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  1. #1
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    Default Rant: "Spies in the House", lamest dungeon ever

    I was soloing this dungeon with 2 hirelings, being very cautious, since i had never been in it before. I rescued all prisoners and killed the mephits at the top electric floor. I turned a valve and poof, i am blown into the middle of the electric floor. It felt like I was still being blown as I tried to jump out. I was out of control. I died. Somehow my rogue didn't see this "gotcha" trap.
    So here is my rant: it seems that dungeons like this give players 2 options (1) Discover all the 'gotchas' through death, wasting a lot of time. Lame. (2) Go through with a seasoned player who shows you every little thing to do. Also lame.

    I prefer to explore and learn vs being spoon fed. My character (wizard) is 12th level, mostly soloing. So far the game has been pretty good, but this one left a bad taste in my mouth. Please tell me these lame dungeons are few.


    One final note: this game is modeled after D&D, but I imagine a DM would lose players if he/she had these gotchas in the dungeons. Those make it more like a console game, not an RPG.

  2. #2
    Forum witchdoctor Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirPalamor View Post
    I was soloing this dungeon with 2 hirelings, being very cautious, since i had never been in it before. I rescued all prisoners and killed the mephits at the top electric floor. I turned a valve and poof, i am blown into the middle of the electric floor. It felt like I was still being blown as I tried to jump out. I was out of control. I died. Somehow my rogue didn't see this "gotcha" trap.
    So here is my rant: it seems that dungeons like this give players 2 options (1) Discover all the 'gotchas' through death, wasting a lot of time. Lame. (2) Go through with a seasoned player who shows you every little thing to do. Also lame.

    I prefer to explore and learn vs being spoon fed. My character (wizard) is 12th level, mostly soloing. So far the game has been pretty good, but this one left a bad taste in my mouth. Please tell me these lame dungeons are few.


    One final note: this game is modeled after D&D, but I imagine a DM would lose players if he/she had these gotchas in the dungeons. Those make it more like a console game, not an RPG.
    as u are a wizard have u tried casting resist electricity?

    and things like that happens. iirc if you have spot it tells you something like you hear the crackle of electricity from above
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  3. #3
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Spies is indeed one of those odd-ish dungeons that can be tricky to learn on your own - good job making it that far, a good number of people get tripped up in the area leading up to the first prisoner (including me sometimes, if I don't have good jump and/or feather-fall).

    Something to know is that Spies has a very large XP payout at the end, to make up for the player skill/learning curve required. In epics (lv 20+), players will have it in a set of "dalies" that they play to get though lv 20-29 quickly.

    I'd say that "Spies in the house" is the quest in DDO that requires the most jumping (the 2nd-most being "Coalescent Chamber", in the Vale). Most of the recently built dungeons don't require you to do this type of jumping.
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirPalamor View Post
    I was soloing this dungeon with 2 hirelings, being very cautious, since i had never been in it before. I rescued all prisoners and killed the mephits at the top electric floor. I turned a valve and poof, i am blown into the middle of the electric floor. It felt like I was still being blown as I tried to jump out. I was out of control. I died. Somehow my rogue didn't see this "gotcha" trap.
    So here is my rant: it seems that dungeons like this give players 2 options (1) Discover all the 'gotchas' through death, wasting a lot of time. Lame. (2) Go through with a seasoned player who shows you every little thing to do. Also lame.

    I prefer to explore and learn vs being spoon fed. My character (wizard) is 12th level, mostly soloing. So far the game has been pretty good, but this one left a bad taste in my mouth. Please tell me these lame dungeons are few.

    One final note: this game is modeled after D&D, but I imagine a DM would lose players if he/she had these gotchas in the dungeons. Those make it more like a console game, not an RPG.
    That's exactly what I (and many many others I'm sure) thought the first time I did spies.

    But give it time, come back prepared for electricity resist and/or on a lower difficulty, explore it some more, figure it out, and by the time you've done some more lives spies will be one of the most fun quests you look forward to each life while others have grown stale.

    While they are relatively few, many of the dungeons that seem "lame" first time are some of the best most replayable content in fact - unlike pen and paper we do repeat dungeons, and learning the traps and tricks is part of the satisfaction.

    Disclaimer: never do it on a day when you've got a laggy connection, given all the jumping and somewhat glitchy air jets - even knowing the shortcuts it can still be an exercise in frustration.
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  5. #5
    Community Member kamimitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    I'd say that "Spies in the house" is the quest in DDO that requires the most jumping (the 2nd-most being "Coalescent Chamber", in the Vale). Most of the recently built dungeons don't require you to do this type of jumping.
    I'd give the "Super Mario" award to The Pit. The three furnace rooms all require excellent jumping and landing skills, and they're pretty long runs to get to the switches. Spies is pretty tame on the jumping in comparison (though still greater than rest of DDO).
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  6. #6
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamimitsu View Post
    I'd give the "Super Mario" award to The Pit. The three furnace rooms all require excellent jumping and landing skills, and they're pretty long runs to get to the switches. Spies is pretty tame on the jumping in comparison (though still greater than rest of DDO).
    I dont think Spies hard requires jumping, since the air jets (tho buggy as hell) can land on the right spots, they just tend not to.

  7. #7
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    Counterpoint: Spies in the House is a lot of fun, and it's a great quest.
    It demands planning and forethought, and it has a rewarding learning curve that once you figure it out - it's a fun challenge.
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  8. #8
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Counterpoint: Spies in the House is a lot of fun, and it's a great quest.
    It demands planning and forethought, and it has a rewarding learning curve that once you figure it out - it's a fun challenge.
    Nope, the quest is just annoying. Honestly it is the glitchy Air Jets that only work if you know the exact pixel to stand on so they allow you to land in the "correct" spot after they push you. If that could ever be fixed, I would enjoy it immensely.

    To the OP, the electric floors are bad. Especially the last one (Water Elemental's blast you from above). Electric Resists and Protection from Energy are required dependent on gear/build. The quest is pretty standard (i.e. linear) but requires you to travel North/South instead of East/West.
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  9. #9
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    It is tough to explore the game solo, but you can help yourself by making sure that one of your hirelings is a cleric that can resurrect you (in which case such deaths are not too terrible) and be willing to run back into a dungeon if you do wipe completely. I have had a number of quests where I reentered many times. It's all part of the learning curve.
    Last edited by erethizon; 05-30-2019 at 03:44 AM.

  10. #10
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    Also the reason why there is a lot of xp as a reward. And isn't there an extreme challenge warning on the difficulty settings window?

  11. #11
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoLionxxx View Post
    I'd say that "Spies in the house" is the quest in DDO that requires the most jumping (the 2nd-most being "Coalescent Chamber", in the Vale). Most of the recently built dungeons don't require you to do this type of jumping.
    Really? The most jumping? I think people are starting to forget The Pit. And also that solo quest in IQ2.

    Also, Coal Chamber, if done right, should take as little jumping as possible (you bump your head - you fly off), but it is indeed quite a vertical quest.

    I'd love to see fewer liniar, two-dimensional and more three-dimentional dungeons in the game. TOEE Air Temple was a nice try, for example. Also happy to see that Sharn is trying to bring some of that back, if not in all its glory.

    The only thing I'd love to see fixed / changed is the air jets. Fun idea, but been lagging / glitching for me for years.
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  12. #12
    Community Member kelavas's Avatar
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    but da xp tho
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirPalamor View Post
    One final note: this game is modeled after D&D, but I imagine a DM would lose players if he/she had these gotchas in the dungeons. Those make it more like a console game, not an RPG.
    Tomb of Horrors is one of the most popular modules. Most characters die in there.

    I get that the game is mature to where we are past the point where players want to open anything on a lesser difficulty setting, but due to this, dungeons with more environmental hazards will be less forgiving.

  14. #14
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    I totally agree. I just can't jump to 'save my life', so i rarely ever run spies in the house because i can't get off the 1st floor ( unless i'm in a group that let me pike, i do state i can't do the quest). Add the Pit (at least i can follow and help), same with Coalescent Chamber and the new-ish dragon 1 with the air jets. After playing for 7 years or so there are about 6 quests that i've done once Reaver's reach pack is 4 of them. I've done Amrath 2 or 3 times. Never done Litany of the dead raid or cannith raids. Maybe 1 day i'll do evry quest or raid in the game. But I'm happy and still enjoy DDO very much.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I'd love to see fewer liniar, two-dimensional and more three-dimentional dungeons in the game.
    I do like levels that incorporate dimensionality well. Not only 3D maps but also large area maps like the beginning of Lost at Sea, or even just pseudo-open maps like Yester Hill (hypothetically, without the lag). However, I'd much rather see them err on the side of linear railroad maps than create complicated 3D layering, because the minimap feature just does NOT support that well, and you get totally lost when you combine overlapping passageways with paths that branch off too much. Double that if the map has an "explore this area to find a thing" mechanic, because its impossible to tell what you've explored on a given level and where you just ran over/under it before. Yes I'm thinking of finding the Woman in Black...

    I like Amber Temple as far as 3D maps go. It creates a feeling of depth but doesnt bury things under each other. Castle Ravenloft also, since that breaks it up into separate maps, which is another way to do it but does involve loading screens. I dont like the Cogs though, or the Warehouse in Sharn, because you cant actually tell if the path you think you see on the map is the one you're actually on, if you can get to it, or if its even a path at all.

  16. #16

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    I did that quest without explicitly killing anything, so try that as a challenge. Also, I did it on a toon without any gear equipped about 2 years ago or so...Both solo
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  17. #17
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    Strangely, not the air jets/jumping that annoys me about this quest. Even though I can never use the air jet to get to a safe spot on the first electric floor layer (I just have to load up on electricity res and protection then leg it to the nearest box).

    More annoying to me is:
    (a) difficulty of killing the elementals with a melee char, resulting in getting bombarded with fireballs while trying to clear the area (far easier with a ranged char).
    (b) difficulty in turning the valves which you can only do by standing on top of those stupid cold jets that interrupt you.

  18. #18
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Nope, the quest is just annoying. Honestly it is the glitchy Air Jets that only work if you know the exact pixel to stand on so they allow you to land in the "correct" spot after they push you. If that could ever be fixed, I would enjoy it immensely.
    The jet that comes right before the Fire Elementals is the only one that's glitchy in my experience. That one is super annoying, but it isn't at all dangerous because when it does glitch, you just come back down in a safe spot.
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  19. #19
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpw_acc View Post
    Strangely, not the air jets/jumping that annoys me about this quest. Even though I can never use the air jet to get to a safe spot on the first electric floor layer (I just have to load up on electricity res and protection then leg it to the nearest box).

    More annoying to me is:
    (a) difficulty of killing the elementals with a melee char, resulting in getting bombarded with fireballs while trying to clear the area (far easier with a ranged char).
    (b) difficulty in turning the valves which you can only do by standing on top of those stupid cold jets that interrupt you.
    100% agreed on (a)
    (b) isn't nearly as bad once you learn where to stand. Doing it on Epic reaper at level solo is a pain, but parking a resurrection Hireling below that area gives you infinite attempts to learn where to stand. If you turn the "side" lever first and then the lever closest to the way up (the one that's further away from the boxes) and only do the lever with the cold jets that interrupt you last, you'll avoid most of the hassle. You can stand in a safe spot and turn that last valve.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I do like levels that incorporate dimensionality well. Not only 3D maps but also large area maps like the beginning of Lost at Sea, or even just pseudo-open maps like Yester Hill (hypothetically, without the lag). However, I'd much rather see them err on the side of linear railroad maps than create complicated 3D layering, because the minimap feature just does NOT support that well, and you get totally lost when you combine overlapping passageways with paths that branch off too much. Double that if the map has an "explore this area to find a thing" mechanic, because its impossible to tell what you've explored on a given level and where you just ran over/under it before. Yes I'm thinking of finding the Woman in Black...

    I like Amber Temple as far as 3D maps go. It creates a feeling of depth but doesnt bury things under each other. Castle Ravenloft also, since that breaks it up into separate maps, which is another way to do it but does involve loading screens. I dont like the Cogs though, or the Warehouse in Sharn, because you cant actually tell if the path you think you see on the map is the one you're actually on, if you can get to it, or if its even a path at all.
    Yea, maps are important. But, if anything, they've proven that it's possible to do dynamic maps in DDO, and they've gotten much better at it (except for cases where they decide not to do it, for some reason). Something like Castle Ravenloft is a decent example of a big multi-layered place that's nonetheless possible to navigate in-game.

    The problem of some of the Sharn quests is not so much in minimap design, but in quest design. There's sometimes not enough indication where to go in an open space, directions are vague or plain wrong etc. For example, I think Just Business lacks visual and gameplay clues as to where you need to go. A quest like The Pit has virtually no map, but at least there are textual, visual and audio clues showing you where to go. A happy middle ground would be great

    P.S. I think non-linear quests are also great, i.e. multiple mandatory objectives that can be checked out of order, or approached from different sides of the map. Many of the old quests have this, e.g. Waterworks.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 05-30-2019 at 09:09 AM.
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