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  1. #141
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    Consider rebalancing some costs in Draconic, and removing some pre-reqs. Energy Burst costs 9 DP to get and, frankly, is not at all optional. Getting Breath ups that 12. Not much spread to explore some of the more flavorful options in the tree. There are 35 DP worth of other abilities (not counting stat boosts, which up it to 47). Dropping Energy Sheathe/Go Out With a Bang/Energy Burst to 1 rank each for 2 DP would help a little, but overall this tree is 50% on rails for everybody right now which I see as a problem. Putting design work into other abilities is almost a waste of time because of it.

    Worst offender in tree: Barrier of Scales. 3 DP (6 DP if you include its pre-req) for 120 points of stoneskin on a 2 minute CD. It's beyond awful. Its benefit is on par with warlock Brilliance, except the latter is free every 2 seconds. New bard temp hp aura is in this ballpark too, free every 10 seconds. Far worse than Shining Through. This should be 1 rank for 1 DP and either have its cooldown reduced to 10 seconds at most, or (because that would be an annoying clickfest) either make your "scales" heal themselves every 10 seconds like an aura, or have its magnitude greatly increased and remain a clicky.

  2. #142
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    I'd also like to say that I'm against all the +DCs being added to Magister. It just pushes the spread between destinies way too much. Primal Avatar is straight up non-viable for casters in comparison. So is Divine Crusader. So is Fatesinger (for spellsingers). Shiradi... tougher call for certain builds but this has hardly been in vogue for a while.

    Mob saves will inevitably go up so that Magisters with +16 DC virtually every encounter aren't straight no-fail on everything. The devs say they're trying to make destinies more general, but this is doing the opposite. DCs are important even for nuking. Destinies that were so-so for casters before are falling even further out of grace. Crusader in particular gets reduced to just a t3 twist for casters.

    I think it's fine to have +3 to all DCs in the cores (not +6).
    I think it's fine to have twistable +3 to a specific school in t2.
    I think it's fine to put +1 DC in the third rank of Master (t5) (not +3)
    I think it's fine to also put +1 DC in the third rank of Augmentation (t3), because Augmentation is kinda lousy anyway*
    I think Arcane Spellsurge should be reduced to +2 DC. Especially at 33% uptime.

    *Alternative suggestions include making Augmentation easier to use (debuff to all saves, instead of only reflex, etc) with a higher proc %. Make Magisters do some work for their increased DCs by softening up their opponents first, instead of pushing towards more "1 cast 1 kill" standing DC inflation. This may also require adding appropriate SLA(s) to this tree that match your specialization. If you focus Necro for instance, you don't have a lot of heroic-gained options to try and trigger Augmentation with.


    Other stuff in the tree:
    Variable Resistance is still terrible. At least make it % absorb. Resist has negative synergy with MRR and small quantities of it are unnoticeable.

    Sigils take too long to cast, have too small a radius, and don't last long enough (especially the spellpower one). Limiting your mobility like this is often suicide.

    The dispel on Nullmagic stuff - does it have a DC similar to the Dispel Magic spells? Not optimistic it could ever work if so.

    Arcane Adept needs to stack with gear.

    The summons need (much) more survivability.

  3. #143
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    Still waiting to hear why the proposed additional +3DC to a specific school via Master is at all justified on top of the +5 from the core. If committed DC casters who actually put in all the effort to get their DC's up we're still not able to be effective then this change could make sense. However, the fact is that this is entirely NOT the case. Committed DC casters are already reaching DC's high enough to be very effective in just about any of the hardest content currently in game... including Sharn R10's. So, then, this proposal would really just trivialize DC's and it is very suspicious in terms of actual intent.

    In relation to current number game dynamics gaining 11DC's from a single ED tree sounds so crazy because it is. The new +5DC's from the core, let alone the proposed changes to Spellsurge, already is a huge increase and will allow a dedicated DC caster to essentially have DC's high enough to basically be a generalist DC caster. A dedicated DC caster could hardly ask for anything more...so then why the additional +3 from the same school as specialist?

    What is the honest reason for this proposal? It seems clear that this additional +3 on top of the +5 is NOT actually directed towards dedicated DC casters as is being suggested. So then why? So far a coherent reason has not been provided... perhaps the desire is to create a cheesy variety of easy buttons to quickly and trivially attain high DC's. This proposal would achieve that. However, in so doing, a sensitivity to proportion in terms of current number dynamics is basically being entirely thrown out the window.

  4. #144
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    Default Revised opinion

    I find myself being persuaded by the arguments against big DC increases for a single ED; and more specifically, I like the idea of removing must-have choices and making other destinies appealing, and making all destinies fun.

    I also very much like the change, made ages ago, that added different levels of Melee Power to all different cores.

    So here's my revised take:

    • every destiny gets +1 DC for every two cores (yes, every destiny, even Legendary Dreadnaught)
    • magister gets +1 DC every other core as well (for +6 in total)
    • magister loses the school-specifc bonus at T2, to be replaced by a universal spell-power boost (50/100/150)
    • arcane spellsurge goes to 120 second cooldown (ie. not usable EVERY encounter), but also adds a 50% reduction in spell cooldowns, and lasts 30 seconds.
    • all dependencies between items in magister & draconic tree items to be removed
    • draconic gain +1 evo/conj every other core (for +3 all, and a further +3 evo/conj)
    • fatesinger gain evo/ench every other core (for +3 all, and a further +3 evo/ench)
    • all stat increases in main trees are removed and replaced by +1 ANY stat in each core. This is good for all classes.


    In the same way Melee power is granted, so is spell power. Note that most casters will have 500-100 spell power at cap, whereas melees (I guess) have nearer 200. So SP grants should be 3-5 times higher to provide the same boost.

    Draconic: +10 per core
    Magister: +20 per core
    Fatesinger: +30 per core
    Exalted Angel: +10 per core
    Shiradi: +10 per core
    Div. Crus: +20 per core
    Everyone else: +30 per core

    Not sure about 10/20/30; 15/30/45 and 20/40/60 also seem reasonable. eg. consider Shadowdancer: +10 melee power per core. +60 in total. That's an increase of 30% for someone starting with 180 melee power. Going the same way with spell power, would be to add 50 per core for a semi-decent caster on an off-destiny; but this is offset by adding DCs to every second core, so 10/20/30 may be about right.
    Last edited by pjw; 06-06-2019 at 08:46 PM.

  5. #145
    Community Member Varr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    You are partially correct, and some builds may opt for less INT, however INT is also skill points, spell points, and helps with a number of abilities that dont work with spell focus or dc boosts, a basic one is the Knock spell. So in short the utility of stat increases reach beyond spell DCs.

    The greater reason for Magister builds buying all stats points was the undesirable T6 row, may change with this pass.

    Magister is not just for Wizards but all arcanes, Sorcerers willing to give up self sufficiency from EA will gain a massive boost to their power too, my Sorcerer dont want to be in EA, he wants to be in Magister, but the self sustain from EA combined with easy spell DC buffs is just more playable (since Sorcerer defenses from build are pathetic). Magister adds spell pen, spell levels, and now it looks like DCs on top.
    As a pimped 18/2 Sun Elf Lich/Monk...….with Insightful reflexes and harper enhancements for to hit and damage...…...I Hear ya, more Int is MORRREEEE.

    But I already only speck in 4 of the 6 int boosts and can see that falling to 0 with this change. I have all the PLs and toys......and have spread out with a couple monk levels to punch for fun between mass holds and instakilling. Even have AA for pew pew fun when I desire to be totally pathetic. This broadening of Magister ED points use's though fits my do it all with flare approach.

    Like the idea of being able to speck in tempest as an example.
    Varr's all over. Cannith Varr getting the love currently.

  6. #146
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Fearsome Invulnerability promises too much.

    2 drow champs insta shot me for approx ~2x700 physical damage and some champion damage procs, at 1100 hitpoints, in this case FI would have made no difference at all, I would still die from their attacks. In case I had 25% damage reduction, same as force field, I could have made it far enough to attempt to CC them.

    This doesn't happen every day, but these are the areas next time I would buff me with defenses, if it can make any difference.

  7. #147
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    Great changes so far, still no arcane sphere with melee power added? (fatesinger doesn't seem to be of a great synergy with INT based melee casters)

    So, in your opinion, with the new changes, will builds like melee artificer, eldritch knight and such be better off staying shadowdancer / dreadnought or is there anything more yummy for them now back in the arcane sphere...?

  8. #148
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    Maybe it's an absurd idea, but would it be possible to put the sigils in the core? I know it is a matter of choice to distribute the 24 points in the tree, but I think that the sigils are underutilized as an option in the tiers. It would be a viable and versatile option to help party, since only one sigil remains active at a time.

  9. #149
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    Just learned that Exalted Angel gives extra +4 DC for free from cores.

    Thats why most casters run in this destiny. Maybe fix this? I advise lower +3 DC in core to +1. Imho +3 DC from 1 core in unreasonable.

  10. #150
    Community Member Avocado's Avatar
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    Default Why so much dc increase?

    Pray do tell why you think casters need an even larger boost to dcs? Is 135 necro dc not enough? Thats 20 points higher than the best assassin. Please dont add this much dc. Casters dont need it. They dont, they just dont. Focus on the trash that is magister's support abilities. The sigils are bad, increase the numbers on what they do, like 50 energy resist per tier instead of whatver it is now. I think this would give nice support utility for places where dcs casters cant use hold or fod or dance.

    The reason to run in this or exalted angel is still barely worth it for most as the school specialty can be twisted for cheap. Leave it at +3. Do you really want people being able to twist +6 necro dc and run in EA for a total +9 dc. Better yet, just remove +3 all dcs in EA and replace it with +3 evocation only.
    Last edited by Avocado; 06-07-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  11. #151
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    Angry Shadow dragon choice for Draconic Incarnation

    There is absolutely no support for Negative Energy nukers in Epic Destinies.

    This could be fixed either by adding a Negative Energy choice to the Exalted Angel or by adding a Negative Energy choice to Draconic Incarnation.

    Draconic Incarnation could get a Shadow Dragon choice that would have Negative Energy damage and be typed as a Necromancy spell.


    And I don't see what cold damage has to do with sonic damage (bonus in Tier 4 Draconic Spell Augmentation). It would make more sense for electric damage to be coupled with sonic (thunder and lightning logic), and Air Savant gets bonus for both electric and sonic so it would be in line with Heroic enhancements.

  12. #152
    Community Member Strambotica's Avatar
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    First, don’t rush the ED plz. Since probably you don’t gonna touch them for years from now.

    All Casters need DC:

    · Wizard probably need all, since can swap Spells and type of Archmage, So great changes for them.

    · Sorcerers mostly need Evocation and Conjuration, so plz add it on the cores too. Maybe core 4 gives +4 DC to Evocation and Conjuration, like in Exalted Angel.

    · Druids need Evocation, Conjuration and Necromancy. A caster Druid will never take Primal Avatar, so could add Wisdom as a stat in all caster’s ED.

    · Warlock -> depends on the Pact. But with these changes, probably all going to run in Magister for the DC. Since Fiend and Great Old Ones are usually Necromancy Focus, and Fey are Enchantment Focus. A Fiend and Great Old One could maybe take Draconic for some DPS (but a warlocks are not dps), but Fey ones don’t have any option in here. No Sonic, Light/Evil, Force spellpower. Or probably could stay in EA, since that gives 2 extra Charisma from Angelic Presence (That in my opinion, should give Wisdom too).

    · Spellsinger Bard will probably stay in EA twisting Enchantment from Magister, since gives decent DC and Charisma and helps them with heals. Since there is nothing to help with Sonic. One thing is giving pretty buffs to the party, but… don’t want to be useless. I’m Stunning with Soundburst and Shout/Greater Shout and throwing mass hold monster… but can’t do anything more. Reverberate is lame, must use Fiendish Arpeggio to help a bit… but that is from the Tiefling Scoundrel… not from the class. Soothing Song takes forever. And this is with many racial points (Tierfling Scoundrel 16AP, Spellsinger 44 AP, Warchanter 24 AP, Swashbuckler 7 AP). Also, they are not welcome in THTH because they cause more lag. And don’t going to try to swing a weapon with a spellsinger.

    In conclusion:
    • Magister. Add Wisdom as a possible stat.
    • Draconic: Add +4 DC Evocation and Conjuration in a Core, and Wisdom as a possible stat (oh, and like the previous post, lightning and sonic have better sinergy than cold).
    • Fatesinger. Add +4 DC Enchantment in a Core, and that all the pretty effects that are on hit also works with spells, and a spell that gives a dot or big aoe damage in tier 6.


    Edit: a stance like Angelic Presence on Draconic Incarnation would be nice, thst gives +2 charisma and/or Intelligence, and enemies the are hit with your spells have a -2 penalty to mrr?
    Last edited by Strambotica; 06-07-2019 at 10:40 PM.

  13. #153
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    So Fatesinger is losing the Jump+ImmunityToSlipperySurfaces buff, losing Eschew as an automatic low core (instead a Tier 5), and having the Haggle/Perform buff cut in half?

    So, I don't use Fatesinger a ton now, but you're taking away most of the few things I actually do like about it in the present form. If you want to truly make it completely useless to me, remove the Tier 3 Spell Pen twist, too.

    At least the "Epic Moment", which currently specifically doesn't work exactly when you'd most want it to work, versus bosses, is getting fixed. That's something, I guess, though not enough to make me use Fatesinger.
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    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Arcane: +1 INT WIS CHA, +20 Universal SP, +2 Spell Penetration, +4 UMD, +10% fire/cold/acid/electric absorb
    The +1 INT WIS CHA strikes me as really odd for a hymn that you sing on a party member. Could you make that +2 so it will actually work if they have even stats?

  15. #155
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    Great changes to Fatesinger but gonna miss Masked Ball. Was such a nice buff and the +1 cha goes well with my +3 PDK cha boost 8)
    Ilmer Silverhilt, 36pt Elf Fighter12/Monk6/Paladin2. The Kighter
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  16. #156
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strambotica View Post
    First, don’t rush the ED plz. Since probably you don’t gonna touch them for years from now.

    All Casters need DC:

    · Wizard probably need all, since can swap Spells and type of Archmage, So great changes for them.

    · Sorcerers mostly need Evocation and Conjuration, so plz add it on the cores too. Maybe core 4 gives +4 DC to Evocation and Conjuration, like in Exalted Angel.
    Sorcerers need all DC as well, or at the very least Enchantment for mass hold. Without mass hold, the damage output doesn't scale up, and CC is pretty much the only defense for the Sorcerer. Tier-1 DC meta is instant kills, even Sorcerers spec into Necro these days.. Some CC buttons are also too strong next to others, but this is mostly content specific.

  17. #157
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Default Using Magister Tree Now For Epic Reincarnation Purposes

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Magister
    This tree has quite a few neat things but didn't do the one thing it was supposed to do: Be the king of DC Casting. Twisting Magister's bonuses and going into other trees where you got relevant Ability Score increases provided a better bonus than this tree. Only that's not fun, and we'd rather see dedicated DC casters live here and get cool abilities with their DCs. We focused on that goal, and made a few of their other abilities spicier to go with it. The Sigils still aren't good; they fell a bit low on the priority list relative to other things. If there are simple number tweaks we can make to make them more worth using, we're all ears.

    • Added +1 to all Spell DCs to each Core (in addition to what those cores were doing already).
    • Imperceptible Casting adds +10 Universal Spell Power while active.
    • Fade into the Weave adds +25 Universal Spell Power while active.
    • Variable Resistance is unlinked from Sigil of Energy Negation.
    • Master of (Spell School) also increases DCs for that school by an additional 1/2/3.
    • Arcane Tempest moves to a 30-second cooldown, and a 10-second duration. 30 SP.
    • Arcane Tempest is no longer linked to Sigil of Battering Spellcraft
    • Arcane Tempest now costs 1AP
    • Arcane Tempest can now use the Quicken, Maximize, Empower, and Intensify Metamagics
    • Arcane Tempest now has a faster cast animation and cast time
    • Arcane Tempest no longer has a (previously-unlisted) saving throw
    • Arcane Adept now costs 1AP
    • Removed the Saving Throw from Arcane Tempest. (Yeah, it's a DC tree but we wanted it to be good no matter what school you were in.)
    • Arcane Spellsurge now has a 1 minute cooldown. 20 SP
    • Nullmagic Aura no longer requires charging. Now has a 4 minute cooldown.

    Please make it so that Nullmagic strike can proc from melee attacks too, at least while a runearm is equipped or spellsword is being used.

    Also, can you please put a Tensor's Transformation toggle somewhere in this tree? The small duration of my tensor's transformation spell is pathetic.....

  18. #158
    Community Member Shedrakzo's Avatar
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    Another Fatesinger suggestion:
    Since the new version of Majesty doesn't have the blindness guard, perhaps the updated Intoxicating Presence might include a small chance that when you hit a target, there's a chance you fascinate the target. Similar to the guard break effect's daze.

    While it effectively means nothing for the most part as 9/10 someone would immediately break the fascinate, it's just another little bard-flavored bonus that meshes with the bard enhancement trees. Assuming you can fascinate anything the Spellsinger cores work on and can coup the target as a swashbuckler.

    And if it's viable, maybe Reign's vorpal damage could scale with melee power? And perhaps the initial temporary HP could also scale with melee power or something.

  19. #159
    Community Member thunir's Avatar
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    Default Core 4: Intoxicating Presence:

    Core 4: Intoxicating Presence: Enemies that strike you have a chance to be Fascinated.

    Still have not heard anything about this, it a horrible mechanic. you can't factinate anything you are beating on/ that is hitting you. Guardbreaking is better, but I would still rather have blindness.

    Melodic guard ?

    Cacophony Guard would even be better, but a fascinated guard is worthless.

    Reigns damage, also awfully low for the investment. How about +1/2/3 tp the enhancement to you weapon if you don't want to boost the sonic/electric values?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shedrakzo View Post
    Another Fatesinger suggestion:
    Since the new version of Majesty doesn't have the blindness guard, perhaps the updated Intoxicating Presence might include a small chance that when you hit a target, there's a chance you fascinate the target. Similar to the guard break effect's daze.

    While it effectively means nothing for the most part as 9/10 someone would immediately break the fascinate, it's just another little bard-flavored bonus that meshes with the bard enhancement trees. Assuming you can fascinate anything the Spellsinger cores work on and can coup the target as a swashbuckler.

    And if it's viable, maybe Reign's vorpal damage could scale with melee power? And perhaps the initial temporary HP could also scale with melee power or something.


    Reigns damage....
    Last edited by thunir; 06-09-2019 at 03:01 PM.

  20. #160
    Community Member Strambotica's Avatar
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    Mmmm maybe, if in a high tier on Fatesinger you put Charisma for Attack and Damage? or in the Core 6?
    That probably will put melee bard in this weird tree.. just and idea (im dont play melee, so no idea if any good on this tree)

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