View Poll Results: End the Shard/Scroll/Seal epic upgrade?

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  • Yes

    39 62.90%
  • No

    10 16.13%
  • Waste of dev time

    13 20.97%
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  1. #21
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    What is this S/S/S anyway ?

    It isn't in the DDO Acronyms Thread.
    It isn't in the Wiki as well (or at least I cannot find it).
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    What is this S/S/S anyway ?

    It isn't in the DDO Acronyms Thread.
    It isn't in the Wiki as well (or at least I cannot find it).
    It stands for:
    scroll
    seal
    shard

    You need all 3 + the item they reference to upgrade them to a level 20 item of superior abilities (in theory). However, many items were never that good and time has not been kind to other versions.
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  3. #23
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    The basic s/s/s system is fine. The main problem is that 99% of the loot is worthless. With a secondary issue that it's too grindy for older loot. Update the loot, and add some kind of trade in system to reduce the grind.

    Low priority though. There's so many things I'd rather see done (destiny updates, continued work on enhancement balance, inventory/storage, etc). When they get to it the first focus should be on the weapons. There's a shortage of good ml20 weapons to make sentient for epic leveling.
    The loot that's in the s/s/s system is part of that system, though. When it was best in slot gear that was worth grinding for, then it made sense. Now that it is "meh" gear that's nice for a few levels from 20+ for some of the individual items, it makes a lot less sense.

    There really needs to be some way to reduce the grind for things that used to be grind-y when that quest range was the cap. Otherwise, it will just be ignored entirely. Like the S/S/S system is except for the Sword of Shadow and maybe (MAYBE) 5 other items total.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximandroz View Post
    Possibly they even thought about it, but discarded after thinking the player would be all torches and pitchforks if the years of accumulated and unused shards become useless over night.
    Do I think S/S/S is an awesome system we need to institute in new places? No.

    But count me among the torch-and-pitchfork wielders if you're going to nerf/remove/whatever what's taken years to accumulate.
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  5. #25
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    I've lost count of how many runs and how many years my friend has been trying for a Wolf Whistle shard (we play in a static party, so I've been there for every run). It's literally just a point of stubbornness at this point. I think we are obligated to quit DDO if it drops or something ... might count as "beating DDO".

  6. #26
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    It stands for:
    scroll
    seal
    shard

    You need all 3 + the item they reference to upgrade them to a level 20 item of superior abilities (in theory). However, many items were never that good and time has not been kind to other versions.
    Thank you.
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  7. #27
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Do I think S/S/S is an awesome system we need to institute in new places? No.

    But count me among the torch-and-pitchfork wielders if you're going to nerf/remove/whatever what's taken years to accumulate.
    If the items just dropped naturally anywhere that s, s, or s could drop, that would make all the s/s/s you've accumulated worthless.

    ...on the other hand, it would also mean that you could treat it as "any s/s/s that drops for me magically becomes a full item now" and that's way better than any other solution even though it makes your existing s/s/s worthless.
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  8. #28
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    If getting the epic item obsoletes all those ingredients then good. More space and less grind.

    Actually it's just more space. I will never grind S/S/S. Might have been a good idea years age maybe, but not now. I'm not opposed to a grind if the quests are fun and new and the items are good.
    Last edited by GramercyRiff; 05-14-2019 at 05:56 PM.

  9. #29
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    I'd like to see S/S/S epic items drop in end chests like any other named loot and be BTA with some exceptions (raids). A possible solution to the obsoletion of the scroll/seal/shard ingredients themselves is to make them count as 5 to 10 sentient XP and thus anyone that has enormous amounts of them could then get something out of their existence.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I'd like to see S/S/S epic items drop in end chests like any other named loot and be BTA with some exceptions (raids). A possible solution to the obsoletion of the scroll/seal/shard ingredients themselves is to make them count as 5 to 10 sentient XP and thus anyone that has enormous amounts of them could then get something out of their existence.
    I love this idea.

  11. #31
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    IMHO there is nothing to fix. The published intent is that these items be exceptionally rare. They are. If you want one bad enough, get them like the rest of us did. The low level Sentinels items were relatively easy to get so I have no problem with the devs making that somewhat easier. The epic item reward for effort seems a good balance, eg. Epic Chimera's Fang is ridiculously powerful with ridiculous requirements... before they added scrolling to the info boxes, your screen couldn't even list all the bonuses that thing has. You also need to be human with all three dragon marks to fully unlock it. If you really want an extremely rare item, bragging rights and all, it needs extremely rare tenacity to earn it.

    So, no, don't nerf S/S/S. DDO needs some things to be incredibly rare and not cheapened by "I Win" buttons.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    and be BTA with some exceptions (raids).
    I agree - we've changed the Red Fens stuff to be BTA as well in keeping with that. We'll be changing (aka fixing) bind status to be less restrictive if/when we get to the full overhaul that I'm not planning on doing in the semi-near future at all, why would you assume that, that's crazy
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I would love to see the S/S/S go away. Anywhere that could drop a S or S or an S should just drop the Epic item itself. These are ML 20 items that are only going to be used for leveling. There is no reason to have the same massive farm that we had when these were the "Best In Slot" items.
    Since the items themselves have been rendered garbage by time and power creep, this solution won't help matters at all unless the epic items receive the same updates that the heroic items have been receiving in fits and spurts.

    And it's a shame, since heroic itemization happens with every release of new content, and epic cap content happens with every release of new content. But level 20 content is never released, so updating these items should have a much higher priority.
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  14. #34
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    Default Balance out items, too

    I'm all for ending s/s/s if the drop rate is feasible, or backed up by a 20th run with a guaranteed choice of items. I don't run Sands much because the items don't really interest me, but I can definitely say I'm tired of endless Chimera or Silver Flame drops in Sentinels and Web chains. Make the drop rates even so I can finally get my epic Midnight Greetings or epic Envenomed Blade, and offer every item on the 20th run.
    I mean, even for a casual player like me, epic lvl 20 stuff is starting to feel like heroic-level greensteel. Useful, but not game-changing.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    Since the items themselves have been rendered garbage by time and power creep, this solution won't help matters at all unless the epic items receive the same updates that the heroic items have been receiving in fits and spurts.

    And it's a shame, since heroic itemization happens with every release of new content, and epic cap content happens with every release of new content. But level 20 content is never released, so updating these items should have a much higher priority.
    Yep, this is spot on.

    Level 20-25 is a comparative gear wasteland where cannith crafted gear and weapons from MotU are still your best bets. Most TR veterans do everything they can to essentially skip these levels as much as possible and it's mainly due to the lack of modern gear. Think about that for a minute. The weapons from an expansion released 7 years ago are still usually the best options for that level range.

    Meanwhile, ML10-15 and ML28-30 gear gets outdated by the new content and power creep every other expansion.
    Last edited by LT218; 05-14-2019 at 10:08 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I agree - we've changed the Red Fens stuff to be BTA as well in keeping with that. We'll be changing (aka fixing) bind status to be less restrictive if/when we get to the full overhaul that I'm not planning on doing in the semi-near future at all, why would you assume that, that's crazy
    Indeed it would be good if the items are BTA after an update for them, but what I dont understand is that there is a reasonable reason that raid items are BTC.
    In my opinion, the DDO developers should finally do the mentally move to an account based DDO because this is simply a better DDO.
    The player is the one who plays DDO and also pays for it after all and it is more likely that they are satisfied customers when they feel that they are in the center of the interest of the DDO and the developers.
    I see there is already a move to BTA also for raids because in all new raids you loot runes which are BTA and you can at least decide on which character you buy the item.
    But I dont see a sufficient reason why the resulting items must be BTC.
    And also items that drop in raids should be BTA in my opinion, out of my sight only players who think everything belongs to them anyway want them BTC because they hope more other players give their items out for a roll.
    Dont hear such players because their reasons are obviously very questionable!

    And another point is that there should be a way to upgrade items you buy with runes with mythical and reaper boosts!
    If you do a raid in reaper difficulty you could loot additional reaper runes with which you can upgrade the items with a reaper boost.
    The more skulls you do the more "reaper-runes" you get and it is more worthwhile to take the challenge and do a raid with more skulls.
    To upgrade an item with a mythical boost you could simply use more runes from the same raid or do it with threads of fate like you did it with the weapons you can upgrade with Schism from Killing Time.

    In general, I would prefer that you can get currency for any item in any raid and I would prefer a solution that makes this possible because then it would be attractive to run raid A, B, C even if you want only items from raid D.
    Of course, there should be a need to run at least raid D one time for each item from raid D everything else would feel strange.

    And the same pattern could be used for items out of quests.
    A raid is also just only a quest after all, with the small difference that 12 and not only 6 players can participate.
    The idea from the tokens of the twelve with a raid and non-raid version was basically good but sadly abandoned on them.
    Then you introduced commendations of valor and Heroism, but also here instead of consequently work on that idea you left another abandoned construction site in DDO.
    And basically, the Seal/Shard/Scroll system was a good idea but also abandoned...
    Maybe it is time to go to the whiteboard and work on a comprehensive solution (maybe in an open dialogue with the players) with the goal to have something that works for the next ten years.
    And if you have this you can go to update step by step all quests to this new standard and you know this work is worthwhile because of this is a working solution for many years.

    And because of this...
    In my opinion also very important that you have a strong idea of how much power an item should deliver to a character at a certain character level (currently reflected by the Minimum Level).
    For items from 1-27 you do it already when you use the same numbers you use for cannith crafting and exactly this is right!
    But for 28 and 29 items you have somehow the strange opinion items have to be more powerful with each update and even more with a new expansion pack.
    I see that you need here some freedom for creativity and some so-called power creep is most likely inevitable.
    But there is no need that we have in U32 max +17 strength on a level 28 item, in U37 max +19 (+20 in raids) and now in U42 +22.
    This is not creativity, this is just unnecessary power creep!
    You just give up to make DDO good as a whole where every quest (including the raid quests) has good items.
    And this for a short flash in the pan and the hype that lasts maybe for a month to get new items in a new expansion.

    And I know players (including me) always want to have something to do and ask what is next...
    One idea would be a way to level items.
    This means if you put additional effort in a certain item you could maybe add power levels to an item, this means e.g. a level 10 character can use an item with the power of a level 11 item and for additional double the effort as if he was level 12 etc. (exponential increase of effort for linear power gain).

    And in my opinion, DDO should get items that scale with the character level because they are simply MUCH better for a game where you level your characters often from one to 30!

    The main goal is as much as possible freedom and fun for the players besides there are very good reasons for restrictions.
    And if you have this I'm not worried that enough revenue comes with it, because I'm convinced that happy players are good customers which leads to more paying customers over time.
    And hopefully more nice people who play DDO with me
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  17. #37
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    Just making the epic version drop, or increasing the drop rate of shards/etc, would be a nice stopgap solution that would take maybe an hour or two tops to make. We are talking about some lines in a database here, SSG doesnt work like the techpriests in warhammer40k where they have to burn sacred incense and chant stuff to turn on a switch.

    The problem is that making power creep expansions always takes priority so theres always a huge backlog of bugs and improvements that get pushed to the rear.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by awar1234 View Post
    Only change need is drop rate or make it GUARANTEED on 20th completion
    My thoughts exactly... I like the concept of getting an item at lower levels, then being able to upgrade it later, but the drop rates are far too low to make it practical for getting usable items.
    A change in drop rates in tables makes the system functional enough to allow the items to fill the gap during levelling.
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  19. #39
    Community Member CaptainPurge's Avatar
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    Because I've seen good men waste years trying to loot shard of RoSS. Not a joke.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortas View Post
    IMHO there is nothing to fix. The published intent is that these items be exceptionally rare. They are. If you want one bad enough, get them like the rest of us did. The low level Sentinels items were relatively easy to get so I have no problem with the devs making that somewhat easier. The epic item reward for effort seems a good balance, eg. Epic Chimera's Fang is ridiculously powerful with ridiculous requirements... before they added scrolling to the info boxes, your screen couldn't even list all the bonuses that thing has. You also need to be human with all three dragon marks to fully unlock it. If you really want an extremely rare item, bragging rights and all, it needs extremely rare tenacity to earn it.

    So, no, don't nerf S/S/S. DDO needs some things to be incredibly rare and not cheapened by "I Win" buttons.
    Of course, in this case, you can have the opinion that the current system is WAI and all is fine but I wonder a bit if you really thought enough about the things you write here.

    if you say: "If you really want an extremely rare item, bragging rights and all, it needs extremely rare tenacity to earn it." then I wonder if you dont see the contradictions here?
    The fundament of the DDO loot system is LUCK you have just only the chance to get something and everyone knows Fortuna is a "*****".
    But now I going to do some work to show some facts and it is also more work for your brain to understand that by reading and comprehend than just having an unfounded opinion...

    I give you an example, someone told me that he rolled 6 times in a row a one in the daily dice and now he is going to make a bug report...
    My answer was that this is such a low chance to have this that it is more likely you win a JackPot in a lottery.
    In fact, the current chance to win 339 Million $ is 3305 times lower than that, in other words, if he not totally exaggerated it is more likely to win 3305 times the JackPot in MegaMillion than rolling 6 times in a row a one on a d100 roll.

    Another example and actually from the S/S/S system, an unnamed source tells me that the average chance on a shard for an Epic Ring of Spell Storing (EROSS) is 1 in 6700.
    I farmed this EROSS for many months and wondered what the actual drop chances for this item are because I had the assumption that the chance on the seals is similar and you have more chests available with a drop chance for a seal I made a statistic for this.
    The result of my insufficient statistic (because the drop chance is that low you would need numbers in the millions to prove something) shows that for me one seal dropped in more than 5400 chests (I also counted the chests of my group members).
    Therefore my own experience speaks at least not against the assumption that the 1/6700 chance is the correct number.
    But what does this mean?
    If you count in that you have 2 chances per raid to loot this shard and you have an unlimited amount of raid timer bypasses you have 5 chances every day to loot such a Shard on one character due to the ransack every day and if you reroll the chest in the pre-raid (not possible in the raid).
    This means in average you loot one shard after 1340 days or 3.7 years farming.
    Again this means you run this quest every day!
    And this would also mean you use 1340 raid timer bypass hourglasses and you reroll the ADQ end chest 4020 times.
    The raid timer bypass hour glass costs without any discount 1.39$ and one chest reroll costs you 0.64$.
    The result is that under these assumptions you not only "work" 3.7 years for it, you also spend ~4435 $ on it.
    Of course I made this scenario because I think it is more convincing if you can name a price for something even if this price is of course only valid under the assumed circumstances.
    And yes, you have every time the chance that it drops for you even for the first time but there is also the chance that it doesn't drop after more than 20.000 times.
    Personally, I farmed the ROSS with 15 characters and used only a few rerolls and bypasses because I'm not stupid and my estimation showed me how costly it would be to do that at the end.
    And to make it clear, I have now an Epic Ring of Spell Storing and I dont just complain because I'm some kind of "frustrated poor loser".

    My conclusion:
    To loot an EROSS shard is similar to a win in a lottery and I see no reason to be proud of winning in a lottery at all and therefore I also see no "bragging rights" here.
    I know I could have looted one shard after 1-10 runs (and some players actually did that) but I also know that with all my work I could still have no EROSS.
    And I know there certainly some players who put more work into the EROSS and they still dont have it.
    All this tells me that the whole idea of super rare items is against my interest as a player and because of this, I should be against such a system besides I dont know the numbers and/or I'm just plain stupid.
    But yea this is of course also only my "subjective opinion" but at least it is a bit more founded...
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