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  1. #21
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb View Post
    I also had 50% fire absorption for energy sheath fire, this is on normal.
    Fire Sheathe is the bare minimum requirement for this raid IMO. Simply doing the bare minimum is not going to cut the raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb View Post
    This was also the 9th or 10th we tried this with mostly Guild mates. Most have several past past lives.


    Getting a bit frustrated with it. We also have some of our guildies not wanting to do the raid anymore due to their frustration with it.
    As someone who has pushed raids, a good guild/leader should find a line where the game becomes unfun/depressing. We do our best to balance this when we push skulls on other raids. My personal motto is that “Pain is the best teacher”, but there is a line between learning and excessive.

    We had the same experience as your guild. Our first 6-8 attempts were failures. After that, and when it became obvious that we were doing something wrong that would require more time to think about, and not wanting to have our members despise playing the raid/game, we decided to stop for the night and brainstorm some ideas before reattempting the raid.

    We completed two days later, on our second attempt. After that we have tried three more times with two completions, averaging about 13-14 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb View Post
    I do feel like we are missing something, but so far I have to side on "it is too hard for normal for the common player"

    it has never taken my guild more then 3 or 4 tries, to figure out a raid. Right now we can't take any of the weaker players in our guild
    so pugs? forget it
    My experience in the raid leads me to disagree with you. The line between completing this raid and failing it is extremely thin. Often the failure comes extremely quick and cascading, making it appear worse, or more hopeless than it actually is.

    Build strength is less of a factor than tactics in this raid, and I would rather have 12 skilled people on first life characters, but who are willing to prepare, willing to try different tactics, and willing to work together. Instead of 12 winged racial Completionists who all think they are the best player eva and will personally carry the raid.

    While I believe that right now the raid is out of the reach of most pugs, I don’t think any build doesn’t belong in the raid. This raid punishes poor choices/mistakes extremely hard. Preparing pre-raid is a must, and is also IMO what the devs are looking for from this raid; completable by any group with enough coordination, preparation, and skill required, regardless of past life powercreep.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  2. #22
    Community Member Ughh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Fire Sheathe is the bare minimum requirement for this raid IMO. Simply doing the bare minimum is not going to cut the raid.



    As someone who has pushed raids, a good guild/leader should find a line where the game becomes unfun/depressing. We do our best to balance this when we push skulls on other raids. My personal motto is that “Pain is the best teacher”, but there is a line between learning and excessive.

    We had the same experience as your guild. Our first 6-8 attempts were failures. After that, and when it became obvious that we were doing something wrong that would require more time to think about, and not wanting to have our members despise playing the raid/game, we decided to stop for the night and brainstorm some ideas before reattempting the raid.

    We completed two days later, on our second attempt. After that we have tried three more times with two completions, averaging about 13-14 minutes.



    My experience in the raid leads me to disagree with you. The line between completing this raid and failing it is extremely thin. Often the failure comes extremely quick and cascading, making it appear worse, or more hopeless than it actually is.

    Build strength is less of a factor than tactics in this raid, and I would rather have 12 skilled people on first life characters, but who are willing to prepare, willing to try different tactics, and willing to work together. Instead of 12 winged racial Completionists who all think they are the best player eva and will personally carry the raid.

    While I believe that right now the raid is out of the reach of most pugs, I don’t think any build doesn’t belong in the raid. This raid punishes poor choices/mistakes extremely hard. Preparing pre-raid is a must, and is also IMO what the devs are looking for from this raid; completable by any group with enough coordination, preparation, and skill required, regardless of past life powercreep.
    I totally agree, We had a mixed group some very experienced peeps and as for myself i just got back after 6 years, no lives on either main toons when i returned, now just 3 past lives on each. preparation was the key to finishing. We tried 4 times for best strategy, fifth time went very well. It really isn't that bad once you get the strategy worked out. I thoroughly enjoyed it and can't wait to finish on hard will try to get a better video on next completion with some better explanations of what is going on. That last run was a culmination of our strategies, next run we will go over everything before we start so all are on the same page I would love to take credit for everything but i cannot, the planning was done by others, i just feel honored to have been a part of it and will be happy to give any advice i can for others attempting it.
    Ughh ,Ughhfu, Ughhina , Ughhtoaster, Rleeermey, Rotund Shogun, Ughhella, Ughhette, Ughhalee, Ughhkilla, Ughhgodanotherone, plus way too many bank toons.
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  3. #23
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    While I believe that right now the raid is out of the reach of most pugs, I don’t think any build doesn’t belong in the raid. This raid punishes poor choices/mistakes extremely hard. Preparing pre-raid is a must, and is also IMO what the devs are looking for from this raid; completable by any group with enough coordination, preparation, and skill required, regardless of past life powercreep.
    Time will tell. Hopefully it doesn't become another Riding the Storm Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  4. #24
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    Default easy job

    first times,i feel very easy,last night
    we have 3healer,1DC,1Tank and 7 best DPS
    DC clear trash,focus
    Tank kite redname trash
    3healer and DPS stand together and focus boss

    20 min after,we won

  5. #25
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Imo quite some people are missing the point?

    "Yeah we completed NORMAL and it was easy, you just need to run the raid X times with a full group consisting of X tanks, X healers, X ranged dps, X monks with EIN, etc etc". Good luck with EIN on hard and higher btw, I'm sure your party members will appreciate you upgrading orange named that you can't instakill :P

    Congrats you completed normal! :P

    The damage, and perhaps the mechanics are too much for normal imo. The raid should be accesible for all players, not just those that dedicate numerous attempts in a guild or static group.

  6. #26
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicstorms View Post
    Imo quite some people are missing the point?

    "Yeah we completed NORMAL and it was easy, you just need to run the raid X times with a full group consisting of X tanks, X healers, X ranged dps, X monks with EIN, etc etc". Good luck with EIN on hard and higher btw, I'm sure your party members will appreciate you upgrading orange named that you can't instakill :P

    Congrats you completed normal! :P

    The damage, and perhaps the mechanics are too much for normal imo. The raid should be accesible for all players, not just those that dedicate numerous attempts in a guild or static group.
    From what I’ve seen of the raid I do think the damage should be scaled back some for normal. I do not think the mechanics need to be changed at this point. The raid is completable by pugs imo, I just think it’s going to take a little time for the strategies to get worked out.

    I don’t really have an issue with a new raid coming out and players needing time to figure it out. The devs can watch completion rates, and see strategies people are using and decide if they need to scale it back a little.
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  7. #27
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    The skull damage should be dialed down on normal. Anything else is cool - and thats coming from someone in a small guild that hasnt completed the raid yet but is working on it as a raid leader with half guildies half pick up. But those skulls need to be dialed down a bit imho.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicstorms View Post
    Imo quite some people are missing the point?

    "Yeah we completed NORMAL and it was easy, you just need to run the raid X times with a full group consisting of X tanks, X healers, X ranged dps, X monks with EIN, etc etc". Good luck with EIN on hard and higher btw, I'm sure your party members will appreciate you upgrading orange named that you can't instakill :P

    Congrats you completed normal! :P

    The damage, and perhaps the mechanics are too much for normal imo. The raid should be accesible for all players, not just those that dedicate numerous attempts in a guild or static group.
    I mean, relying on dps is a much simpler way.u can try it

  9. #29
    Traveler of the Skies Frogger1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Time will tell. Hopefully it doesn't become another Riding the Storm Out.
    So, for both THTH and RSO you need the right element resistance/absorption item and the right element Energy Sheath twisted from Draconic Incarnation. In that sense at least it looks exactly like RSO to me. With the added benefit that, if you run both THTH and RSO, or THTH and Killing Time, you get to reset Draconic Incarnation every time you need to change the required Energy Sheath.

  10. #30
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkmoon_cn View Post
    I mean, relying on dps is a much simpler way.u can try it
    I have no idea how that relates to my post sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogger1234 View Post
    So, for both THTH and RSO you need the right element resistance/absorption item and the right element Energy Sheath twisted from Draconic Incarnation. In that sense at least it looks exactly like RSO to me. With the added benefit that, if you run both THTH and RSO, or THTH and Killing Time, you get to reset Draconic Incarnation every time you need to change the required Energy Sheath.
    THTH is nothing like RSO imo. Sure you both need absorbtion, but the raid is much different in many aspects :P

  11. #31
    Community Member kelavas's Avatar
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    Arrow

    Hope the next raid isn't a disappointment.
    "A child's eyes light up when they see their Grandpa."

  12. #32
    Traveler of the Skies Frogger1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicstorms View Post
    THTH is nothing like RSO imo. Sure you both need absorbtion, but the raid is much different in many aspects :P
    Where did I say they were the same, other than in that exact regard?

  13. #33
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogger1234 View Post
    Where did I say they were the same, other than in that exact regard?
    Fair point xD

  14. #34
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Since i'm a bit bored atm (No it's not because the game is down ), I'll just write up how I think the raid should be changed. Feel free to reply on it of course.

    In general I'd aim for:
    Normal: Can be completed in a PUG that consists of 12 random players without many solid tactics. Consider it a test environment.
    Hard: Can be completed in a PUG with a good strategy. Expect a wipe if you mess it up without some initial preparation though.
    Elite: Should be a pain in a PUG. Probably wiser to only run this when you consists of a lot of solid players that know the raid well.
    Reaper: Mainly for raiding guilds.

    The intention is that the raid should be available for a wide range of people. As it stands now, the raid is a pain on hard in raiding guilds. since we have so many difficulty settings, let's make use of it.

    The following changes I can think of to accomplish this:
    - Tone down the damage in general for all difficulties to achieve the above scaling, in addition to the extra changes below.
    - Remove all orange and red named forgewraiths that spawn on a timer. I think the raid should be able to be completed in a group that doesn't mainly consists of DPS. Let's give groups that rather have it slow and steady a chance too. You can keep the trash spawns (runners and skulls) as it is, that's something that the group has to handle tactic-wise.
    - Alternative to the above: Extending the timer for the orange and red named might be a middle road. Although I'd still worry about ever completing reaper runs with such a hefty DPS check.
    - (Maybe) remove the runners up top when the boss is active. Afaik you should not be up top when the boss is up as the boss will kill you quickly. Since the runners start to run after X seconds, they are already at full speed when they start to drop down. When you only have 2 seconds to deal with it, it's a very small window (especially with lag). You may correct me on this, if i'm wrong :P

    Can't think of anything else atm. In general I really like the raid, don't get me wrong, but I think some final polishing will make it better for everyone. Thanks
    Last edited by Epicstorms; 05-28-2019 at 08:32 AM.

  15. #35
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo_Grubb View Post
    (Combat): Spell Targeting's titanic blast of fire hit you for a total of 6,566 points of fire damage after 61 were blocked by energy resistance.

    I also had 50% fire absorption for energy sheath fire, this is on normal.


    This was also the 9th or 10th we tried this with mostly Guild mates. Most have several past past lives.


    Getting a bit frustrated with it. We also have some of our guildies not wanting to do the raid anymore due to their frustration with it.

    I do feel like we are missing something, but so far I have to side on "it is too hard for normal for the common player"

    it has never taken my guild more then 3 or 4 tries, to figure out a raid. Right now we can't take any of the weaker players in our guild
    so pugs? forget it
    The raid is very tough which is a good change, but I agree the damage is ramped up a bit too much AND red named trash shouldn't be popping immediately on normal. Maybe that 2nd part is some lag or broken mechanic. It's like RSO when it first came out. People have to stack up fire absorb with 2 or 3 items to make it worthwhile. I've completed it 3 times now so I'm not an expert but some of the mechanics seem timed so speed is key (ie puzzles).

    As others have said, trash is priority.

    You need to have:

    2 healers one or both being turning undead makes it MUCH easier
    2+ instakillers for runners and skulls.
    1+ rogue for traps part 3
    2 tanks. one for boss, one for red named trash.
    rest dps with some ranged to help with trash, skulls, etc.

    Even knowing how we completed it, I don't see all of my characters worthy to be included in a raid. It's a bring your A game character and therefore not too pug friendly.

    Reach out to me if you would like to discuss and/or need a 12th.
    Last edited by Thar; 05-28-2019 at 08:39 AM.
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  16. #36
    Community Member ChadB123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicstorms View Post
    In general I'd aim for:
    Normal: Can be completed in a PUG that consists of 12 random players without many solid tactics. Consider it a test environment.
    Hard: Can be completed in a PUG with a good strategy. Expect a wipe if you mess it up without some initial preparation though.
    Elite: Should be a pain in a PUG. Probably wiser to only run this when you consists of a lot of solid players that know the raid well.
    Reaper: Mainly for raiding guilds.

    The intention is that the raid should be available for a wide range of people. As it stands now, the raid is a pain on hard in raiding guilds. since we have so many difficulty settings, let's make use of it.

    The following changes I can think of to accomplish this:
    - Tone down the damage in general for all difficulties to achieve the above scaling, in addition to the extra changes below.
    - Remove all orange and red named forgewraiths that spawn on a timer. I think the raid should be able to be completed in a group that doesn't mainly consists of DPS. Let's give groups that rather have it slow and steady a chance too. You can keep the trash spawns (runners and skulls) as it is, that's something that the group has to handle tactic-wise.
    - Alternative to the above: Extending the timer for the orange and red named might be a middle road. Although I'd still worry about ever completing reaper runs with such a hefty DPS check.
    - (Maybe) remove the runners up top when the boss is active. Afaik you should not be up top when the boss is up as the boss will kill you quickly. Since the runners start to run after X seconds, they are already at full speed when they start to drop down. When you only have 2 seconds to deal with it, it's a very small window (especially with lag). You may correct me on this, if i'm wrong :P

    Can't think of anything else atm. In general I really like the raid, don't get me wrong, but I think some final polishing will make it better for everyone. Thanks
    I don't agree with your descriptions for each difficulty. More specifically, I don't think any raid should be a cake walk, even on normal. I am OK with scaling THTH down in terms of damage to bring it within the grasp of pug groups, but the mechanics should stay. Taking the time to learn raid mechanics to complete is pretty standard across MMOs. There is a culture in DDO that people are deserved a completion simply by stepping into a quest/raid. This shouldn't be the case.

    Second, why should hard be completable by a pug, or raid guild for that matter? This is all subjective, and everyone's opinion differs. To me, hard should be hard and elite an extreme challenge. Reaper? Raid difficulty shouldn't be determined based on reaper. Again, this is an opinion. However, in relation to THTH, it has already been completed on hard just a few weeks after Sharn is released. I'm sure others will get there as well.

    Lastly, I'll comment on "the raid should be able to be completed in a group that doesn't mainly consists of DPS." This is the point I disagree with most. Almost all MMOs, even DDO, are centered around strategy, and that involves class set up. Requiring a DPS check in raids should be standard, not the exception. I remember the one-size-fits-all builds in this game after MOTU came out. Builds that could do it all (heal, dps, cc), so to speak. It made the game extremely boring and many class roles obsolete. Encouraging players to strategize their DPS, heals, spellcasters, etc., is a good thing.

    Just my two cents! See you in game, Storms.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadB123 View Post
    I don't agree with your descriptions for each difficulty. More specifically, I don't think any raid should be a cake walk, even on normal. I am OK with scaling THTH down in terms of damage to bring it within the grasp of pug groups, but the mechanics should stay. Taking the time to learn raid mechanics to complete is pretty standard across MMOs. There is a culture in DDO that people are deserved a completion simply by stepping into a quest/raid. This shouldn't be the case.

    Second, why should hard be completable by a pug, or raid guild for that matter? This is all subjective, and everyone's opinion differs. To me, hard should be hard and elite an extreme challenge. Reaper? Raid difficulty shouldn't be determined based on reaper. Again, this is an opinion. However, in relation to THTH, it has already been completed on hard just a few weeks after Sharn is released. I'm sure others will get there as well.

    Lastly, I'll comment on "the raid should be able to be completed in a group that doesn't mainly consists of DPS." This is the point I disagree with most. Almost all MMOs, even DDO, are centered around strategy, and that involves class set up. Requiring a DPS check in raids should be standard, not the exception. I remember the one-size-fits-all builds in this game after MOTU came out. Builds that could do it all (heal, dps, cc), so to speak. It made the game extremely boring and many class roles obsolete. Encouraging players to strategize their DPS, heals, spellcasters, etc., is a good thing.

    Just my two cents! See you in game, Storms.
    Hey thanks :P

    Idk most raids were completed on the first day of launch, I don't know why that should be different with this raid tbh. I think all players should have a chance to run it. Currently normal is hell in a pug, that shouldn't be the case imo.
    R1 strahd and baba was possible in a pug. I don't think that will ever be the case for THTH :P

    I agree that it's nice that we need to think about certain roles and things, but in the end... DDO is not that well populated. If you pug a raid, you often have to deal with the first 12 people that apply, or you can't run it at all
    That's also a big part of why I'd want the raid to be toned down. We have a lot of difficulties, i don't see why we can't have 1 or 2 difficulties that is doable with a suboptimal group.

  18. #38
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    After taking to a few uber players, the raid is designed for those guilds and players that complete r10s on a regular basics as many have joined the players counsel and requested content that suites them. In other words content that challenges them, you will need a dc/instakiller maybe 2 and most likely a tank and a good healer GOOD LUCK! I'm glad I don't want anything from the raid

  19. #39
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    The DM text gives some hints and help:

    1. (Dungeon Master): Not content with the death of Lucian Vaunt, the Forgewraiths now seek vengeance against the entire city. You must stop the angry spirits here in the Arcsteeel Foundry, before the Forgewraiths absorb more souls and grow stronger.

    2. (NPC): Mayne Jhaelian tells you, 'These creatures are much more powerful than the ones previous reported in the city.
    They tend to feed off each other. If you destroy one close to another, they join into a more powerful spirit. They also seem to build in power the longer their angry.
    If your seriously thinking about engaging these creatures I would suggest you split up the smallest ones first from their brothers and kill them quickly.'

    3. (NPC): Mayne Jhaelian tells you, 'I understand some of the Twelve tried necromancy. Apparently trying to control them had only limited success.
    If you bend their will for to long, they become enraged and increase in power.
    Turning them proved much more effective, hence my pressence here.'

    Split them up.
    They are much stronger then the quest ones.
    Over time, they get stronger if active.
    When splitting them up, attack the smallest first.
    Controling them with necromancy doesn't always work, they get stronger.
    Turning them works better.
    Speed is of the essence.
    Try not to die (lol), spawnscreen (if it works). The more deaths, the more Forgewraiths, they tend to feed off each other...


    Or you know, just YOLO it- omg why didnt you heal me, etc. Whatever works.

    It's not an easy raid, to be sure: The environment will get you killed, the lava floors coming and going, etc. I hate to see people get frustrated though, and talk of quitting or not having fun playing makes me sad.
    Last edited by Mindos; 05-28-2019 at 01:22 PM.


  20. #40
    Community Member Ughh's Avatar
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    Default Thth

    got our third completion on ARGO today. 2 completions tonight HARD is next
    https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...167&height=676
    Ughh ,Ughhfu, Ughhina , Ughhtoaster, Rleeermey, Rotund Shogun, Ughhella, Ughhette, Ughhalee, Ughhkilla, Ughhgodanotherone, plus way too many bank toons.
    "Take me to the Brig. I want to see the real Marines." Chesty Puller U.S.M.C.

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