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  1. #121
    Community Member Firebreed's Avatar
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    I can't believe I'm reading some of the things I'm reading.

  2. #122
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Almost everyone I talked to personally in-game or otherwise (discord), agree that normal is too difficulty. There is no need to have the first difficulty setting to be too hard for the weakest players, they are allowed to have fun in there too. There are many difficulty settings, those that want the "challenge" can just increase the setting.

    IMO a good raid is fun for everyone.
    Those that don't want the challenge but just an easy fun run, can do a low setting. Those that want the challenge, can do higher.

    As Slarden said, luckily the devs realised this and it is being toned down.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I see your point, but you're not going to convince anyone. Arguing for making the raid more accompanying to casual players is landing on deaf ears because there are plenty of people who believe that this raid shouldn't be accessible to said players. Random unprepared PUGs can't complete the hardest raid in the game. So what? Groups that are completing usually consist of many veteran players. Yeah, and? Only accomplished players are completing the most difficult raid DDO has to offer. Yeah? Good.

    Should the raid be made easier to accompany more casual players? That's what you're arguing. But others don't see it that way. They want to keep the hardest raid in the game - the only tier 4 raid as of now - exclusive to the more elite players. You see a problem with that, they don't. You don't see this raid as viable for PUG groups. They would point towards the multiple completions in PUGs - I've witness a few myself - as a counterargument. The developers have even claimed completion on first-life under-geared characters. You might argue that the challenge should be kept to Hard or Elite. Others might agree so long as the named loot is kept to Hard and Elite as well.

    Finally we have a raid that has nothing to do with past lives or reaper wings, and everything to do with communication and the right strategy. Should it be made easier to accompany those who don't wish to learn the mechanics or utilize the correct strategy? I'm not so sure about that.
    See, and this is a problematic attitude. No one is asking for it to be accomplished by random underprepared pug groups on R10, or even on elite or hard. But ALL content in this game should be accessible to everyone. If there is content that is too difficult for a group of prepared puggers that are working together the best they can given that they are not familiar with each other - on NORMAL - then it is too difficult. It should require more than that for higher difficulties. But it's ridiculous for people to want there to be content that simply can't be completed by some people on any difficulty because they aren't it the right clique.
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  4. #124
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Cool Whistling in the dark...

    I posted about a week ago that I'd seen only one LFM up for this raid since release.

    A week later and I've seen absolutely nothing since.

    Whether too hard or not, this raid simply isn't being run.

    I think that's why the devs are toning it down, and rightly so.

    After all, what's the point of making a game no one plays?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    After all, what's the point of making a game no one plays?
    And yet are still expected to pay for it.

    Perhaps they should have lowered the price of Sharn and charged separately for the raids. A great many of us who will never be able to run it were expected to sponsor those that have the resources to do so. I used to know a nice group of people who regularly ran raids, but their leader got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and had his toons summarily deleted. His guild fell apart, and many of the incredibly talented players he brought together simply left. Now the raid scene on my server is on life support. I will certainly never find a pickup group to run this particular raid with. It was just a waste of money.

    But hey, no one beat it the first day so hooray!

  6. #126
    Community Member Fallout47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bracelet View Post
    And yet are still expected to pay for it.

    Perhaps they should have lowered the price of Sharn and charged separately for the raids. A great many of us who will never be able to run it were expected to sponsor those that have the resources to do so. I used to know a nice group of people who regularly ran raids, but their leader got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and had his toons summarily deleted. His guild fell apart, and many of the incredibly talented players he brought together simply left. Now the raid scene on my server is on life support. I will certainly never find a pickup group to run this particular raid with. It was just a waste of money.

    But hey, no one beat it the first day so hooray!
    Exactly, no one will beat this one on R10. They apparently lost their collective '@$r^!4' when their RL raids were bested at R10. Unfortunately in the effort to make sure the min/maxers won't embarrass them ever again, they have left the PUG population largely out in the cold.
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  7. #127
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    See, and this is a problematic attitude. No one is asking for it to be accomplished by random underprepared pug groups on R10, or even on elite or hard. But ALL content in this game should be accessible to everyone. If there is content that is too difficult for a group of prepared puggers that are working together the best they can given that they are not familiar with each other - on NORMAL - then it is too difficult. It should require more than that for higher difficulties. But it's ridiculous for people to want there to be content that simply can't be completed by some people on any difficulty because they aren't it the right clique.
    Agreed. With the state of the game today, people need to feel like they get what they pay for. I’m sure if pugs had a reasonable chance 70% maybe, this would be pugged more. I don’t have an issue with releasing as it was and scaling it back after watching the numbers as they did. I do think the people who want to be able to complete, and exclude others, are not thinking about the state of the game as a whole so much as pumping their own egos about how good they are. Hence the exclusive (or lack of) lens, the lack of explanation replaced by “get good strategy” and “just learn the mechanics” speak.

    This game needs all the players it can to stay around. So excluding a large segment from being able to run the raid in the newest expensive errrr expansion they paid for is a sure fire way to reduce future sales.
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  8. #128
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Why is it that people so quick to throw shade never have their facts straight. I've only joined the raid on my high DC fvs instakiller/healer which is in my sig. I have a super high will save against the evil damage and significant fire absorb. I didn't have an issue with survivability in the raid until it got out of hand with maybe a dozen or so red-named wraiths. I was raising people alot and trying to keep people healed, but was not able to keep up with it as I've been able to do in other raids.

    I was in the raid with the best player in the game and a 2 other strong players and 8 characters I didn't know that appeared to be casual players. I couldn't see what everyone else was doing, but I feel I did a good job at my role but there was no possibility that could influence the success of the raid and there was no chance I could keep everyone healed. I killed whatever came near me, but the group needed my heals more than anything else.
    I don’t know players on sarlona enough to know if firegoddess is/isn’t the best player eva in the game. I know he’s a nice person from a few server xfer peeps who knew him, and that he has 156+ reaper points. Almost all of those reaper points however mean nothing in this raid, because as you said, it was only LN. If you are talking about best player because they have 156+ reaper points, i know of at least 1 other person that has maxxed reaper xp.

    The best player I ever knew on ghallanda (sadly he doesn’t play anymore) was soloing r7s on a melee tempastdin pre-Ravenloft era when everyone in this forum was talking about how terrible melee were. Bestamest player is probably very server dependent.

    This raid is not a raid where (and I mean no offense) 1-2 of the bestamest players can carry the entire raid group. The number of reaper points you have means very little. Your group’s communication, teamwork, and dedicated roles get you through this raid. There’s 8 minute pugs on Ghallanda because the players joining do their role effectively, and they rely on their buddies to have their back.

    From the complaints on this forum, it’s sounding like players want to be able to have 1-2 uber toons drag their guildies through r1. Im all for pugs completing this raid. I’m just not for a group of 700-800 hps builds being dragged by one super toon.

    THTH requires roles. It requires so many roles that there is literally no build that wouldn’t be a welcome addition to the raid group if it was player right. But, you can’t have 7+ casters and absolutely no dps. You can’t have 5+ healers and nothing else. You need support toons to get through the raid, but you also need dps. You also want a tank.

    They listened to all the complainers who were pushing for N/H/E to matter because they couldn’t, or didn’t want to, get rxp. Only like almost all wishes, they didn’t think what that would mean. Oh the horror. Oh the humanity.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 06-10-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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  9. #129
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    This raid is one giant DPS check. You bring heavy DPS for the Titan, and you deal with fewer waves of trash, fewer opportunities for the RNG to screw you, fewer opportunities for red wraiths to spawn, etc, etc. I've been in a raid where the DPS was high enough to knock the Titan out of the first phase before the elevator adds even spawned. That raid was successful. I've been in other raids where there were 2-3 spawns of elevator adds in the first phase. Those raids don't make it phase phase 2. Keeping up with skull spawn, skull spawn, elevator spawn, repeat is within their ability, but double skull spawn, elevator spawn, wraith spawn leads to deaths, deaths lead to trash not clearing, uncleared trash kills more people, more things keep spawning, and the raid wipes.

    The mechanics aren't difficult, but that doesn't mean the raid is easy. For a low DPS raid group, the raid is exceptionally unforgiving. For a high DPS raid group, you can afford to have a person or two help raise people or cover some else's job. I'm sure given time and mud-flation, the raid will be completed so quickly for such high rewards that the devs will either nerf or close it. It is, after all, really only gated by the boss hitpoint level as the puzzle phases are extremely quick.

  10. #130
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    This raid is one giant DPS check. You bring heavy DPS for the Titan, and you deal with fewer waves of trash, fewer opportunities for the RNG to screw you, fewer opportunities for red wraiths to spawn, etc, etc.
    It’s funny because most of the people I see trashing this raid are usually those who also trash people’s lamma kobold tests.

    Something-something can’t do any dps if you’re dead.

    DDO has always been about big dps numbers.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    This raid is not a raid where (and I mean no offense) 1-2 of the bestamest players can carry the entire raid group. The number of reaper points you have means very little. Your group’s communication, teamwork, and dedicated roles get you through this raid. There’s 8 minute pugs on Ghallanda because the players joining do their role effectively, and they rely on their buddies to have their back.
    You can have all the communication in the world, but if you don't have the DPS, you're not doing an 8 minute run. You're also not doing an 8 minute run with scrub DPS. You're absolutely correct that 1-2 players can't carry this raid. There's likely a variety of experiences on this raid because if your 4-5 core players are all DPS monsters, then yes, good communication and teamwork will lead to a successful and quick completion. Trash control isn't exactly rocket surgery. However, if your 4-5 core players are all DC casters and healers, you're not going to be able to teamwork your way out of the fact that random PUG people don't have optimized DPS.

    I think it's good that the devs are looking at the pacing of the raid. There will be a point at which you can't burst the boss down quickly enough (either through hitpoint inflation or damage penalties applied by Reaper mode) and this raid won't be able to be brute forced. The pace of spawns at those difficulties can make an enormous difference when you have to sustain through multiple wave cycles per phase.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    See, and this is a problematic attitude. No one is asking for it to be accomplished by random underprepared pug groups on R10, or even on elite or hard. But ALL content in this game should be accessible to everyone. If there is content that is too difficult for a group of prepared puggers that are working together the best they can given that they are not familiar with each other - on NORMAL - then it is too difficult. It should require more than that for higher difficulties. But it's ridiculous for people to want there to be content that simply can't be completed by some people on any difficulty because they aren't it the right clique.
    /\This/\.

    With consideration:

    A lot of raids were tough back in their day, but eventually we figured them out. A lot of Quests, too. If you weren't good enough for H/E there was N/C. (Old Coyle comes to mind.)

    The ultimate promise made by the DEVs was that they would NOT scale the game toward Reaper.

    If, given enough time, it proves out this raid is nigh impossible for a PUG to complete on normal, it should be adjusted down- for NORMAL difficulty only. The game is already impossible enough for new/casual players.

    Otherwise, keep it just as nasty as it is for Elite and up. Reaper was supposed to challenge the vocal minority who felt the game was too easy; sounds like this raid is exactly what they wanted.

  13. #133
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    You can have all the communication in the world, but if you don't have the DPS, you're not doing an 8 minute run. You're also not doing an 8 minute run with scrub DPS. You're absolutely correct that 1-2 players can't carry this raid. There's likely a variety of experiences on this raid because if your 4-5 core players are all DPS monsters, then yes, good communication and teamwork will lead to a successful and quick completion. Trash control isn't exactly rocket surgery. However, if your 4-5 core players are all DC casters and healers, you're not going to be able to teamwork your way out of the fact that random PUG people don't have optimized DPS.
    Please finish reading my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    THTH requires roles. It requires so many roles that there is literally no build that wouldn’t be a welcome addition to the raid group if it was player right. But, you can’t have 7+ casters and absolutely no dps. You can’t have 5+ healers and nothing else. You need support toons to get through the raid, but you also need dps. You also want a tank.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    It’s funny because most of the people I see trashing this raid are usually those who also trash people’s lamma kobold tests.

    Something-something can’t do any dps if you’re dead.

    DDO has always been about big dps numbers.
    I agree with you. DPS makes every raid easier.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Please finish reading my post.
    I finished reading your post. I saw the "But, you can’t have 7+ casters and absolutely no dps. You can’t have 5+ healers and nothing else." People that are struggling with this raid aren't bringing "absolutely no dps". They aren't bringing 5+ healers and nothing else. The problem is that they aren't bringing multiple optimized DPS characters for any number of reasons.

    There seems to be a couple of sides being argued. "Learn the tactics and have even a moderately balanced group and it's easy" vs "no true PUG (open invite) can complete this raid". I think the truth is closer to the latter and could be moved more towards the former end (tactics + moderately balanced group) through the pacing changes mentioned by the devs.

  16. #136
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    So I see they’re implementing changes tomorrow.

    After reading this thread for a while, if I were a dev, what I would do for normal;

    Remove the Titan from the raid on normal. One set of crystal/lower lvl puzzles completes the raid. Raid drops 20 runes and 10 threads on normal. And change nothing in Hard+. Accessibility problems solved. Pug grouping issues with 100% randos solved.

    Make a T4 raid timer for 500 ddop. See if Flimsy’s statement comes true.
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I see your point, but you're not going to convince anyone. Arguing for making the raid more accompanying to casual players is landing on deaf ears because there are plenty of people who believe that this raid shouldn't be accessible to said players. Random unprepared PUGs can't complete the hardest raid in the game. So what? Groups that are completing usually consist of many veteran players. Yeah, and? Only accomplished players are completing the most difficult raid DDO has to offer. Yeah? Good.

    Should the raid be made easier to accompany more casual players? That's what you're arguing. But others don't see it that way. They want to keep the hardest raid in the game - the only tier 4 raid as of now - exclusive to the more elite players. You see a problem with that, they don't. You don't see this raid as viable for PUG groups. They would point towards the multiple completions in PUGs - I've witness a few myself - as a counterargument. The developers have even claimed completion on first-life under-geared characters. You might argue that the challenge should be kept to Hard or Elite. Others might agree so long as the named loot is kept to Hard and Elite as well.

    Finally we have a raid that has nothing to do with past lives or reaper wings, and everything to do with communication and the right strategy. Should it be made easier to accompany those who don't wish to learn the mechanics or utilize the correct strategy? I'm not so sure about that.
    Well I am glad we are having an honest discussion as it was obvious this is the viewpoint of you and several others but you are the only person to say it.

    First of all casual and unprepared are NOT the same thing. When I say the raid should be completable on normal by an average group since average means prepared but maybe not with all the past lifes, etc. A below average group would be upprepared and poorly constructed. I don't think the raid should be a guaranteed completion by a below average group and as far as I've seen NOBODY said that. I've watched groups fail the raid on twitch and in pugs I joined and I don't think the raid failed because of lack of communication or strategy. I think they didn't know precisely what to do and the raid is very punishing if you don't know precisely what to do which can be overcome by super high dps. I think it is a hard raid to tech to 11 others and I don't think any of the leaders I've run with fully understood what to do. I am not sure I do except my role as healer instakiller was fairly easy to know what to do - but I couldn't keep everyone up or even healed despite my best effort.

    It's up to SSG what the devs want for raiding - my personal opinion is that people shouldn't be excluded from raiding because they don't have time to build an optimal character or grind out power. That is what normal difficulty is for. I'll join raids on normal and hard just to have fun and not worry about how uber people are or what the rewards are. One thing I've never done in this game is reject people that weren't powerful enough and I would never do that. I don't think the game should be like that on normal.

    We both have differing opinions but the devs ultimately decide the tone of the game and raid inclusiveness - not you or I.

    I am aware of pug completions but it's hard to know exactly what that means. A strong core with a few randoms or a few known strong people? 1 person leading 11 people new to the raid? I am guessing the latter is not super common. I am more familiar with Sarlona folks and it seems the completions posted are groups of strong people that run together with a few pugs - mostly strong characters. I don't see a bunch of unknown people in those pugs.

    Either way I watched hours of videos, came prepared and tried to practice what I learned in the videos and from posts. It's certainly wasn't enough and I had no chance of keeping everyone healed or alive, but I did try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    From the complaints on this forum, it’s sounding like players want to be able to have 1-2 uber toons drag their guildies through r1. Im all for pugs completing this raid. I’m just not for a group of 700-800 hps builds being dragged by one super toon..
    I've read all the comments in many threads and NEVER heard a single person say this except you just now. Are you sure people are saying this or is it possible you just made this up now. What I've said is that the raid should be accessible to a larger group of people on normal but maybe I missed all those posts demanding to be able to drag people through on R1- I don't recall seeing any of those. I can probably request my way into power group runs if I ask, but I would prefer to just run in pugs with some of my more casual friends and the larger community.

    The groups I was in that failed- I didn't see anyone below 1000 hp but didn't do a bell curve on the group. I did scan the group and thought hp and builds looked reasonable to me for normal. I am not sure where you get your data, but it doesn't seem very accurate to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    DDO has always been about big dps numbers.
    And this will require super balanced builds which DDO doesn't have if raids are scaled around top tier dps. That reminds me of the old days when a ranger wants into a raid "Tempest or Arcane Archer?". If you reply arcane archer it's a turbo-reject.
    Last edited by slarden; 06-10-2019 at 07:07 PM.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    So I see they’re implementing changes tomorrow.

    After reading this thread for a while, if I were a dev, what I would do for normal;

    Remove the Titan from the raid on normal. One set of crystal/lower lvl puzzles completes the raid. Raid drops 20 runes and 10 threads on normal. And change nothing in Hard+. Accessibility problems solved. Pug grouping issues with 100% randos solved.

    Make a T4 raid timer for 500 ddop. See if Flimsy’s statement comes true.
    I dont understand you

    It is clearly too difficult as it is now for normal difficulty.

    Damage is scaled like an r2-3 ravenloft raid
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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    I dont understand you

    It is clearly too difficult as it is now for normal difficulty.

    Damage is scaled like an r2-3 ravenloft raid
    Damage is scaled like an r2-3 RL raid if you don’t have defenses.

    This thread was started with a complaint about taking 20k damage from an easily avoidable circle mechanic that, based on the damage amount, was pretty obviously meant to be a one-shot. The obvious solution to that is to pay attention and avoid the circles.

    My 100 mrr rogue with 50% sheathe and 38% CC absorb was taking 150-200 lava damage on our LH runs. I’d hardly call that crazy.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 06-10-2019 at 07:02 PM.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    I dont understand you

    It is clearly too difficult as it is now for normal difficulty.

    Damage is scaled like an r2-3 ravenloft raid
    This is untrue, we've completed with dudes that only have 2 lives and like 900 hit points on normal ~that did not die~. However they followed instructions and did what they were supposed to do.

    We've also had group jibbers/meld/beat boss to win moments because we ignored/missed a mechanic or the ddo dev fallback lag a whole instance mechanic got us.
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