Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36
  1. #1
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Pocket Pita Plane
    Posts
    2,118

    Default Is stealth, invisibility, etc. fixed?

    With the new Sharn expansion out, I've noticed that I can actually sneak a little better then before. And when my Invis Guard goes off, the mobs actually can't see me! And behave accordingly! I have also been able to be detected by a mob, and NOT have everyone else come running!

    It's funny at first, the mob that sorta detected me will follow me around in the dungeon. But not directly! Instead, it's like follow the leader exactly, first to behind this barrel, then to where I was next, then behind this corner... I actually am here to ask for help, how do I get back into stealth when I've got this little bo peep mob following me around while not actually agro'd on me?

    What's the exact technique? Because I am failing at it! What I end up doing is just killing the darn thing when we get far enough away from the rest of the mobs. I think I remember reading that you had to leave sneak, break line of sight, go back into sneak? But they just keep following my path still, so that's why I'm here.

    Help. Edit: I'm already in stealth the whole time they are following me.


  2. #2
    Community Member Kalapurka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Chile
    Posts
    42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    With the new Sharn expansion out, I've noticed that I can actually sneak a little better then before. And when my Invis Guard goes off, the mobs actually can't see me! And behave accordingly! I have also been able to be detected by a mob, and NOT have everyone else come running!

    It's funny at first, the mob that sorta detected me will follow me around in the dungeon. But not directly! Instead, it's like follow the leader exactly, first to behind this barrel, then to where I was next, then behind this corner... I actually am here to ask for help, how do I get back into stealth when I've got this little bo peep mob following me around while not actually agro'd on me?

    What's the exact technique? Because I am failing at it! What I end up doing is just killing the darn thing when we get far enough away from the rest of the mobs. I think I remember reading that you had to leave sneak, break line of sight, go back into sneak? But they just keep following my path still, so that's why I'm here.

    Help. Edit: I'm already in stealth the whole time they are following me.
    im sorry about this but pls, stop beating a dead horse stealth and invisibility is beyond broken at this point :c

  3. #3
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    What's the exact technique? Because I am failing at it! What I end up doing is just killing the darn thing when we get far enough away from the rest of the mobs. I think I remember reading that you had to leave sneak, break line of sight, go back into sneak? But they just keep following my path still, so that's why I'm here.

    Help. Edit: I'm already in stealth the whole time they are following me.
    I think that is the only technique. Breaking line of sight and going back into sneak to loose the mob's awareness of you has been broken for years now. Mobs have telepathy - once they are aware you are there, they will know where you've been, they don't yet know where you are going but by Gygax they will follow you forever and if you get close enough to other mobs they will telepathically communicate your existence to everyone within range... sometimes through walls, floors, and ceilings.

    And yes its a very dead, skeletal horse, as the devs have given zero indication that they have any desire to fix the issue. They are totally aware of it, they just want it this way.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
    Aelonwy - Wydavir - Metaluscious - Aertimys - Aelyrra - Kaelaria - Lunaura - Aelurawynn - Saurscha - Crystalorn - Aurvaeyn - Vaelyns - Wyllowynd

  4. #4
    Bounty Hunter
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    11,407

    Default

    It's working as intended in reaper according to the devs and won't be addressed. You can only play stealth in elite and below which of course is no challenge at all.

  5. #5
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5,922

    Default

    I agree to let stealth die.

    Devs don't care about people with that play style.

    It has been made abundantly clear.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    297

    Default

    My advice? Find a way to use mob stealth detection to your advantage... I'm talking huge advantage.

    I don't know how specifically to do that with stealth... but hopefully someone will.

    You see....as soon as players use a mechanic in a way that qualifies as an ex... treme boon to players... that'll get dev attention. Until then, as others have posted, dev position on Stealth via their ACTIONS (or lack thereof), not their words, is very clear.

  7. #7
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,417

    Default

    Advice: the only was I've been able to use stealth to actually stealth is to combine it with wings (aka: level 17 FvS). The moment you enter stealth, everything in line of sight of you will run to where you vanished in order to try and 'find' you, and so long as you remain in a specific range of them, they will continue to listen and spot and follow you regardless of your stealth scores. Haste is not enough of a speed boost to get away. However, going stealth then using a wings boost to get away ASAP does leave them searching where you first stealthed without following (usually, provided you keep moving away). I've been able to save CoS torch room wipes via stealth, and in shortman (2 man) runs I've used stealth to solo the torch room (re-enter stealth after opening each door, wing away to lose them, etc). WARNING: no matter how far away you go - even with wings - the moment you come out of stealth, EVERY enemy that at one point was looking for you WILL know where you are and they will come running! The only way I've been able to avoid the conga-line of enemies tracking me from out of sight when I come out of stealth is to wait 5-10 minutes for their aggro to reset. >_<

    I've mentioned before that there is a way to use the current stealth "mechanics" to your advantage, and it is briefly mentioned above. You can use stealth as a large range aggro magnet. It's more effective than intimidate. It groups every enemy around you, including casters and archers. I carry invis pots on my tank to help me tank via invis-grabbing mobs then intimidating when they're on me so even if they back off they will continue to attack me and not my party. On my casters when I'm soloing I use invis to group and CC enemies (drop a CC first, web, tentacles, disco balls, etc, then invis, and watch as they all run into the spell effect and essentially CC themselves).

  8. #8
    Community Member Wh070aa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,023

    Default

    If you stealth at the right spots with low enough score, you can pull mob aggro trough walls and stuff.

    Like if you are tanking, you should stealth to draw aggro first, since the detection range wile in stealth is bigger than if not in stealth.

    I also think there are some weird interactions with some gear pieces, or specific score thresholds that do that. I mean it's better than it was before where everything in dungeon aggroed to you trough doors, but it still happens, especially with reapers teleporting to you after spawning. As long as you can trigger the spawn, you should be able to aggro things from anywhere while stealthed.

  9. #9
    Community Member Valerianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    245

    Default

    do yourself a favor like i did to myself with sadness in my heart and…

    can't believe i'm saying this but…

    forget about stealth. it's broken and they know it and it will never get a fix. stealth is not consistently viable. one of the most iconic d&d archetipes, the stealth rogue, it's one of the most rolled toon by new players and they end up playing a couple of days and never again. (personal experience, guild related, none of the new rogue players keep on playing. only one exception: one we helped respec in mech) yes i know assassin is top tier dps but not as a lvl 1 - 5 first lifer new player who rolled a rogue to, duh, stealth, duh, go figure what were they thinking, meh, a rogue in stealth. what a weird idea. or?



    am i beating a dead horse? you bet, i'll beat it and if necessary i'll raise it as undead and i'll beat it again forever and ever. you know, heroic fantasy setting stuff. deal with it.
    Server: Cannith

    Guild Forum: La Santa Alleanza

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vryxnr View Post
    You can use stealth as a large range aggro magnet. It's more effective than intimidate. It groups every enemy around you, including casters and archers.
    Devs, is it your intention for stealth?

    "A LARGE RANGE AGGRO MAGNET."
    “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.
    Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness.
    Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wh070aa View Post

    the detection range while in stealth is bigger than if not in stealth.
    This might be the source of most broken stealth problem.
    “Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.
    Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness.
    Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

  12. #12
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5,922

    Default

    For those trying to get a better or fixed implementation, it might be helpful to consider SSG's history.

    They created a new agro system one update before their reaper release. Their goal with regards to stealth was to prevent it from being a means to skipping large chunks of content. They (hopefully) looked at making stealth play challenging, and decided that it was not worth the effort.

    The decision was already made not to support stealth.

    We had people like Lynnabel, telling us that they played a rogue 3x and there was no problem, but it's fairly obvious that this turned out to be incorrect, as they continued to go after stealth abilities. We have Cordovan going after stealth players, no attempt to communicate with players, and no attempt at all to deal with trolling of stealth players.

    We had people telling us that if we just gathered our comments and information, SSG would surely respond. This turned out to be false.

    When they eliminated stealth as a pre-requirement for assassinate, we had people telling us that surely they would quickly fix such a change that clearly invalidates the challenge and interesting play of a stealth build. This turned out to be false.

    SSG never had any interest in helping out stealth players. They were dishonest about what they were doing.


    When you post about how changes will make game play better for stealth, SSG is interested in killing off the build, not improving it. You are not a valued customer.


    They would rather bury their dirty laundry than wash it.

    Stop asking them to wash something that they have already thrown away.

    If nothing else, it will reduce trolling here on the forums.
    Last edited by nokowi; 05-26-2019 at 11:23 AM.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  13. #13
    Community Member Valerianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by draven1 View Post
    Devs, is it your intention for stealth?

    "A LARGE RANGE AGGRO MAGNET."


    it's working this way for a loooong time. in fact if a tank (or any non-stealth-speccd) wants instant aggro on a whole room and maybe beyond when stepping in, s\he should sneak in. not needed but try it for the lol of this WAI feature(?).
    Server: Cannith

    Guild Forum: La Santa Alleanza

  14. #14
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    3,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    It's working as intended in reaper according to the devs and won't be addressed. You can only play stealth in elite and below which of course is no challenge at all.
    Correction, stealth is working in Casual/Normal. Champions have a random chance to see through Stealth making them able to "Share" that information with their friends near them. It is also why Stealth doesn't work in Reaper which although WAI (according to the developers) isn't really the case. It's more accurate to say that the developers disabled the feature because they want the game to be "like every other MMO" which conversely isn't the way some players want to play it.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  15. #15
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5,922

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Correction, stealth is working in Casual/Normal. Champions have a random chance to see through Stealth making them able to "Share" that information with their friends near them. It is also why Stealth doesn't work in Reaper which although WAI (according to the developers) isn't really the case. It's more accurate to say that the developers disabled the feature because they want the game to be "like every other MMO" which conversely isn't the way some players want to play it.
    I agree with this. It was never really functional in elite after the agro update.

    They reduced the non-reaper experience to meet their reaper goals.

    The best use of stealth is to grab agro. For those with minimal investment that sneak by 1 group of mobs and have AoE, failing frequently can be a time saver. Stealth is great for minimal investment builds and/or builds that should not be sneaking in the first place.

    If anything epitomizes SSG design, it is their level of communication with players with regards to these changes, their inability to make common-sense changes, and their disregard for their players.

    Maybe your build will be up next for the chopping block, and you will finally learn that you are not valued by SSG. It won't matter how loyal a customer or fan you have been.
    Last edited by nokowi; 05-27-2019 at 11:57 AM.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,258

    Default

    Stealth as a means to avoid combat is probably never going to be supported, because the game IS combat - that's the source of 90% of the challenge designed into quests. And that challenge is what justifies the rewards, ie loot. Allowing a mechanic that can totally circumvent that challenge but still gets the same loot is imbalanced, and that's the problem with stealth.

    Stealth as a means to control combat - ie choosing your first target, controlling position, breaking briefly to heal, etc. might be more WAI, but that's never what I see people complaining about. They're almost always upset that they cant stealth past mobs and just skip them entirely, and that's probably an unfair expectation. Though that kind of tactical style of fighting might not be particularly useful in DDO either.

  17. #17
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Yorkshire Toxic Fringe Zone
    Posts
    6,337

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Stealth as a means to avoid combat is probably never going to be supported, because the game IS combat - that's the source of 90% of the challenge designed into quests. And that challenge is what justifies the rewards, ie loot. Allowing a mechanic that can totally circumvent that challenge but still gets the same loot is imbalanced, and that's the problem with stealth.

    Stealth as a means to control combat - ie choosing your first target, controlling position, breaking briefly to heal, etc. might be more WAI, but that's never what I see people complaining about. They're almost always upset that they cant stealth past mobs and just skip them entirely, and that's probably an unfair expectation. Though that kind of tactical style of fighting might not be particularly useful in DDO either.
    The subtlety bonus still exists. Clunky quest designs make it impossible to acheive in some quests, but that is not the same thing. Subtlety bonus exists, which means the game should be supporting it where the quest story/mechnical design otherwise allows.

    I would like it fixed again please. Along with throwing a dart at a barrel or wall to draw one or two mobs away with a listen check. It made stealth viable, in the situations where it was viable. As it is right now, its basically not viable for anything except specifically assassinating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge
    Quote Originally Posted by Amundir View Post
    My words are great. Even out of context.

  18. #18
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,306

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Stealth as a means to avoid combat is probably never going to be supported, because the game IS combat - that's the source of 90% of the challenge designed into quests. And that challenge is what justifies the rewards, ie loot. Allowing a mechanic that can totally circumvent that challenge but still gets the same loot is imbalanced, and that's the problem with stealth.

    Stealth as a means to control combat - ie choosing your first target, controlling position, breaking briefly to heal, etc. might be more WAI, but that's never what I see people complaining about. They're almost always upset that they cant stealth past mobs and just skip them entirely, and that's probably an unfair expectation. Though that kind of tactical style of fighting might not be particularly useful in DDO either.
    I see this a lot. The concept the I'm going to stealth past everything and just get the loot. But, as an assassin (yep, its my main), at a difficulty setting where I would find sneaking past mobs to be actually faster than killing them, I can't solo the end boss. So what is the point? I could sneak past the trash and die in the end fight?

    Now, I realize not all stealth builds are even rogues, let alone assassins. But I'll outline a couple of the issues:

    1. reapers will tell every mob exactly where I am. All of them.
    2. spiders, oozes etc with tremorsense also tell every mob where I am. For now I'll leave the fact that most of the time I'm not even touching the ground out of it. These mobs should not be communicating my location.
    3. After moving around a corner (i.e. breaking line of sight) I should be able to sneak again and not have the mobs know my exact location. Yes, they should come look around the corner and be on alert. But with a 144/144 they should not find me quickly. And the archers should not be locked on me all the time.
    4. stealth draws more agro than intimidate.

    I have found places where it does function. I am able to sneak in and assassinate and sneak out. Wait 12 seconds and repeat. Note, how slow that really is before reading further.

    In groups it works pretty good. But then its not much different than any other character avoiding line of sight until a tank has agro and then walking up to the fight. Until you take an action, the mobs mostly ignore them too.
    Should a reaper see me? I think Death itself should have to make a spot check when I'm rolling up behind him. -- Krimsonrane

  19. #19
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,470

    Default

    Stealth isn’t really a “playstyle” in DDO, it’s a set of two skill that require a low opportunity cost to acquire. It’s situationally useful to get by some mobs when you have a way of ditching them after. But it’s not going to be an effective primary strategy. What set of two skills are? It’s Probably more useful than swim, haggle, tumble, etc.

    Everyone gets that the “swim cleric” is a joke, and no one thinks you should be able to diplo your way out of most fights, but with “stealth” people start thinking that it should be the solution to big chucks of the game on the hardest settings.

    I get that stealth can be a lot of fun in the right game, but DDO has never been that game no matter how much rose tint people keep putting on those nostalgia glasses.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  20. #20
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5,922

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Stealth isn’t really a “playstyle” in DDO, it’s a set of two skill that require a low opportunity cost to acquire. It’s situationally useful to get by some mobs when you have a way of ditching them after. But it’s not going to be an effective primary strategy. What set of two skills are? It’s Probably more useful than swim, haggle, tumble, etc.

    Everyone gets that the “swim cleric” is a joke, and no one thinks you should be able to diplo your way out of most fights, but with “stealth” people start thinking that it should be the solution to big chucks of the game on the hardest settings.

    I get that stealth can be a lot of fun in the right game, but DDO has never been that game no matter how much rose tint people keep putting on those nostalgia glasses.

    Tactical stealth had unique characteristics of pace, timing, slow movement, and predicting in advance what your party members were going to do. Even when the difficulty was not top notch, the real-time decisions you made were very important to your performance, even if your performance did not matter to the success of the team. Predicting the teams actions well in advance made monotonous quests interesting. This was indeed a unique and skilled play style, having nothing to do with sneaking by large chunks of content.

    Only the trivialization of the game to the point where all quests were run to the end as fast as possible (beginning of class passes without content difficulty increase) invalidated tactical play. Non moving mobs, immunity, removal of stealth as a pre-req to assassinate, and auto detection remove the skill cap in reaper.


    The loss of stealth as a play style is the loss of real time decisions that matter. You got a taste of this in reaper for non-stealth builds, and if the skilled players now had to go back to non-reaper they would be complaining just as loudly as stealth players did about skill and tactics removal from the game.

    Having you speak for stealth players is not appreciated. I learned much more than your characterizations within the first one month of play, so I'm curious about your qualifications and expertise for speaking for stealth players.
    Last edited by nokowi; 05-27-2019 at 02:40 PM.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload