Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 289101112131415 LastLast
Results 221 to 240 of 284
  1. #221
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Time, that could be spent on something more productive than turning entertainment into a painful daily workout.
    That's your problem, actually. Not sure why having alts less powerful than a main bothers you (all) so much.

    Play what's fun, then the only grind is in your mind. No one is forcing you to "grind", and as has been stated there is no real need anyway. The game has settings to accommodate anyone from new first lifers to triple completionists that have been playing for many years.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  2. #222
    Community Member janave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,683

    Default

    Thats miss and miss..

    I personally only care for a healthy reduction by shuffling the good stuff to the front .

    That said, the amount of delirium in this thread is amusing.

  3. #223
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,335

    Default

    Understanding your market audience is key here.

    Players are fine playing on a lesser setting when its something like R5 vs R1, but they arent going to be fine being priced out of a progression earning game space where entire progression systems are now "off-limits" because they have to build from zero all over again. Min maxers dont log off of their NFL caliber star player in a football game to log onto the out of shape kid who played flag football for an hour in gym class who cant even make the middle school JV team. Telling players to be satisfied with that gap in power is unintentionally unrealistic at best, and on-purpose schadenfreude at worst.

  4. #224
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    472

    Default

    @Chai

    On a more personal note, I am rather offended by your signature, good sir.

    Rock is OP??? Rock's been being nerfed since it was released U13. Yeah, and paper is "fine", what kind of player says that? I know no-one in all of Cannith that agrees that paper is "fine". Paper is a broken gimp tree that only works in one quest.

  5. #225
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisTOTG View Post
    I don't really want to start another character with 0 past lives, 0 tomes, 0 destinies, 0 anything. But I'd like to have a character I could raid with while TRing my main.

    The only design-type problem I have with this game is how unfriendly it is to alts. There are currently a total of 147 past life feats in game (including the new 4x3=12 epic past lives):

    * Heroic, 14x3=42
    * racial, 12x3=36
    * iconic, 7x3=21
    * epic 16x3=48


    Total: 147


    Now you don't need to have 147 past lives just to play, but I sure wish creating alts had more incentive. I'd be quite happy to pay for supreme +8, XP tomes, bags and bank slots for an alt that shared the dozen or so past lives I have on my main... but it took me a year to get those PLs and I'm just not going to start a second character with nothing.

    Hi, this is just a simple technical issue because seven years ago
    Guild Wars 2 has already implemented it. GW2's WXP upgrades were shared between all characters.
    Its function is the same as DDO Reaper enhancements. GW2 all servers use one LFM, one LFM were shared between all servers.
    Why does SSG not solve the problem? I feel very troubled
    Last edited by Zhijie; 06-23-2019 at 01:50 PM.

  6. #226
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    @Chai

    On a more personal note, I am rather offended by your signature, good sir.

    Rock is OP??? Rock's been being nerfed since it was released U13. Yeah, and paper is "fine", what kind of player says that? I know no-one in all of Cannith that agrees that paper is "fine". Paper is a broken gimp tree that only works in one quest.
    Scissors must not play on Cannith then.

  7. #227
    Community Member Grimtooth333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    And if we still had that game, we'd all have had 50 L10 characters within a year and left to go do something else in 2007.
    Were you even playing then? This game went to level 20 before all the reincarnation stuff even began. And yes it was still "that game".

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    That's funny, because of the new players I have introduced, none of them have said "Wow this is a fun game, but I don't want to invest the time in the grind so I'm outta here".
    My experience is not what yours is... so your players input seemingly refutes mine in some way? Making my input here less than yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    It was the lack of heroic LFMs that weren't zerg fests (TR junkies - which is proof that a lot of vets enjoy getting PLs). With so many people playing nothing but end-game content (as if running the same 10 quests over and over isn't "grindy") or racing through the TR process, there are very few heroic N/H/E lfm's for them to join, and solo'ing is not everyone's cup of tea. As a matter of fact, it's the new players that enjoy solo'ing quests that seem to stick around more often than those that enjoy grouping because the players have been split into so many splinter groups (cliques) it really is hard to find groups that are a good fit. Shared reaper points might help get more "vets" together, but it won't help new players. Shared PL's will only further the gap between new players and vets.
    You completely missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Your time invested is rewarded, the rewards are just spread out among your many alts, which you all claim is how you have "fun" - trying new builds, having many different roles to choose from when partying, etc.
    And again, you missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    The problem is you want to shove a solution down everyone's throats that many of us think is bad for the game, and some of us have listed why we think it is bad. When alternate solutions are offered that "make the game less grindy" for everyone, solo/altoholics/new/vets, etc. you shoot it down, which makes me kind of question your motive of just wanting to get the" benefits of your time invested", it really looks like you just want your play style to be rewarded MORE than others.
    I am "shoving" something down your throat? Voicing my opinion is shoving something down your throat?

    The reasons you and others have posted in the past for why shared everything is bad don't sway me either. I respectfully disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    It widens the gap between all vets and all new players.
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Those don't invalidate the argument against sharing of PLs at all. Just because a little of something is good, doesn't mean a lot more of something is better.
    On my end they do, shared bank, favor account unlocks, shared plat, crafting ingredient storage, these all invalidate most of the arguments made. We already share, these other systems should as well.
    Once again, I disagree with you one this. Which is natural, because where I am coming from here seems to be alien to you. We aren't going to agree on anything in any case here.

    Fedora1 you really seem to miss the point of the whole argument but others get it so I'll use one of those quotes instead;
    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Missing the point again, our characters had never earned or worked for anything, "We" the player did, who have limited time. Time, that could be spent on something more productive than turning entertainment into a painful daily workout.
    Then you respond with this;
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    That's your problem, actually. Not sure why having alts less powerful than a main bothers you (all) so much.

    Play what's fun, then the only grind is in your mind. No one is forcing you to "grind", and as has been stated there is no real need anyway. The game has settings to accommodate anyone from new first lifers to triple completionists that have been playing for many years.
    I'll try one last time, to us there are no alts or mains. No alts or mains... we the player are 'earning' these things. Feel free to disagree but it changes nothing of how we will continue to see things on our end.

    We aren't "shoving" anything down peoples throats, we aren't asking for free things we don't have to earn as a player, just that the effort required to earn them is the same overall time as others who play only one character. For those that think like we do sharing past-lives and RXP accomplishes this and moreover to us it doesn't impede the one character focused players in the slightest, and even helps new players, granted not your type of new player, but it sure helps mine feel better about sticking around.

    With the overall tone of your post, I realize I'm likely just making an enemy here, but I have read your proposals, they simply don't address the problem. You can't really address someones issue or propose a competent solution if you can't at least understand where those you are proposing a solution to are coming from in the first place, you seem unwilling or incapable of that so that leaves us at an impasse.
    Khyber

  8. #228
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    Were you even playing then? This game went to level 20 before all the reincarnation stuff even began. And yes it was still "that game".
    Obviously you missed my point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    My experience is not what yours is... so your players input seemingly refutes mine in some way? Making my input here less than yours?
    I said it was funny, as in, interesting. Mine does not refute yours nor diminish it, nor does your experience mine. It was a counter-point. Am I not allowed to post my experience?


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    You completely missed the point.
    I would say you missed the point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    And again, you missed the point.
    Ditto. Shall we continue this game of trying to refute someone by a condescending "You missed the point" reply?


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    I am "shoving" something down your throat? Voicing my opinion is shoving something down your throat?
    When your retorts to alternate solutions are simply "No. Because. That's why." It sure looks like you are being stiff-necked and only want this one solution, which as has been stated, widens the gap between all vets and all new players, among other possible negative effects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    The reasons you and others have posted in the past for why shared everything is bad don't sway me either. I respectfully disagree.
    Well that's fine, although I don't see how it is possible to refute the huge chasm that will suddenly appear between new players and vets should this be implemented. You think there are grouping issues now? Just wait.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    On my end they do, shared bank, favor account unlocks, shared plat, crafting ingredient storage, these all invalidate most of the arguments made. We already share, these other systems should as well.
    All of these provide a way toward either gearing a character better or the opportunity to play a new race/class. None of them provide a direct power increase to every single character you create. Even with the sharing of BTA gear and CC, the character must be at a level capable of using it. The favor feats that grant "power" only affect the character you played to acquire it (Draconic HP for example). So no, none of these invalidate a single argument against your desire for shared PLs. Apples to oranges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    I'll try one last time, to us there are no alts or mains. No alts or mains... we the player are 'earning' these things. Feel free to disagree but it changes nothing of how we will continue to see things on our end.
    Whatever you call it doesn't matter. I get the point. Time YOU the person has played, you want that time to make a stable of characters "better". You want to try different builds, make different roles, or whatever, and you don't want to do it with a "weaker" character, you want all your characters (which all represent you, the player) to be as powerful as the next. I don't see how you fail to see the huge chasm that creates for new players to catch up?

    Even in your experience where the new players see this huge slog to attain "x" level of power, they still not only must climb that mountain, but now not a single vet has a toon that is not way beyond their capability to run with. You say it helps them... but how? Sure, if they ALSO want to create 32 toons, they can advance them all the same, but all 32 are still left way behind all your "suddenly uber" toons. I don't know about you, but I pull out an appropriate toon to run with newer players, and we run hard or elite or whatever and guess what? It's still fun. No reapers are popping up, champs are not one-shotting us, we complete quests, get loot, gain xp, and go run another quest. It's not grindy.

    Your idea is bad for new players. Obviously with the intro of reaper, the game is already tough on new players (which is why I changed my mind and agree that sharing rxp in some form could be good), but your idea widens the gap even more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    We aren't "shoving" anything down peoples throats, we aren't asking for free things we don't have to earn as a player, just that the effort required to earn them is the same overall time as others who play only one character. For those that think like we do sharing past-lives and RXP accomplishes this and moreover to us it doesn't impede the one character focused players in the slightest, and even helps new players, granted not your type of new player, but it sure helps mine feel better about sticking around.
    Already addressed these points above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    With the overall tone of your post, I realize I'm likely just making an enemy here,
    Not an enemy. There is probably only one person on the forums I don't care for, and it's not you. lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    but I have read your proposals, they simply don't address the problem.
    I believe they do, and they don't widen the gap between vets and new players.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    You can't really address someones issue or propose a competent solution if you can't at least understand where those you are proposing a solution to are coming from in the first place, you seem unwilling or incapable of that so that leaves us at an impasse.
    I do understand. Don't forget, I too have 19 toons on my main server, have toons across all servers and actually still play on 3 other servers at least once per week. I won't bring up my 2 other accounts since I haven't actively played them in a while.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  9. #229
    Community Member Grimtooth333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I said it was funny, as in, interesting. Mine does not refute yours nor diminish it, nor does your experience mine. It was a counter-point. Am I not allowed to post my experience?
    As my original statement was a reply to erethizon, your post replying to me did appear to me as an attempt to diminish/refute my statement to him. Since that wasn't your intention, no worries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    When your retorts to alternate solutions are simply "No. Because. That's why." It sure looks like you are being stiff-necked and only want this one solution, which as has been stated, widens the gap between all vets and all new players, among other possible negative effects.
    When have I stated here "No. Because. That's why."? As far as being "stiff-necked" about this, I'm guilty as charged. Myself and others here do indeed champion this shared solution, that's why we are posting here.

    However, as I am in agreement with the OP and others that these things should be shared account wide, the onus is actually on you and the other dissenters to provide convincing arguments of why your position is the correct one here. I don't agree with your statements of widening gaps or negative effects from this proposal, because we seem to be from totally different planets on this subject, likely I never will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Whatever you call it doesn't matter. I get the point. Time YOU the person has played, you want that time to make a stable of characters "better". You want to try different builds, make different roles, or whatever, and you don't want to do it with a "weaker" character, you want all your characters (which all represent you, the player) to be as powerful as the next.
    You veer off the rails after "I get the point." We seem to be coming at this from drastically differing starting points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I don't see how you fail to see the huge chasm that creates for new players to catch up?
    I see a larger chasm for new players now. Yet another disconnect for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    You say it helps them... but how?
    It has been said that there are 140+ past lives, right now you have to do it on a per-character basis. For some of us in a certain camp of players that is an abhorrent time investment and is a restrictive element to the game, it also feels unfair because of the current sharing systems in place. By sharing these you make the journey a 'one and done' for the account, this equalizes the time needed to get to the top of the mountain. It makes everyone's time investment equal in value. The reincarnations can be spread out throughout the players stable, their progress is equal as well as the overall time invested. Earned rewards are always there once unlocked. The reduced overall time investment needed will indeed help retain newer players to this older game.

    Now I know you likely will not agree with one iota of that answer, and further debate between us on this is likely to go nowhere. So please consider it a reply for others to read for posterity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I do understand. Don't forget, I too have 19 toons on my main server, have toons across all servers and actually still play on 3 other servers at least once per week. I won't bring up my 2 other accounts since I haven't actively played them in a while.
    Your replies here indicate to me we are not understanding or convincing one another at all. Since we aren't making any head-way at this point we likely need to just agree to disagree.
    @ 37 toons here, with toons on all other servers as well. I dual-box with my second account almost constantly, my loot luck is horrible.
    Khyber

  10. #230
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    571

    Default How do you handle the actual PL merge?

    Maybe I've missed this in all the discussion - but how would the actual PL merge be handled currently? I assume it's just :

    - whatever X lives (up to 3) - aggregated together across all toons?

    Is there any thought about 30 first life toons on an account is half the actual experience of 30 PL's on one toon?

    Can I just get all my future PL's from first lives going forward?

    If I have more than 3 of any <x> across my toons - I assume those are just wasted? Or do I get to apply them somehow to other past lives?


    I'm not really on board with shared as I've stated (but am on board with some grind reduction / new player help) - I am in the racial / heroic PL should be granted together camp, plus a possibly reduced heroic xp grind curve- both as I think it makes more sense and is easier to implement - but just curious how people even see this shared PL working in practice.

  11. #231
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    my loot luck is horrible.
    When Sharn came out I was at the right heroic level (15-17) to run them. After something like 12 quests on R1 I had exactly 1 named item. One! So I know how you feel. I am too lazy to dual box though, hence not having used my other two accounts in a long time.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  12. #232
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Whatever you call it doesn't matter. I get the point. Time YOU the person has played, you want that time to make a stable of characters "better". You want to try different builds, make different roles, or whatever, and you don't want to do it with a "weaker" character, you want all your characters (which all represent you, the player) to be as powerful as the next. I don't see how you fail to see the huge chasm that creates for new players to catch up?

    Even in your experience where the new players see this huge slog to attain "x" level of power, they still not only must climb that mountain, but now not a single vet has a toon that is not way beyond their capability to run with. You say it helps them... but how? Sure, if they ALSO want to create 32 toons, they can advance them all the same, but all 32 are still left way behind all your "suddenly uber" toons. I don't know about you, but I pull out an appropriate toon to run with newer players, and we run hard or elite or whatever and guess what? It's still fun. No reapers are popping up, champs are not one-shotting us, we complete quests, get loot, gain xp, and go run another quest. It's not grindy..
    If the point is being able to play with new players, toggles for PL benefits would do. Right now, given the massive grind wall, having a stable "competitive", if somehow behind, characters is a luxury only very established and commited players can afford. A new player who wants to play multiple characters? Pretty silly idea, unless you have a static group or don't mind soloing difficulties that aren't played in PUGs.

    Would account based progression create a bigger gulf between new and old players? It depends on a bunch of things, and it has short and long term effects as players adapt.

    To me, though, these potential adverse effects against new players do not point in the direction of needing to keep things character based. This is an unfun solution to an unfun situation. Other games have a different approach.

    • Account based things are standard in many games, since variety makes games more fun.
    • Catch up mechanisms are also very prevalent in games that have any hope of attracting new players (e.g. ESO faster xp).
    • Limited vertical progression is quite real in many far more successful games too (e.g. ESO, GW2); an endless progression system a la hamster wheel is just a cheap way to extend the game's life.
    • PVP, more interesting economies, achievements. These are alternative options to grinding for +1s in your character sheet.



    To sum it up, character limited power with endless progression and hardly any cap is a pretty unusual thing among the big MMOs. It was a cheap solution to add longevity to a game that was designed like an online lobby for a multiplayer RPG (instanced). Instead of adding MMO elements (pvp, open world, economy, guilds, houses), they added incentives to repeat play dungeons that were never designed to be repeated (static content).

    They seem to have crunched numbers and decided that new player influx due to expansions and revamps is not what will keep the game afloat. Instead, they focus on TR based systems for old players. Anything that hurts that system, even if it is the slightest (account based power sharing), is dismissed.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  13. #233
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post

    To sum it up, character limited power with endless progression and hardly any cap is a pretty unusual thing among the big MMOs. It was a cheap solution to add longevity to a game that was designed like an online lobby for a multiplayer RPG (instanced). Instead of adding MMO elements (pvp, open world, economy, guilds, houses), they added incentives to repeat play dungeons that were never designed to be repeated (static content).

    They seem to have crunched numbers and decided that new player influx due to expansions and revamps is not what will keep the game afloat. Instead, they focus on TR based systems for old players. Anything that hurts that system, even if it is the slightest (account based power sharing), is dismissed.
    This was spot on in 2015.

    Right now, its pretty clear that they could begin adding account based progression, and there is still years of grind for any single character for those who choose to play only one. Id even go as far as saying they could reverse the order of the benefits of racial reincarnation so its front loaded, and also begin adding account based progression. There will still be folks who grind for every bit of character power they can because thats how they play, and have years of grind in front of them. The rest of us can have our alts knowing we can get most of the power with ~10-12 PLs, and be at 85% of the power of a full triple completionist on any alt.

    The rest is just the recipe for slow attrition with a few spikes here and there when expansions come out. If p2w pays the bills there will always be a few usual suspects that rave about how this "succeeds" to keep them in business, right before logging their do-deca-tuple-pletionist demi-god into a ghost town and solo up some more mid skull reapers. Alone in an MMO. Most of the rest of us are taking the game system position.

    I wish they would do a classic server already.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-25-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  14. #234
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    19,207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yfernbottom View Post
    To be clear, I think the past life system is a good thing on the balance too. It keeps vets engaged, and is a unique mechanic DDO has that other MMOs don't.

    I just think it should be easier for a new player or an alt to do the few lives it takes to get up to par for one class role. Letting the first five or ten lives be quicker and/ or front loading lives more would help with this.
    Yep.

    Make the first 10 lives only cost 1.9 million.

    Helps alts and new players. Doesn't change anything for vet main characters.

    Swap racial benefits around so racial AP is given first.

    There we go, done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  15. #235
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This was spot on in 2015.

    Right now, its pretty clear that they could begin adding account based progression, and there is still years of grind for any single character for those who choose to play only one. Id even go as far as saying they could reverse the order of the benefits of racial reincarnation so its front loaded, and also begin adding account based progression. There will still be folks who grind for every bit of character power they can because thats how they play, and have years of grind in front of them. The rest of us can have our alts knowing we can get most of the power with ~10-12 PLs, and be at 85% of the power of a full triple completionist on any alt.

    The rest is just the recipe for slow attrition with a few spikes here and there when expansions come out. If p2w pays the bills there will always be a few usual suspects that rave about how this "succeeds" to keep them in business, right before logging their do-deca-tuple-pletionist demi-god into a ghost town and solo up some more mid skull reapers. Alone in an MMO. Most of the rest of us are taking the game system position.

    I wish they would do a classic server already.
    Do not get me wrong, I agree on the fun side. I also agree that ddo went from front loading PLs grinds to progressively back loading them or adding almost infinite progression (reaper points).

    I was a min maxer, I was a loud voice complaining when some class was a bit behind, and what not. Yet, I was happy not having all the PLs. And many of my type (and far more successful than me) were happy with fewer PLs.

    Many builds didn’t really benefit from hordes of Pls, completionist was a joke, and so on. Obviously this started to change with ePLs, and got far worse with racial PLs and reaper points. That is when I quit, when I realized that character progression had become a game of doing heroic TRs for racial points and reaper points (back then it was understood that heroic trs were by far the best way to acquire reaper points and more generally durable character power).

    Where we disagree is on whether Moving to account based systems is the best financial move for SSG give their current business model. I don’t think it is, simply because I think that the current path the game has taken is probably a calculated business decision. They have far more tools at their disposal to crunch the numbers than we do to armchair theorize. Is this the only profitable model more generally? Would it be possible to design the game systems focusing on lower ceiling grinds, and account based progression? Maybe, but not according to the current path they have chosen for the game. Other things would likely have to change for it to become a good idea. They are unwilling, as we stand, to move in that other direction. They have explicitly rejected account based progression, I am told.

    So, I would vote for your option (I have, with my wallet). But I am not optimistic, and if I start playing again it won’t be because I expect them to deliver anything but the current grindy alt and new player unfriendly model.
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  16. #236
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Do not get me wrong, I agree on the fun side. I also agree that ddo went from front loading PLs grinds to progressively back loading them or adding almost infinite progression (reaper points).

    I was a min maxer, I was a loud voice complaining when some class was a bit behind, and what not. Yet, I was happy not having all the PLs. And many of my type (and far more successful than me) were happy with fewer PLs.

    Many builds didn’t really benefit from hordes of Pls, completionist was a joke, and so on. Obviously this started to change with ePLs, and got far worse with racial PLs and reaper points. That is when I quit, when I realized that character progression had become a game of doing heroic TRs for racial points and reaper points (back then it was understood that heroic trs were by far the best way to acquire reaper points and more generally durable character power).

    Where we disagree is on whether Moving to account based systems is the best financial move for SSG give their current business model. I don’t think it is, simply because I think that the current path the game has taken is probably a calculated business decision. They have far more tools at their disposal to crunch the numbers than we do to armchair theorize. Is this the only profitable model more generally? Would it be possible to design the game systems focusing on lower ceiling grinds, and account based progression? Maybe, but not according to the current path they have chosen for the game. Other things would likely have to change for it to become a good idea. They are unwilling, as we stand, to move in that other direction. They have explicitly rejected account based progression, I am told.

    So, I would vote for your option (I have, with my wallet). But I am not optimistic, and if I start playing again it won’t be because I expect them to deliver anything but the current grindy alt and new player unfriendly model.
    I agree.

    There still are a *very* few builds left which do not lean heavily on PLs of any kind, but many of those which used to exist dropped out of the meta some time ago.

  17. #237
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    472

    Default

    @Chai

    I agree that I like the idea of a "classic" server... I just ask myself where to slice the pie, y'know?

    Do we cut back to old epics with 20 as the cap, but no EDs? Do we cut right after EDs? Do we cut back to right after level 30?

    However it were cut, I'd say adjusting the newer content to be in line with the "classic" content would be good for this too, just a lot of work.

  18. #238
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I agree.

    There still are a *very* few builds left which do not lean heavily on PLs of any kind, but many of those which used to exist dropped out of the meta some time ago.
    That's their worst freaking nightmare:

    A player with a bunch of alts that do not reincarnate nor change build frequently and are cycled through legendary raids and end game quests without buying bypasses or shard rerolls.

    Most of the design decisions over the years seem to be aimed at obliterating that playstyle; even though it was viable in the past and a large fraction of the population enjoyed it.

    • Don't get attached to a class or playstyle (chase the meta): it might suck for years (EDs, PREs, races, etc.).
    • PLs, like diamonds, are forever (gear is made obsolete far too frequently): how long did heroic GS last in relevance? Compare it to legendary GS.
    • TRing is the true end game (end game raids and quests are made obsolete by the update): hour per hour, character progression offers vastly more generous rewards in the TR train; they also systematically destroyed any semblance of end game by vertical leaps in gear that made legendary content obsolete far too soon to build a decently diverse end game


    All according to the grand plan of the old ones...
    Quote Originally Posted by retrojet View Post
    Why are there entire pure classes still that are completely unusable [...]. Why are there entire trees that no one will ever invest in? Why are there entire destinies that no one will ever play in? Why aren't these questions even on the developer radar screen?

  19. #239
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    That's their worst freaking nightmare:

    A player with a bunch of alts that do not reincarnate nor change build frequently and are cycled through legendary raids and end game quests without buying bypasses or shard rerolls.

    Most of the design decisions over the years seem to be aimed at obliterating that playstyle; even though it was viable in the past and a large fraction of the population enjoyed it.

    • Don't get attached to a class or playstyle (chase the meta): it might suck for years (EDs, PREs, races, etc.).
    • PLs, like diamonds, are forever (gear is made obsolete far too frequently): how long did heroic GS last in relevance? Compare it to legendary GS.
    • TRing is the true end game (end game raids and quests are made obsolete by the update): hour per hour, character progression offers vastly more generous rewards in the TR train; they also systematically destroyed any semblance of end game by vertical leaps in gear that made legendary content obsolete far too soon to build a decently diverse end game


    All according to the grand plan of the old ones...
    I think thats why most of our crew left. We're playing through the same levels so we can get back to waterworks and it can be slightly easier on the same setting than it was last time, which was slightly easier than it was the time before that etc.

    If thats the end game, they should just drop 50K XP stones as raid loot.

  20. #240
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    @Chai

    I agree that I like the idea of a "classic" server... I just ask myself where to slice the pie, y'know?

    Do we cut back to old epics with 20 as the cap, but no EDs? Do we cut right after EDs? Do we cut back to right after level 30?

    However it were cut, I'd say adjusting the newer content to be in line with the "classic" content would be good for this too, just a lot of work.
    Id cut it at 2011. The newer content all has heroic versions so its not a wasted investment. The issue is not with the content itself, but the loot which is better than endgame level 20 stuff in that era.

Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 289101112131415 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload