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  1. #41

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Does anyone know what the base favor is? My guess is 10.
    Correct, it's 10.
    I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.

  3. #43

  4. #44
    Community Member SmashBang's Avatar
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    I dont mind challenge. My guild communicates well, but we are all not uber completionist with wings.

    Question about the levers, can anyone explain why the 6 crystals do not match order with the levers? Isn't this a power plant of some sort? The lever crystal relationsip simply does not make sense, and I think it is poor design if it is just to make things more complicated. Give me a reason for this so I can get past this one mechanic.

  5. #45
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmashBang View Post
    I dont mind challenge. My guild communicates well, but we are all not uber completionist with wings.

    Question about the levers, can anyone explain why the 6 crystals do not match order with the levers? Isn't this a power plant of some sort? The lever crystal relationsip simply does not make sense, and I think it is poor design if it is just to make things more complicated. Give me a reason for this so I can get past this one mechanic.
    I believe the levers not matching up with the Crystal's is intended. Basically an extra level of thinking, maybe to increase the difficulty of the puzzle just a touch.

    I'm not a fan of the puzzle, but only because I'm color blind. Was hoping for symbols, but at least it is a raid, I can always have someone else do it.
    Mothergoose - Kardinal - Bunks

  6. #46
    Community Member SmashBang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    I believe the levers not matching up with the Crystal's is intended. Basically an extra level of thinking, maybe to increase the difficulty of the puzzle just a touch.

    I'm not a fan of the puzzle, but only because I'm color blind. Was hoping for symbols, but at least it is a raid, I can always have someone else do it.
    I think it is a completely unnecessary level of confusion unless there is another reason for it. A power plant would never be built that way for safety reasons. So it makes no sense here

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Do you not understand that extreme challenge isn't intended to be legendary normal. How is that hard to understand?
    Extreme challenge? Why? Cause you weren't able to complete it your first two times through? I'm not sure how many different ways I can say "it doesn't require good characters, just good communication and the right strategy." If you're not willing to formulate strategies and communicate them with your party members, perhaps you shouldn't be running the hardest raid in the game.

    I'm sure if players are really so daft that they can't figure it out after a few weeks, the developers will tone it down to allow people to run through blindfolded. Until then, keep trying.
    Last edited by Clemeit; 05-22-2019 at 06:30 PM.
    I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.

  8. #48
    Community Member MrTrolol's Avatar
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    Some people in this thread seem to be popping in the raid, expecting themselves to wipe the floor with the raid and go onto LH, it's the highest difficulty tier raid so far, even on LN, expect a difficult challenge.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I don't think you understand how PUG raids work. If we fail many will drop group as soon as the raid fails - very few will be willing to figure it out. Some casual players that tried to raid will conclude they were too weak and caused the raid to fail on Normal and may never raid again. You need a reasonable sized core group to start with to have enough people that will stick with you while you figure it out.

    The population is very small compared to what it was at peak and even a few years ago.

    If it's as easy as you say I challenge you to roll up a first life character on Sarlona and lead a pug raid to completion without your guildies carrying you. Sign me up so I can learn from your great communication and strategy. Otherwise I call BS.
    I'm sorry we don't agree on this. I'm happy that there's finally some end-game challenge, and so are plenty of other people. If you watched the live-stream today, you'd know that the developers are similarly content with the state of the raid for the moment. I'm sorry you don't agree. Of course, not everyone is happy that they can't stroll through normal like in the past. I can understand this as well. I myself wasn't always into raiding, but I saw it as something to strive towards. I worked on my character, joined a guild, made connections, and learned the ropes. Sometimes it's easier to shy away from a challenge then to reevaluate what you're doing wrong and try something new. DDO isn't a hard-core game, that's true, but some people are bored of its lack of technical challenges. This raid fixes that. Should every raid be like that? No, perhaps not. But that's not the case.

    The thing is, I've already completed this raid both in-guild and with a PUG. Nobody was carrying anybody - that's the beauty of it, and I'm sorry you can't understand this: it's a team effort, which is exactly what a raid should be. If you don't care much for team efforts, go solo a quest, or find a good single-player game.

    When you've completed the raid a few times I think you'll understand why I honestly believe it's PUG-friendly. I've already been there and done that - it's your turn to figure it out. Until then, we've nothing more to discuss. I wish you luck.
    I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.

  10. #50
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    I have only been able to run this a few times and from my perspective its brutal and my first time i was asking myself "was this on normal". I was a bit upset in the difficulty but i took a bit of time to think about it and the more i looked into the raid the more i appreciated it. I think we need to give it more time before really making any big changes to the raid. Afterall the devs wanted this raid to be end game mode and not to mention a tier IV raid. Once people starting posting up guides others will follow and learn, i have watched a few succesful raid viedoes now including one on hard and i must say the amount of communication/teamwork is impressive and the groups sheer relief of completing the raid was rewarding.

    I think its been a while since i last experienced something as challenging as this, we just need time to adapt and learn.

  11. #51
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I wanted to take a moment to reflect on my appreciation of the new raid. It's awesome. Like, reinvigorating, heart-pounding, palms are sweaty, knees weak arms are hea-...

    ~~~

    Baba was good, Strahd was better, Killing Time required even more strategizing, and THTH is just top-notch. We jump in there on normal - on toons that have been crushing r10 for a while now - and we got absolutely destroyed. Like boss man mopped the floor with us. After the initial shock we picked ourselves up by the bootstraps and dove in again. We were slashing and shooting and... puzzle-ing? It went so smoothly! No, not really. We got wrecked.
    Have to agree for the most part. I prefer raids that are short and to the point. Much better than the snooze-fests that are LShroud/KT in my opinion.

    Have to disagree though, Strahd has been by far my favorite raid ever released

    Final side note; what was your guys' completion time? We got wrecked about the first 5 times we tried, but finally got everything to go as we planned and ran it in 12 mins.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 05-22-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    I'm sorry we don't agree on this. I'm happy that there's finally some end-game challenge, and so are plenty of other people. If you watched the live-stream today, you'd know that the developers are similarly content with the state of the raid for the moment. I'm sorry you don't agree. Of course, not everyone is happy that they can't stroll through normal like in the past. I can understand this as well. I myself wasn't always into raiding, but I saw it as something to strive towards. I worked on my character, joined a guild, made connections, and learned the ropes. Sometimes it's easier to shy away from a challenge then to reevaluate what you're doing wrong and try something new. DDO isn't a hard-core game, that's true, but some people are bored of its lack of technical challenges. This raid fixes that. Should every raid be like that? No, perhaps not. But that's not the case.

    The thing is, I've already completed this raid both in-guild and with a PUG. Nobody was carrying anybody - that's the beauty of it, and I'm sorry you can't understand this: it's a team effort, which is exactly what a raid should be. If you don't care much for team efforts, go solo a quest, or find a good single-player game.

    When you've completed the raid a few times I think you'll understand why I honestly believe it's PUG-friendly. I've already been there and done that - it's your turn to figure it out. Until then, we've nothing more to discuss. I wish you luck.
    It could be there is some trick to making this easier and if so there will likely be many completions over the upcoming weekend. I don't consider those things challenge but rather gimmicks that don't add much.
    You like to throw alot of shade in your comments, but this has nothing to do with my individual game play - I've accomplished everything I can in this game including being part of many first-time Sarlona raid completions on the most difficult setting. As I said the issue is pugging raids in an era of low player populations with wide variation in player power. It doesn't lend itself well to figuring out raids with those kind of damage #s.

    Time will tell - I was personally disappointed when they nerfed epic elite back when motu came out, but then again that was the most difficult setting not the easiest setting. We are arguing about the EASIEST setting and my argument is more about making the raid accessible to a larger group of players. I have 3 winged characters and hundreds of lifes and not in need of sympathy. However, I like raids that are accessible for more players because it means more opportunity to raid for all my alts and a better raid experience for some of my more casual friends.

  13. #53
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    The mechanics in THTH are not mind bendingly difficulty by any means. The puzzles themselves aren't that bad, once you do a puzzle once you can do it a million times. Pulling the 10 levers on the bottom floor is just repetition of the same thing 10 times. Pull left lever right lever middle lever super easy.

    The issue I have with the raid isn't the fire dot but rather how obnoxiously difficult it is to actually try to kill the trash forgewraiths that spawn on anything but a DC caster. Due to the wraiths being undead and floaty very few types of CC actually work on them. This leads to parties essentially requiring a boat load of DC casters w/ frog, undeath to death, hurl etc. to take care of the trash. This coupled with large health pools and the odd dodgy movement the wraiths have in melee range make DPS-ing trash rather difficult.

    I really wish they had done something like they did with the wisps in Baba. Wisps in general are not stunnable or trippable but you can dire charge and stunning blow and trip em just in Baba. This makes the handling the mobs become less of a, oh **** we need the dc caster to take out the mobs, but rather lets players across different builds handle the trash accordingly. If you made the forgewraiths in THTH stunnable/affected by some more CC I doubt the raid would require much nerfing on the numbers front.

    Maybe it would make it too easy IDK, but I don't think that 90% of builds losing their ability to deal with the trash is too fun. Note this is only on LN, once you get to LH or higher I'd assume trying to DPS forgewraiths, unless they're jaded or something. would be more or less pointless further pushing the requirements of having a load of DC insta kills.

  14. #54
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Time will tell - I was personally disappointed when they nerfed epic elite back when motu came out, but then again that was the most difficult setting not the easiest setting. We are arguing about the EASIEST setting and my argument is more about making the raid accessible to a larger group of players. I have 3 winged characters and hundreds of lifes and not in need of sympathy. However, I like raids that are accessible for more players because it means more opportunity to raid for all my alts and a better raid experience for some of my more casual friends.
    The devs have already stated that they are keeping an eye on it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We have been keeping a close eye on the community's feedback regarding the difficulty of the new raid, and have done data work to look at completion numbers and difficulty, and we are generally feeling positive about the state of the raid at the moment. We are continuing to listen to your feedback, though, and will endeavor to find the right difficulty balance if needed. We are also waiting a bit to see how things go as players learn the raid and gear themselves up with expansion items.
    Also, they were able to complete THTH with 10 first life toons:




    From my own experience in the raid, I have no reason to not believe that;
    a) Steel is misleading in any way (though I can understand the doubts)
    b) Most of the failures from this raid are due to poor strategy
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    The devs have already stated that they are keeping an eye on it:



    Also, they were able to complete THTH with 10 first life toons:




    From my own experience in the raid, I have no reason to not believe that;
    a) Steel is misleading in any way (though I can understand the doubts)
    b) Most of the failures from this raid are due to poor strategy
    This is interesting. So this tells me there are some tricks to the raid and it's simply a matter of learning those tricks. It's not a strategy issue it's a knowledge issue and once known it will be a super fast thing. Fair enough - but not all that exciting of a raid. Thanks for sharing.
    Last edited by slarden; 05-22-2019 at 11:34 PM.

  16. #56
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    This is interesting. So this tells me there are some tricks to the raid and it's simply a matter of learning those tricks. It's not a strategy issue it's a knowledge issue and once known it will be snooze-fest. Fair enough, but not really all that clever from a raid design perspective.
    I'd disagree slightly with your statement. Is bad strategy lack of knowledge? Maybe, but I think it's a more a failure to overcome obstacles with countermeasures when faced with challenge.

    IMO lack of knowledge as you describe it is more:
    Lever A completes the raid, Lever B fails the raidd, and you pull Lever B, because you have no way to know which lever does what.

    Simply knowing the mechanics (ie Lever A completes the raid and it will be known as snooze-fest forever more) is one thing, completing the required mechanics is another. I don't think this raid is that simple. If anything it reminds me more of LHoX; where its very "easy" but one simple mistake (mess up a puzzle, loose track of mobs, etc) leads to a raid wipe. Players have to work together, and have to think on their feet. However, as Steel pointed out, the relative build strength isn't holding anyone back from completing this raid on LN.

    -P.S. Funny side note; we completed this raid LN in 12:22, and got 25 threads for our effort. I continually question the reasons that the devs removed Reaper difficulty from LHoX for "rewards being too easy" and for the abysmal lack of threads in the raid.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 05-22-2019 at 11:49 PM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    I'd disagree slightly with your statement. Is bad strategy lack of knowledge? Maybe, but I think it's a more a failure to overcome obstacles with countermeasures when faced with challenge.

    IMO lack of knowledge as you describe it is more:
    Lever A completes the raid, Lever B fails the raidd, and you pull Lever B, because you have no way to know which lever does what.

    Simply knowing the mechanics (ie Lever A completes the raid and it will be known as snooze-fest forever more) is one thing, completing the required mechanics is another. I don't think this raid is that simple. If anything it reminds me more of LHoX; where its very "easy" but one simple mistake (mess up a puzzle, loose track of mobs, etc) leads to a raid wipe. Players have to work together, and have to think on their feet. However, as Steel pointed out, the relative build strength isn't holding anyone back from completing this raid on LN.
    To me LHox is strictly knowledge. There is a best way to complete that raid and if you follow that pattern it's an easy auto complete. MOD is more dynamic so there was much more strategy and thinking on your feet. I don't know this raid enough yet to make any conclusions, but I appreciate you sharing steel's comments. It's a shame he doesn't share this type of info on the forums.

  18. #58
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    To me LHox is strictly knowledge. There is a best way to complete that raid and if you follow that pattern it's an easy auto complete. MOD is more dynamic so there was much more strategy and thinking on your feet. I don't know this raid enough yet to make any conclusions, but I appreciate you sharing steel's comments. It's a shame he doesn't share this type of info on the forums.
    I don't think the devs define "best way"

    Most of the tactics evolve; it took something like 4-6 months for players to find what is considered now the "best way" to complete the card phase of CoS. I doubt the devs have a "this is the exact way it can be run, and there's never going to be another way". Give it time, lets see what we players come up with, that's the challenge I enjoy.

    And as was already stated previously;

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    The thing is, I've already completed this raid both in-guild and with a PUG. Nobody was carrying anybody - that's the beauty of it, and I'm sorry you can't understand this: it's a team effort, which is exactly what a raid should be. If you don't care much for team efforts, go solo a quest, or find a good single-player game.
    This is a dynamic raid that requires a lot of quick thinking. Multiple people have tried pointing that out. If they were going to make this raid easier on LN, I'd imagine they just remove the doom skulls or the forge wraiths. But at that point you are removing what makes the raid...the raid.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 05-23-2019 at 12:25 AM.
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    Glad to hear the new raid is tough on tactics and not a bloated mob Hit Point-fest.

    All raids were tough at first and were supposed to be. Take any over-level high-geared group today and they will still fail VON 5/6, Shroud, HOX, etc. if a bunch of knuckleheads run around not listening or working together-even on Normal difficulty level.

    As a member of a very small Guild I have no expectation the Game should hand me Raid completions. I understand Raids are top-end content (especially a new Tier 4) and if I want a completion I will ask to join a Raid Group of players from a larger Guild who work at this and I will darn well listen to what they have to say and do as I am told.

    I do not expect to be handed a Participation Trophy for every Raid in this Game. Any level of competence I can claim to possess came from failing and learning- NOT from whining to have the content made easier.

    If the heavy raiding players are giving this a thumbs up on design then I say SSG should refuse efforts by others to nerf the difficulty.
    Last edited by Sho-sa; 05-23-2019 at 05:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho-sa View Post
    Glad to hear the new raid is tough on tactics and not a bloated mob Hit Point-fest.

    All raids were tough at first and were supposed to be. Take any over-level high-geared group today and they will still fail VON 5/6, Shroud, HOX, etc. if a bunch of knuckleheads run around not listening or working together-even on Normal difficulty level.

    As a member of a very small Guild I have no expectation the Game should hand me Raid completions. I understand Raids are top-end content (especially a new Tier 4) and if I want a completion I will ask to join a Raid Group of players from a larger Guild who work at this and I will darn well listen to what they have to say and do as I am told.

    I do not expect to be handed a Participation Trophy for every Raid in this Game. Any level of competence I can claim to possess came from failing and learning- NOT from whining to have the content made easier.

    If the heavy raiding players are giving this a thumbs up on design then I say SSG should refuse efforts by others to nerf the difficulty.
    Based on everything I've seen the feedback on the raid damage #s is spot on for LN, but there are things we all didn't fully understand. The #s definitely seemed out of whack to me for Normal as a long time PUG raider. What we didn't know and something "git gud" comments don't help with is that there is specific quest knowledge that makes the raid much easier to complete.

    Anyhow I am ok with the raid difficulty the way it is now that I understand there are simple mechanics to mitigate the issues, but that doesn't make the feedback on the #s any less reasonable. I think Steel's response drops the hint there is something that can be done. The "git gud" comments in this thread were non-constructive since that was never the issue. Instead sharing Steel's comments was helpful because it makes it clear it's a matter of overcoming the knowledge barrier not the damage. Fair enough, it was a good discussion to have and learn from, but there is no need to accuse people commenting as wanting participation trophies because the damage #s clearly seemed off for LN. Especially from someone that once said ravenloft staircases were too challenging (and I only remember because of how funny I found the comment at the time- and am only commenting on it because you threw some shade).

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