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  1. #81
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Some interesting new ideas here. I kinda like the premise of this feat tetris as long as it doesn't turn into another huge paywalled thingy on top of the pay2skip thingies.

    In vacuum the grinds are colossal now if one starts from 0. Somewhat less with overlapping, generally reaper exp overlaps with past life goals as long as any of the reincarnation is utilized, it is worst at level cap because even with the extra rxp the overall progress is less.

    If only devs considered front loading the benefits of each pls, instead of equal per tier or worse backloaded like in case of race pls.

    So an "end-of-grind" build, would look like this,

    • Class completionist
    • Class feats of [FOCUS]
    • Race Stats of [FOCUS]
    • Max Race APs
    • Epic completionist
    • Epic max stack of [FOCUS]
    • Reaper major 1 tree capstoned
    • Reaper minor, usually the 130hp from defense cores or extra boosts or spell points


    and these benefits would be front loaded as much as possible

    This is still a massive grind from the start but much less with some tweaks, those players who dont need every PL, just want to be the best insert class doing insert role, could work out their characters with 1/3. Much more player friendly while it wont affect business for the one character supertoon ~hazitall players

  2. #82
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    there's no class that requires that, but tanking and DC casting both benefit enormously from some past lives.
    That is quite true.

    Their are plenty of posts on what you need to have to be any end game build on these forums. I have not seen a single one that requires all the past lives to be viable.

    It seems to me that most people are willing to pay for just about anything for their alt's except the time it requires according to them that it takes to make them viable in end game content

    Everyone should really figure out what they 'need' vs 'want' and their 'grind' would suddenly become considerably less.
    Main 100+ Lives ( 42/42 HTR - 15/21 ITR - 36/36 ETR - 12/14 RAP - 30/36 RTR - 83/154 ), Jynxer - Completionist ( 22/42 HTR - 7/21 ITR - 12/36 ETR - 2/14 RAP - 1/36 RTR - 36/154 ), SoulDuster - Completionist ( 15x HTR 3x ETR 20/154 ) BlakReign - 1st Life Reaper https://ibb.co/album/k1hMqa https://ibb.co/album/g0yuAa https://ibb.co/album/bXjCWF

  3. #83
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    First off, thank you for all that you do in helping us newbies. Vets like you both in-game and here on the forum have been the reason I am still playing. But please be careful not to lump all of us newbs into one bin. I'd like to think that I'm one of the new players that does take advice and tries to learn the game. My countless posts on this forum over the past 11 months would probably attest to that. The learning curve is massive, and the game does very little to help you along, so this forum, wiki, etc. and vets like you are absolutely vital in order for us to learn this game.

    I am still on my first ever toon. I've never reincarnated. While I don't think that I am as gimped as some might believe, the power gap is real and it is large, and I don't support anything that would make the gap larger. For example, the exclusivity of minor artifacts to LE+ and raid capable players was a big mistake that was thankfully quickly fixed. If shared PL and reaper xp lead to even more powerful toons, which then leads to even more difficult content, this is not conducive to retaining new players who haven't even close to the amount of time needed to catch up (most of us, I would guess). When new content is scaled for the latest power creep that is not attainable from loot alone, especially non-reaper content (hello LE Amber temple), the new player is pushed further and further away from enjoying the game with others. No one wants to join a group and feel completely useless, reduced to an innocent bystander. It's not fun.
    I always lump them in the same group until they stand out and earn their stripes.

    Excellent observation ' learn the game ' past lives don't do anything for you when you don't know what to do.

    The biggest power gap in this game is play time and experience not past lives. I've seen plenty of otto box toons that have no business on their respective builds that have trouble in any content let alone reaper.

    I can't speak to minor artifacts being LE gated that seems pretty exclusive if it is true and does not make sense to me at all as well.

    Of course if all past lives and reaper xp are shared it would lead to more powerful toons. I have a single tripled out pretty much all the way now your going to give me 40+ maxxed out characters to play with come on now how would that not lead to more challenging content needing to be released. How could that not lead to raids and adventure packs being made obsolete in days vs weeks, weeks vs months, months vs years, there will always be a better player than me or you in group plain and simple. I am happy to step back and let someone else take the lead in content they are better at than me. However I do watch what they do and try learn what I can from them so that I can take lead in a group without them.

    We were all new players at one time however I think a lot of people forget that. Been in plenty of dungeons and was like where do I go what do I do. 15 mobs come and kill me. No one came back and picked me up either. I pulled up my pants and kept learning so that would happen less and less.


    Duo and solo all the time with guildie standard practice is post and go.

    Example reaper 5 mines run. First life bard joins group I don't check who list nothing just post and go I did not need joiners to run the content anyway joiners should only allow me to perhaps increase the skull level I am running. Now don't get me wrong I did send my guildie a tell 'bet you the bard dies 5x before end fight' guildie 'lolz' by third encounter and bard is contributing to group buffs, DPS, and has not even come close to death once. 2nd tell 'hmm seems pretty capable and knows when to back up as needed' guildie 'indeed'. By end boss I am quite impressed and happy to have the bard along. Checks xp report bard has some kills, no big deal to me the thing that matters the most to me is the bard has not died a single time not once as a first lifer in R5 content. Even at boss fight bard exceeds my expectations and does not die a single time. 3rd tell 'quite impressed with the bard shall we kick to R6' guildie 'sure he seems fine' First tell - to the bard - 'you have a solid build you good with R6?' At chain completion pushing R7 thank you all take care.

    tell to bard 'added you to list ding my lfm anytime'
    bard to me 'tyvm good group'

    Funny thing is I never once had to tell the bard what to do to contribute to the group at all. They already knew what to do.
    Main 100+ Lives ( 42/42 HTR - 15/21 ITR - 36/36 ETR - 12/14 RAP - 30/36 RTR - 83/154 ), Jynxer - Completionist ( 22/42 HTR - 7/21 ITR - 12/36 ETR - 2/14 RAP - 1/36 RTR - 36/154 ), SoulDuster - Completionist ( 15x HTR 3x ETR 20/154 ) BlakReign - 1st Life Reaper https://ibb.co/album/k1hMqa https://ibb.co/album/g0yuAa https://ibb.co/album/bXjCWF

  4. #84
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I understand why some want to "have everything" when it comes to past lives as this is generally seen in the "power-game" mentality. But this generally shortens the life of a game as now the player has "powered" past that difficulty.

    I like math, I'm one of those people that does math puzzles for fun (and no I've not solved Riemann's Hypothesis). But I've been looking at the math of this.

    Some problems I see...

    1. There is an assumption that a very large percentage of players has nearly all past lives collected - (Maybe on a single character, or even over multiple characters)
    If this assumption is true, then over night that population suddenly becomes a population that has every past life and maxed on each system for all of their characters.

    Now, for players that only play one character at this time there will not be a benefit until they actually create another character, which will have all the bells and whistles sans gear (assuming all gear is also not duplicated to each character as I imagine that would cause an inventory nightmare for some people). But for players that have been playing alternate characters (You know those of us people call delusional) will have this power right away on multiple characters with the possibility of characters already being a Max level.

    2. The assumption that this would bridge the gap between a new player and one that has played long enough to earn past lives/Rxp. Math has always shown that you can double Zero as many times as you want and it is still Zero. Or you can half something as many times as you want and there is still a distance (infinite)

    3. That having past lives is needed.
    Some bring out DC casters and Tanks as an example. But what I've found is that PL's power is in the build flexibility. This is something I've learned from rolling up first life characters to help people, or in playing with a static group using G.I.M.P. rules with first life characters. Much like a first life trapper, much of the power needed to contribute comes from gear and learning what works best/where to stand.

    What is humorous to me is that some of the people who are looking at the "gap" don't realize is this "gap" was actually a result of the decision they made to play only one character. So they have actually created this problem for themselves, possibly because they didn't think DDO would hold their interest for as long as it has.

    This leaves just one other question, if you have everything, what is there left to achieve?

  5. #85
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    A new player may evaluate the time to "catch up", last time we tried we could not get people into DDO due to the massive catch up time. They were not interested in some years to get halfway where we are, and that was 4 years ago. There is really just too much involved to get players enjoy a party with highly developed characters, not to mention the meta skill gap on top .

    Anyway, not really expecting any changes or even sympathy, I know for sure that some players are going to grind for every +1 that stacks.

  6. #86
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Default we need an account based DDO!

    Yes, we need the account based character progression.

    This is simply a logical design step, DDO should cover as many as possible types of players and therefore players who want to play different characters (aka alts) and those who play only one character (aka mains).
    For this DDO needs to provide enough to do for both types of play styles!
    But also not too much to do for one of them!

    Therefore the developers should add enough so-called grind to keep players busy who focus on only one character and who is not interested in playing another one.
    But this would normally include that players who currently spread there efforts across several characters fall way behind those who focus on one character.
    The result is eventually a demotivation of alt players and a big barrier that makes it harder for all players to play together with main character players.

    With account based progression is meant that characters have the same long term progression, this means past lives and reaper APs (and crafting levels).
    It is, of course, intended that it still needs to actually play DDO to get each past life and for each reaper AP.
    There is no past life "for free".
    To benefit from this new system with an alt it still actually need to play your alt an additional time from 1-30.
    (and of course, on an account with two or more past lives this demands 100% more experience on EACH new alt than on a fresh account)
    It still needs to buy item space, tomes, etc. for your alts.
    You need to equip your alts, which is even with BTA items still a big task.

    For the revenue of SSG, this is, of course, risk and I dont know how risky this is because I have of course no insight in the numbers.
    On the very first glance, so-called whales might buy less Otto's Boxes for there alts but not only such players fund DDO.
    The biggest potential for revenue comes from the mainstream market.
    And this change is mainly made for a normal player and such players have with this a real incentive to buy things for all there characters and start more new characters.
    The mainstream player has with this a stronger incitive to buy things like Otto's boxes and experience pots because the value of such buys is bigger then.
    And last but not least it sends also a clear positive message that DDO is made for the players because of this is another step towards a DDO that is focused on the player!
    Therefore I even see the potential for noticeable more revenue from such a change at the very end!

    And yes this is not a help for new DDO players, such players need another kind of help, my idea for this is a "DDO-keep-up-bundle" that includes a good part of the older DDO content plus enough account progression to NOT make new players feel it is hopeless to ever keep up with veteran players.
    Last edited by Chacka_DDO; 06-09-2019 at 10:13 AM.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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  7. #87
    Community Member Sinetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    This is such a terrible argument and I've seen it thousands of times in the past. If you can do this one small thing then you don't need to be any more powerful, which is just patently absurd. Sure, you can eventually eat an entire meal with a toothpick, but that doesn't make a toothpick a viable eating utensil. Your friends are going to be finished with the meal and off to the show while you're still dabbing away at the soup course.

    In DDO the power gap between a first life toon and a toon with 1,000 hours of grinding is so enormous that at that point they are not even playing the same game, nor can they even try to play together. The more powerful character could certainly carry the new character through content, but following someone through the empty halls of a dungeon after they kill everything is hardly rewarding or engaging, and certainly couldn't be considered "playing". The more powerful character could accompany the new character in content suitable for the new character and act as a safety net, but anyone who finds that fun has a very different definition of fun than I.

    There's the problem in a nutshell. It's not that there isn't anything for first life characters to do, it's that the gap created by difference in power between a new character and one with 10 years of grinding is absolutely insurmountable.

    Turblind and Standing Still Games cater to the players who don't want more challenge, but instead want more demanding content that they can faceroll with brute force afforded by endless grinding. This allows players to pretend they are actually doing something because they can do something most people can not, unless they too devote thousands and thousands of hours repetitively grinding easy content.

    The only answer has been widely known for many years, reduce the gap. It's obvious, and you can believe Standing Still is very aware of it, but Turblind and Standing Still have been doubling down on the grind with every new release. They have no intention what so ever of reducing the gap in any way. In fact, there is no reason to believe they won't continue to widen the gap with an ever increasing amount of grind.
    My Inquisitive with four past lives out DPS's most pugs I meet as is. My DC caster with nine Past Lives is better than 95% of DC casters I meet in pugs. PLs don't = good. Sure if my caster had 300 hp that would be cool, but it isn't necessary to eat my entire meal before the rest of the triple everything do. I keep up just fine and in most cases finish first anyways. Past Lives really are there as a buffer. Not required, but not completely worthless. My Main who is completionist on most lives isn't way more powerful than any of my other toons who all have less than ten. You saying there is a huge power gap isn't true unless the player with all the lives isn't very skilled to begin with.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    Account based wouldn't add 1 bit of power creep, it's already there and people have it. It's just denied to other people who don't want to only play one character.

    totally agree that the power creep is insane, but past lives are not the worst offender (I guess reaper is in this discussion too and is a big offender) and account based would be zero power creep.
    Anything that adds to characters who don’t work for it is MONTY Haul level power creep


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  9. #89
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    Heroic past lives, whilst not essential, can make a character more viable especially in higher level content. Surely the simplest way to do this is to reduce the amount of xp required (or the multiplier) for the first 9-10 levels rather than the 2 that we currently get. Characters would still need to level 1-20 and so nothing is given away.

    This way a mage could take 3 wizard PL, 3 Sorc PL, 2 Gnome PL and 2 Drow PL - the character is now far more viable in epic content and the devs should not need to make massive changes to the background programming.

  10. #90
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedip View Post
    Heroic past lives, whilst not essential, can make a character more viable especially in higher level content. Surely the simplest way to do this is to reduce the amount of xp required (or the multiplier) for the first 9-10 levels rather than the 2 that we currently get. Characters would still need to level 1-20 and so nothing is given away.

    This way a mage could take 3 wizard PL, 3 Sorc PL, 2 Gnome PL and 2 Drow PL - the character is now far more viable in epic content and the devs should not need to make massive changes to the background programming.
    This is a great idea imo. First five lives are the current first life XP curve. 6-10 is second life curve. Anything past 10 is current third life curve.

    There are no builds that I can’t think of that absolutely require more than 10 PLs to be end game viable with a little build planning.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    This is a great idea imo. First five lives are the current first life XP curve. 6-10 is second life curve. Anything past 10 is current third life curve.

    There are no builds that I can’t think of that absolutely require more than 10 PLs to be end game viable with a little build planning.
    Or just combine heroic and racial lives as many have suggested. No big changes, alts will be in a better place, newbies will , and power gamers are already done with all of it anyway.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisTOTG View Post
    I don't really want to start another character with 0 past lives, 0 tomes, 0 destinies, 0 anything. But I'd like to have a character I could raid with while TRing my main.

    The only design-type problem I have with this game is how unfriendly it is to alts. There are currently a total of 147 past life feats in game (including the new 4x3=12 epic past lives):

    * Heroic, 14x3=42
    * racial, 12x3=36
    * iconic, 7x3=21
    * epic 16x3=48


    Total: 147


    Now you don't need to have 147 past lives just to play, but I sure wish creating alts had more incentive. I'd be quite happy to pay for supreme +8, XP tomes, bags and bank slots for an alt that shared the dozen or so past lives I have on my main... but it took me a year to get those PLs and I'm just not going to start a second character with nothing.
    I have dozens of characters and multiple accounts. Who said you cant raid AND be effective with first life characters? With itemization now you can build almost anything and be succeed.

  13. #93
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Anything that adds to characters who don’t work for it is MONTY Haul level power creep
    Not anything.., but past life feats as freebies would be. The power creep is done here, it is just placed behind a multi year grind wall which separates starters from vet players, far beyond any sensible design would do.

    I would not suggest adding freebies, but I would suggest to revisit the whole system to be more front loaded, that is:

    ~3/2/1 per stack instead of 2/2/2 (class, epic) or 1/2/3 (racial).

    Reaper points however makes absolutely no sense to be attached on a character, I know I am just repeating myself, maybe it finally sticks, reaper is 100% meta game, it has nothing to do with immersion, lore, fairness, balance, Dungeons and Dragons or your character, it is purely a 4th wall breaker game mode where you try to maximize challenge to feel better as a player, you are making decisions no role played character would do to beat content multiple times.

    Reaper is all about the guys sitting in front of the monitors, mashing keys and using bonker tactics to confuse node pathing and sloppy AI.

    It makes full good sense and design principle to detach reaper progression from the character, then add it on the account for the player to tetris into each character as they see fit.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Anything that adds to characters who don’t work for it is MONTY Haul level power creep
    But the players themselves already worked for it. It's not free. It's not power creep; it's equalizing the power between a main and alts. There's no advance of top level power there, which is what power creep is.

    Saying some people can have something but others can't because "power creep" is nonsensical.
    A little snark, no vitriol.
    (with credit to HungarianRhapsody)


    Graceana, assassin ~ Xiya, tempest ~ Shinshi, shintao ~ Ayaxi, thief-acrobat ~ Saravi, cleric ~ Sanziana, arcane archer ~ Kyudojin, mechanic
    Talvi, caster druid ~ Zinzie, sorc ~ Kishori, spellsinger ~ Faunia, wolf druid ~ Viven, warchanter ~ Jianqiao, ninja spy
    Cliodna, wizard ~ Serenwyn, swashbuckler ~ Duisteri, shuribuild ~ Mahuika, warlock ~ Narabali, tank ~ Tabbithah, artificer
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedip View Post
    Heroic past lives, whilst not essential, can make a character more viable especially in higher level content. Surely the simplest way to do this is to reduce the amount of xp required (or the multiplier) for the first 9-10 levels rather than the 2 that we currently get. Characters would still need to level 1-20 and so nothing is given away.

    This way a mage could take 3 wizard PL, 3 Sorc PL, 2 Gnome PL and 2 Drow PL - the character is now far more viable in epic content and the devs should not need to make massive changes to the background programming.
    This has been suggested before too, my suggestion on it was something like 2% increased EXP multiplier per past life feat. That would make the total grind about the same while making the first lives much much faster.

    The fact that 3rd life takes as much exp as 140+ is crazy, those characters are not even playing the same game.
    Last edited by Cantor; 06-10-2019 at 08:47 AM.

  16. #96
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    But the players themselves already worked for it. It's not free. It's not power creep; it's equalizing the power between a main and alts.
    And further distancing everyone from new players. Win-Lose, which leads to Lose-Lose. We need a different solution, seriously.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    And further distancing everyone from new players. Win-Lose, which leads to Lose-Lose. We need a different solution, seriously.
    Instead of constantly saying that, go ahead and provide some real concrete solutions you think are better instead of spamming all these threads with vague naysaying. Besides, there is already a huge gap. Vets with alts already are ahead of new players by virtue of game knowledge.
    A little snark, no vitriol.
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    Graceana, assassin ~ Xiya, tempest ~ Shinshi, shintao ~ Ayaxi, thief-acrobat ~ Saravi, cleric ~ Sanziana, arcane archer ~ Kyudojin, mechanic
    Talvi, caster druid ~ Zinzie, sorc ~ Kishori, spellsinger ~ Faunia, wolf druid ~ Viven, warchanter ~ Jianqiao, ninja spy
    Cliodna, wizard ~ Serenwyn, swashbuckler ~ Duisteri, shuribuild ~ Mahuika, warlock ~ Narabali, tank ~ Tabbithah, artificer
    The Casual Obsession
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  18. #98
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    Instead of constantly saying that, go ahead and provide some real concrete solutions you think are better instead of spamming all these threads with vague naysaying.
    I have, and you either have seen them and choose to ignore them, or more likely, are so stuck on this one thing that you read but don't process.

    Besides the fact that you essentially admitted you have not even experienced any significant "grind", yet you are one of the loudest voices complaining about the grind.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    Besides, there is already a huge gap. Vets with alts already are ahead of new players by virtue of game knowledge.
    LOL @" virtue of knowledge".

    That gap exists between all players. Casuals vs plays-non-stop, experienced but non-repaerer/raiders vs vets that raid or play high skulls, min-maxers vs flavor builds, flower sniffers vs zergers, etc. Not just new vs vets.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Besides the fact that you essentially admitted you have not even experienced any significant "grind", yet you are one of the loudest voices complaining about the grind.
    What are you talking about. I never said anything of the sort. I said the opposite.

    I'm just done responding to anything you post, except to point out when you have once again misrepresented or made up something I have said.
    A little snark, no vitriol.
    (with credit to HungarianRhapsody)


    Graceana, assassin ~ Xiya, tempest ~ Shinshi, shintao ~ Ayaxi, thief-acrobat ~ Saravi, cleric ~ Sanziana, arcane archer ~ Kyudojin, mechanic
    Talvi, caster druid ~ Zinzie, sorc ~ Kishori, spellsinger ~ Faunia, wolf druid ~ Viven, warchanter ~ Jianqiao, ninja spy
    Cliodna, wizard ~ Serenwyn, swashbuckler ~ Duisteri, shuribuild ~ Mahuika, warlock ~ Narabali, tank ~ Tabbithah, artificer
    The Casual Obsession
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  20. #100
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    What are you talking about. I never said anything of the sort. I said the opposite.

    I'm just done responding to anything you post, except to point out when you have once again misrepresented or made up something I have said.
    I'm talking about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I do just fine with a main that has 19 heroic, 10 epic, 6 iconic, and 4 racial lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    My main, in fact, has less than that.
    I listed that my main has less than 40 past lives of any kind. You said your main has less than that.

    There are 14 classes, 12 races, 12 Epic Past Lives, and 7 iconic. You can go triple on all of them. That's 45 x 3 = 135 possible. I have less than 40 of those possible. What I have done is not considered a grind by many, and you state that you have even less. So without even being 1/3 of the way through the possible past lives you are complaining about the grind? That seems to be a very low tolerance, and makes me think you are burning out on the game, and will burn out even if they do what you request with sharing past lives.
    My take on "the grind": https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6220972

    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

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