Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 61 to 73 of 73
  1. #61
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post

    Anyhow I am ok with the raid difficulty the way it is now that I understand there are simple mechanics to mitigate the issues, but that doesn't make the feedback on the #s any less reasonable. I think Steel's response drops the hint there is something that can be done. The "git gud" comments in this thread were non-constructive since that was never the issue. Instead sharing Steel's comments was helpful because it makes it clear it's a matter of overcoming the knowledge barrier not the damage. Fair enough, it was a good discussion to have and learn from, but there is no need to accuse people commenting as wanting participation trophies because the damage #s clearly seemed off for LN. Especially from someone that once said ravenloft staircases were too challenging (and I only remember because of how funny I found the comment at the time- and am only commenting on it because you threw some shade).

    But no one is sharing what those simple mechanics might be. At least I am not seeing through the "git GUD" noise people are spewing. I still have not seen an answer as to why the top level lever/crystal combos are not in order. I mean a good story reason for this.

    Number 1 for me is story. Give me a good reason with in the story for why things are. Why are we here in this place. Why are we the one resetting stuff, where are the people are were taking care of this etc etc.

    When there is something that does not make sense in the story it is very hard for me to let it go.

    Also I hate repetition in a raid. Baba is a good example. You do the entire raid twice, just a little harder the second time, because of added mobs. Boring. RSO, you have to do the same puzzle several times. boring. Also the lightning mechanic in there feels gimicky.

    In Too hot too handle it is more of the same repeating. Just harder each time, with more mobs and more damage, not a good story.

    oh well at least I am enjoying the quests
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
    BoloGrubb / DJGrubb / Gijo

  2. #62
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Based on everything I've seen the feedback on the raid damage #s is spot on for LN, but there are things we all didn't fully understand. The #s definitely seemed out of whack to me for Normal as a long time PUG raider. What we didn't know and something "git gud" comments don't help with is that there is specific quest knowledge that makes the raid much easier to complete.

    Anyhow I am ok with the raid difficulty the way it is now that I understand there are simple mechanics to mitigate the issues, but that doesn't make the feedback on the #s any less reasonable.
    If you didn't understand that it wasn't due to lack of telling you. These are just excepts from the first 8 posts in the thread. People continue to repeat these things over and over if you go read it again....you just didn't listen. All we have been saying from the very start is that the damage isn't the challenge and the learning curve for the mechanics are. Digging in and taking a stance without comprehending what people are trying to tell you often causes problems and lack of understanding. Basically, what Steel told you we've been saying from the start...so calm down and go learn the tactics to succeed instead of trying to bull rush a completion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    It's going to take conversations about strategizing, planning, trying new tactics, failing, trying something else, and failing some more.
    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    IMO, to complete any raid you should have to learn to master the mechanics of the raid. Are you swinging the sunsword on Strahd, can you keep the red scarecrows of the puzzle, did you get all the runes to debuff Sor'jek, are you keeping the beholders off the pups so they can do DPS on momma? This raid took these elements to a further level to ensure proper execution at every step of the raid or your will be punished...that is a good thing. Raiding is not the same as questing..it should be done with precision and a plan and should not just be able to brute force it (see Fire Peaks).
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    This 100%. The mechanics should stay just as challenging as they are now - it encourages team-play and communication which DDO has lacked for some time now. Reaper brought back a certain element of strategic party composition, but this raid brings back the need for efficient communication. If you are incapable of efficiently communicating with your raid group, you shouldn't be able to complete this raid. I can only hope that the second raid is just as technically challenging - if not more so.

    And in my original post I didn't mean to insinuate that having uber-completionist-max-reaper-point-toons is required to run normal. Rather I meant to highlight that we were incapable of completing normal even on well-geared characters without multiple attempts utilizing new methods.
    ZERG
    Whynnd | Xantroos | Cyridven | Justys

  3. #63
    Bounty Hunter
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    11,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    If you didn't understand that it wasn't due to lack of telling you. These are just excepts from the first 8 posts in the thread. People continue to repeat these things over and over if you go read it again....you just didn't listen. All we have been saying from the very start is that the damage isn't the challenge and the learning curve for the mechanics are. Digging in and taking a stance without comprehending what people are trying to tell you often causes problems and lack of understanding. Basically, what Steel told you we've been saying from the start...so calm down and go learn the tactics to succeed instead of trying to bull rush a completion.
    There is a difference between knowledge and strategy. Semantics, but on the other hand steels comments and a few other comments made it clear to me it’s a knowledge issue

    you don’t need to beat a dead horse on that one. I get it now.

  4. #64
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    368

    Default

    I've been trying to say this the entire time. Thanks Shadow_Jumper for linking those. I think everyone is on the same page now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    This raid takes some serious communication, and I really have to say thank you for that.
    [...]
    And the chance of completion shouldn't to be up to RNG either. It should be totally dependent on whether or not the party is able to do the right thing, at the right time, with the right pace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    ...but this raid brings back the need for efficient communication.

    And in my original post I didn't mean to insinuate that having uber-completionist-max-reaper-point-toons is required to run normal. Rather I meant to highlight that we were incapable of completing normal even on well-geared characters without multiple attempts utilizing new methods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    A lot of people...are running this raid once or twice and coming to the conclusion that it's too difficult....It is a brutally difficult raid, but it has little to do with gear selection, past lives, reaper points, or tomes.
    [...]
    I don't want this raid to be exclusive to static groups or guild runs, nor do I want it to be reserved for the 1% who have triple-everything-completionist-toons with maxed out reaper trees... But I do think that this raid...should be reserved for groups of players that are willing to develop and communicate effective strategies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    Players should just give it some time to pan out, come up with new tactics, and communicate better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I agree that Normal should absolutely be within reach of the PUG scene, but I'd argue...that Normal is absolutely within reach of a PUG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    It's a raid, not a solo quest. It requires cooperation as it should.

    ...it just has a more extreme learning curve than previous content. Give it time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    The developers have stated multiple times that they're keeping a close eye on completion numbers across all servers... I'm holding on to the notion that, given time, players will adapt to and overcome this challenge as they have in the past.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I have absolutely no doubt that PUGs will be capable of running this raid in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I've already stated here and on another thread that if this raid turns out to be too difficult for the majority of players to run even on normal, then I'm not entirely opposed to reducing the difficulty. But 1 week in? Really? No.

    I really honestly believe that PUGs will be capable of running this raid once people start figuring out the mechanics behind it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    ...the strength of your character is not what's stopping people from running this raid. The lockout is caused by players unwilling - or not used to - communicating and strategizing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    It was so refreshing to finally have a challenge that couldn't be overcome simply by the number of PLs or Reaper Points someone has. This raid is an excellent equalizer. It relies on communication rather than elitism. I believe that players will be able to PUG this raid on normal
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I'm sure if players are really so daft that they can't figure it out after a few weeks, the developers will tone it down to allow people to run through blindfolded. Until then, keep trying.
    Last edited by Clemeit; 05-23-2019 at 02:46 PM.
    I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.

  5. #65
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    There is a difference between knowledge and strategy. Semantics, but on the other hand steels comments and a few other comments made it clear to me it’s a knowledge issue

    you don’t need to beat a dead horse on that one. I get it now.
    I feel like you are the one beating a dead horse. Multiple people have told you that the raid requires teamwork, some quick thinking, and good tactics....all things your previous statements seem to point towards you saying is a good thing for a new raid, but you continually just say that "its a knowledge issue, it's bad". I feel like that's a good thing. It's a shift from the KT meta of endless red named beat downs, and very little action.

    Please, just run the raid once or twice. If your runs are anything like ours were, expect some failures. However this raid has several things that make it decent on that front imo. It's very short, meaning that if you fail, it's not hard to get right back to where you were and change some things. Identify why you failed, then brainstorm some ideas to get over that challenge. Then reattempt the raid with those changes. That's what challenging raiding is all about. I applaud the devs for making a challenging raid that doesn't kill your evening with 2 attempts that require you to beat down 4 red name bosses before you get to the litmus test.

    You are the only one bringing semantics into this discussion. Bad strategy can be caused by numerous things, lack of knowledge is one of them, but it's not the only reason. This raid is being failed due to player's having to work together, and due to how fast the raid can change. Its very similar to LHoX and MoD in that aspect. Arguing that the devs are bad because they didn't properly communicate what we needed to know for this raid is bad feedback that is ignoring the essential part where the players should be the ones to develop the strategy. This raid would be less fun if the devs spoon-fed us the answers.

    If they make this raid easier to complete it is going to be a stupidly easy thread farm, and will probably take sub 10 minutes. I don't think that's what the devs are hoping will be the outcome for the only Tier 4 raid in the game.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  6. #66
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post

    You are the only one bringing semantics into this discussion.
    I think he meant my comment haha. Based upon Steels comments there's probably some gimmick mechanic that we're missing that makes handling trash way easier. Has anyone tried water buckets?

  7. #67

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    Has anyone tried water buckets?
    "If only we had a wheelbarrow, that would be something."
    Brenna, Tzanna, and Tzinna Wavekin
    The Dancing Rogues of Argonnessen
    Ascent

  8. #68
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SemanticMirage View Post
    I think he meant my comment haha. Based upon Steels comments there's probably some gimmick mechanic that we're missing that makes handling trash way easier. Has anyone tried water buckets?
    I think gimmick is a little misleading. Kind of implies that it’s more of a cheat. Solve the puzzles, prevent the mobs from lemming themselves off of the edge, keep doom skulls under control, dps boss. How groups complete the required tasks is up to them.

    Would be kinda cool to have a ranged weapon called “The Fire Hose”
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 05-23-2019 at 03:55 PM.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  9. #69
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,148

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    I think gimmick is a little misleading. Kind of implies that it’s more of a cheat. Solve the puzzles, prevent the mobs from lemming themselves off of the edge, keep doom skulls under control, dps boss. How groups complete the required tasks is up to them.

    Would be kinda cool to have a ranged weapon called “The Fire Hose”
    "Lemming" - what great word. Such an oldschool game, made me laugh.

    "The Fire Hose" - great name for a ranged build designed for THTH.
    Mothergoose - Kardinal - Bunks

  10. #70
    Bounty Hunter
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    11,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    I feel like you are the one beating a dead horse. Multiple people have told you that the raid requires teamwork, some quick thinking, and good tactics....all things your previous statements seem to point towards you saying is a good thing for a new raid, but you continually just say that "its a knowledge issue, it's bad". I feel like that's a good thing. It's a shift from the KT meta of endless red named beat downs, and very little action.

    Please, just run the raid once or twice. If your runs are anything like ours were, expect some failures. However this raid has several things that make it decent on that front imo. It's very short, meaning that if you fail, it's not hard to get right back to where you were and change some things. Identify why you failed, then brainstorm some ideas to get over that challenge. Then reattempt the raid with those changes. That's what challenging raiding is all about. I applaud the devs for making a challenging raid that doesn't kill your evening with 2 attempts that require you to beat down 4 red name bosses before you get to the litmus test.

    You are the only one bringing semantics into this discussion. Bad strategy can be caused by numerous things, lack of knowledge is one of them, but it's not the only reason. This raid is being failed due to player's having to work together, and due to how fast the raid can change. Its very similar to LHoX and MoD in that aspect. Arguing that the devs are bad because they didn't properly communicate what we needed to know for this raid is bad feedback that is ignoring the essential part where the players should be the ones to develop the strategy. This raid would be less fun if the devs spoon-fed us the answers.

    If they make this raid easier to complete it is going to be a stupidly easy thread farm, and will probably take sub 10 minutes. I don't think that's what the devs are hoping will be the outcome for the only Tier 4 raid in the game.
    Since you keep bringing it up by definition you are beating the dead horse - I am only responding because you are misrepresenting what I said (for example show me where I asked for spoon feeding). Knowledge allows you to complete the quest faster and avoid the problem groups new to the raid are encountering. Strategy and applying knowledge are two different things in my view. I never said the devs were bad for not bringing it up, I merely said I wish they dev mentioned that point on the official forum rather than some site I didn't even know about. I never asked for spoon feeding and that isn't what steel provided. But it gave me enough information to understand the issue is knowledge gap rather than damage #s out of alignment for the difficulty

    Hox is an example of a raid based on knowledge. Without knowledge it's a pita (well not know with inflation - but once). With knowledge it's an auto-complete. People will call it strategy but to me it's solely knowledge. To explain myself further, it doesn't matter how well you communicate or strategize if you don't what to do - knowledge issue. The key is knowing what to do and only then can you apply strategies and communicate in a way that will work.

    My concern was always about accessibility of the raid on LN, the lowest difficulty in the game. Once Steel confirmed the raid could be completed by 10 underpowered characters that cleared up the confusion about possible issues with #s on the LN difficulty setting. Enough said. You keep making the comment about asking for lowering difficulty when my concern has always been accessibility and wanting a larger group of characters running the raid because it gives me more chance to join raids and it is a better experience for my casual friends. Steel's comments cleared up the accessibility issue - it's not a damage scaling issue.

    Now if you want to continue the discussion I am fine with it, but please stop misrepresenting me.
    Last edited by slarden; 05-23-2019 at 06:43 PM.

  11. #71
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Right behind you
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Steel's comments cleared up the accessibility issue - it's not a damage scaling issue.
    Well I'm glad Steel cleared it up for you. It's not like that's what everyone else was saying in this thread this entire time or anything (see above post with 12 references to myself, let alone everyone else).
    I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.

  12. #72
    Bounty Hunter
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    11,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    Well I'm glad Steel cleared it up for you. It's not like that's what everyone else was saying in this thread this entire time or anything (see above post with 12 references to myself, let alone everyone else).
    That is accurate. The git gud talk didn't help.
    Last edited by slarden; 05-23-2019 at 09:19 PM.

  13. #73
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    343

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Based on everything I've seen the feedback on the raid damage #s is spot on for LN, but there are things we all didn't fully understand. The #s definitely seemed out of whack to me for Normal as a long time PUG raider. What we didn't know and something "git gud" comments don't help with is that there is specific quest knowledge that makes the raid much easier to complete.

    Anyhow I am ok with the raid difficulty the way it is now that I understand there are simple mechanics to mitigate the issues, but that doesn't make the feedback on the #s any less reasonable. I think Steel's response drops the hint there is something that can be done. The "git gud" comments in this thread were non-constructive since that was never the issue. Instead sharing Steel's comments was helpful because it makes it clear it's a matter of overcoming the knowledge barrier not the damage. Fair enough, it was a good discussion to have and learn from, but there is no need to accuse people commenting as wanting participation trophies because the damage #s clearly seemed off for LN. Especially from someone that once said ravenloft staircases were too challenging (and I only remember because of how funny I found the comment at the time- and am only commenting on it because you threw some shade).
    No worries, haha. I absolutely suck at the staircases in that place; you got me there. haha Most of the Mario jumping stuff I'm bad at. I just accept there are some parts of the game too annoying for me to want to play all the time; lots of other stuff to do. (Like another poster said, I'll join in progress and try not to pike a Pit run, but I never start one of those myself.) Could be just I, but I don't really expect to complete absolutely everything in the game and I'm OK with that. Just glad to hear Sharn isn't turning into another Mines of Teth level of unpleasantness. :-)

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload