I can't think of any content, this includes Sharn, where information you seek is not available to you with a simple lookup.

    This is not masochism. You must be willing to fail, and fail often, in order to succeed. Any truly successful individual would acknowledge this.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropyspinner View Post
    It can only be punishing if you enter into one that you did not bother to prepare for. That's on you. I can't think of any content, this includes Sharn, where information you seek is not available to you with a simple lookup.

    This is not masochism. You must be willing to fail, and fail often, in order to succeed. Any truly successful individual would acknowledge this.
    I've got several toons in Lava Divers on Khyber. Reaper content is the norm for them.

    The Divers are nothing if not persistent. Most are also masochists. I say that because they'll run reaper RSO which is NOT a fun raid, yet they'll do it anyway.

    But guess what? It works for them.

    It won't work for your more casual players, though.
    Last edited by Arkat; 06-11-2019 at 04:44 PM.
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  18. #78
    Brains and other spare parts! DeltaBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    There is no reason if they are using team play and mechanics that they could not complete yesterday. I have seen and heard pug completions on many servers. Granted they will have to take the time and effort to learn those mechanics...but that is part of the raid. I dare say that any guild that completed it within a week or two of it coming out did so with much work and effort into understanding the raid, how it works and how to beat it. In a pug setting that comes slower as there are always different pieces in place but that doesn't mean it is was too hard...just complex which doesn't have to be a bad thing.

    Iam quite sure that the completed runs on normal are pretty selective on who they bring along. I know the times we have completed it now we where. And as much as i like the challenge myself. I can, like said before just step it up in difficulty, if i think it is getting borring now on hard or elite. But we are locking newer player out from playing quest and for what our own eliteits egos ? That we dont want others to complete the raid on the lowest difficulty out there ?
    On reaper its something completely different as SSG said when reaper came out. This is not for every body.. But iam pretty sure they never said that normal is not for every body.

    Anyways iam not gonna discuss this anymore iam happy that SSG did the change i want more players to get the options to play all the quests in this game without ever feeling not suitible for a run on normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    For experienced players (myself included) we have the higher difficulties with higher rewards to satisfy the challenge we seek. No harm no foul. I can see a good argument for better loot as the difficulty increases. All the way to R10. Maybe something like Elite Raid gear having better stats and with the ability to add mythic bonuses via threads of fate, with Reaper Raid Gear up-gradable to a higher degree with both mythic and reaper bonuses via threads of fate with Normal Raid Gear being static and not up-gradable at all. I will tell ya, something like that would REALLY make raiding much more popular and inclusive than it is now. This would satisfy elite players and casuals alike.
    I agree, there needs to be a reward relative to the work put towards it. I had once proposed something similar as described here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/503192

    For the average casual player, this raid especially, is far beyond them. It should not be. I have known many average casual players that have left the game (at least partially) because of the difficulty (and hence exclusiveness) of some of the raids on normal.
    When I DM'd D&D campaigns I would throw in high level encounters into low level campaigns. Such as a level 3 party observes a huge red dragon harassing a town in the distance. They have the liberty and choice to try and help the town to their certain deaths, or to continue on their merry way to their original objective. I would then tie that encounter to when they were at least another 10 to 15 levels higher later in the campaign.

    My point is, just because it's there doesn't mean that you are ready or meant to face that challenge at this time. This game no longer has the limited content restrictions it had in the past. It's incredible just how much content is now out there.

    With that said, with the more challenging runs, I always made it a point to keep at least a couple non-critical spots available to pugs, first timers or "getting over their heads" players so that they can experience and understand what it's like to properly run a raid and earn a completion. With the existing trend of, let's open this up to everyone so they can get a practically guaranteed completion, devalues my efforts made with the server.

    Thanks partly to this thread and it's attitude of entitlement, I no longer find that including sub-par toons and players in my raids or my daily R10 quests, provides any long term value to the player base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    The Divers are nothing if not persistent. Most are also masochists. I say that because they'll run reaper RSO which is NOT a fun raid, yet they'll do it anyway.
    With a bit of prep work, I find this to be one of the easiest and more straight-forward raids to run on reaper.
    Have electrical energy sheath.
    Have electrical absorption item.
    Share and step on runes every 2-4 lightning bolts.
    Stay together as a group with one person sneaking up ahead to unlock the gates.

    There's not much more to it than that.

    Should no longer be a challenge with current gear. I also find it fun and relaxing as it's an easy thread farm and I don't have to coordinate everyone's goings on.

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