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  1. #141
    Community Member DYWYPI's Avatar
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    Lynnabel, I wouldn't mind if you removed the top tier: 30 point <Elemental> Resistance Shrine Rental Contract. From the legacy Cargo buffs. ;-)

    The Resist Energy (resist 30) Potions can be acquired at CL: 11. The (resist 20) Potions can be purchased CL: 7 from the regular vendors. So by the time your Character is Level 11, you can theoretically gain as much protection - via drinking - as the maximum (resist 30) Airship provided by the "Cargo Amenity" anyway. So by that stage in progression the benefits are balancing-out and the gap is reducing.

    Furthermore the House Phiarlan, Patron offers: 20 Resist, which can be achieved by the time you have completed less than nine quests up to a maximum Quest Level: 5.

    So I'm finding it rather hard to believe the old Airship Resist Shrines currently still pose a major threat at: 20 Resist. The House Jorasco, Patron offers a similar service by time you've completed seven of the patron's quests up to Quest Level: 6.

    Admittedly you'd need access to the Adventure Packs but technically there shouldn't be much problem achieving those Rewards by the time your Character is Level 7.

    Your (Lynnabel's) preferences are certainly different then mine regarding using Resist Wands and Potions over the Guild Buff method. The potions are the only reliable method of working and there's: Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity and Sonic. At CL: 7 that's only 7 minute (resist 20) protection.

    They also add pack weight and more importantly consume valuable space within the Inventory. Let alone the annoying trips to the Vendors to restock stacks, etc. Then you have to fiddle around drinking them every so often, etc. There is a thing called diversity, and not everyone is a build fanatic, veteran or likes zerging through quests, etc.

    If you are dying a lot to elemental damage at those low levels - with such buffs - then the odds are you are on the wrong difficulty setting for your Character or not prepared for that quest. Therefore there shouldn't be a great need to go back to an Airship more than every hour anyway - if you are choosing an appropriate setting.

    I don't really understand why Lynnabel was considering putting a Mailbox on the top deck - it's a very inefficient place to have one. There are plenty of Mailboxes elsewhere than on an Airship.

    I cannot understand why a Developer would want to encourage people to hide on the ship instance reading mail - I thought that increased server load? It would potentially free-up a hook point (and not cost anything to renew maybe) but that's the only real advantage.

    Its case of those Elemental Resist Shrines can stack with the newer Airship Amenity Deeds potentially giving a low-level Character in the single figures a hefty advantage.

    Primarily the Cargo Amenities help and encourage those starter Guilds (to keep playing and working towards a goal) that have less resources and cannot just flippantly purchase the larger Ships, etc.
    Last edited by DYWYPI; 05-12-2019 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Shove that banjo up your sleeve. And don't believe the junk they put on you.

  2. #142
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Some comments are unclear but even Lynn's first quote in this thread refers to "ripping out the cargo hold entirely"... but sure here are a few others that seem to imply removing the cargo hold altogether:
    You should rather consider at the first place that others don't have the intention to harm you in any way if there is no need or reason for it.
    Yes, I talked about removing the cargo hold from the game and that this is better than the current situation.
    Not to mention that this is something that was announced years ago and just only never done so far.

    BUT you should also see that I always say we should be open for new better solutions.
    And your points are in my opinion absolutely valid in general.
    But please forgive me when I see at first my situation and think it is for everyone similar as for me (an often made mistake not only by me).
    But I'm also forced to tell you that you have the big misconception to think that a new solution can only better than the old when you keep every last benefit from the old situation and in addition some new benefits.
    The new situation has to be in sum better, of course, otherwise, it makes no sense to change something.
    But this means not that it has to be better for everyone (sorry but it's stupid to expect that in general).
    The task is to find a GOOD compromise which considers the needs of all as good as possible.
    In German, the word "Kompromiss" is often seen as something bad in general because this also means that everyone has most likely given up on something and I just assume its similar In the English-speaking world.
    But the purpose of a compromise is an improvement for all involved.
    The willingness to compromise is a sign of respect for the needs or reasons of the other.

    In my opinion, we have basically two objectively bad things that should be changed if possible.
    The contradiction between the 5 hours lasting new buffs and the one-hour lasting old buffs.
    And that it is most time need to zone at least a second time on your guild ship to have access to the most frequently used functions.

    For the buffs, the question is foremost if it makes sense to keep them from the game balance perspective and here the developers should have the last word (even if they should be of course open for suggestions) and the players have to deal with it.
    If the legacy buffs are tolerable from the balance-perspective, they should be a part of the one click and ready for 3-5 hours system.

    And for the Cargo hold, I still think it should be removed from the design perspective.
    But at the same time, it would be good to add some of the functions to the top deck.
    Also from the design perspective, it makes not much sense to add every last thing to the top deck because this would most likely look very awful.
    In my opinion, it just needs to have the mailbox, bank, auctioneer, Amenity Bar, banker and maybe a deconstruction device here.
    And this functionality of the top deck could be for all ships the same no matter of size or if you pay Astral Shards for your ship.
    But some things like the Stone of Change or Epic Altar can be completely removed from the ship and this is not a big loss.

    This is of course only my opinion and if you think there is something very important I dont see and it's not possible for you to give up on it, I'm interested to know about it.

    By the way for the lost guild chests in the Cargo Hold, I think this is something that demands a redesign in any case.
    Every guild, no matter of size should have much bigger and much better manageable guild storage and the current solution with several chests are quite awful if you ask me.
    But I dont want to go to much into the detail because I wrote already way too much.
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  3. #143
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgemina View Post
    I know I'm late to the game here, but I agree with Aelonwy et al, there are several legacy items in the cargo hold that would be hard to lose. The resistance shrines that most everyone seem to be stuck on, but the also the ability to swap in the various crafting stations, experience shrine and guild chests for plat are very nice to have - and don't require me to buy astral shards. While, as Nyata said "...every halfway experienced player..." can run stuff naked, there are folks out there that play the game that aren't so high speed and need a bit of a boost. The resistance shrines in particular are handy for guild mates that perhaps aren't the most, lets say adroit, at playing the game, but still love it.

    Finally, one of the things that I would miss from the cargo hold is good ol' squid face Xathrizopkrsis for quick travel he(?) provides.

    Just my 2cp.
    well said. not everyone has a lvl 150 boat and has the opportunity for all the other buffs. ie not all guilds are created equal. Being a member in both a small guild and a large one I definitely see the difference the fully decked out ship gives. While people are more than happy to invite to their guildship that doesn't help solo play.
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  4. #144
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Disagree - the buffs themselves are pretty stupidly OP.

    Plus, if we don't replace them, it won't make us look like I'm doing this for purely profit-related reasons, even though I desperately want to do this for "objectively make DDO more fun to play" reasons.
    I wonder if you do not see that the reason for this "pretty stupidly OP" is that the resistance buffs are in general very questionable?
    They were good as the max level in DDO was 10 and the went worse and worse the higher the max level in DDO grew.
    Basically, the resists with the fixed number of damage reduction could still work but the damage of the monster (and the player HPs) went in a totally different direction.
    If you dont want to redesign all monster damage and the players hit points, there is in my opinion only one logical step, and this is the consequent move to percent based absorption.
    I would even say the whole system should be reduced to only Magical Resistance Rating and every effect that is now Absorption should add value to that score.
    Then you have in your character sheet a separate MRR score for each magical type of MRR (e.g. fire, cold, chaos, law, light, etc.) and you can easily see how resistant your character is currently against each damage type.
    The current system is way too complicated and I think everyone can see how ridiculous it is to read that your character was hit by e.g. 2.597 electrical damage and 30 were resisted by your "pretty stupidly OP" electrical resistance (and what the absorption and MRR did you cannot read).

    The same basically for physical damage where the old DRs of monsters and players should be rather reflected by percent based absorption only.
    Also here I stop with details even if I have of course also here already ideas how it might be done.

    But to go not too much off topic, until we get a new system that is a far more comprehensive solution, in my opinion, it is not very harmful to keep the legacy buffs.
    Just only maybe make them scale with the character level, this means a level 1-6 character gets only 10 resist, a level 7-10 character gets 20 resist and a level 11+ character gets +30 resist.
    The other still stacking legacy buffs can you keep or remove, personally I care even less for them.
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Whatever. That's just your opinion. Its no more or less valid than mine. I hate the condescending I know what's better for you than you do... which is all your candy versus vegetable example says.
    Well, no...its not a matter of opinion, vegetables are objectively healthier than candy. You can choose not to believe it, but its still objectively true.

    Balance is healthier than imbalance. That's another objective fact. You can likewise choose to not believe in it, but its still objectively true. The good thing about balance is its true whether or not you believe in it, to borrow a quote from Tyson.

    To borrow a non-quote from Thanos...fun isnt something one considers when balancing the game. Balance is about balance. If something is fun but imbalanced, then its still gotta go. The goal is to get as much fun packed in as possible, while still maintaining balance. I absolutely believe that a healthy game is not a democracy - the devs need to save many players from themselves and their impulses. So yes, they do need to decide what's good for you. You cant let the rats run the Skinner box or it'll just be all buttons and then we all die.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    There are people who play DDO that will do anything - even if it's objectively not fun and makes them bored and burn out - if it means a better XP/min ratio or gives them better stats. It's on us, the developers, to find outliers like that - things that are not fun and make the game worse - and either make them fun or remove them. :P
    Ok let's test this ambiguous statement of yours, here's a few for you to work on.

    Wolfs are outliers giving better XP/min ratio to other classes. Event if it's a preferred class of the team.

    Dc casters through insta-kills and charms are outliers giving better XP/min ratio to other classes especially in heroics. Event if they are preferred classes by the team.


    Reaper self heal penalty penalizes damage meditation melee classes to a far greater degree than avoidance classes especially ranged dps making them outliers giving better XP/min ratio to other classes. Event if it's a preferred by the team.

    There are many more examples of the team doing the very thing your accusing the players of because after all you all play the game also, but let just start with these.

    Consider your self's called out.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The actual thought process of "ugh I died, now I gotta go run an errand before I can play DDO again" is objectively not fun.
    Counterpoint: death in a quest has a meaningful penalty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The actual thought process of "ugh I died, now I gotta go run an errand before I can play DDO again" is objectively not fun.
    So you plan to remove item damage on death, so we don't need to go repair after dying in quests?

  9. #149
    Community Member GrannyNooblet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    When I say things like "I" and "me" - as in "I'd like to rip them out of the game" - I truly do mean I and me. If this were universally wanted (apparently other people on the team care about the feelings of the players, ugh, those cowards) it'd have been done literally years ago.

    This is a lighthearted Saturday morning discussion, I promise. It's not the apocalypse. I might even just put the mailbox and stuff on the top deck anyway, who knows :P gotta keep you guys on your toes.
    Hi. Sorry to stick my nooblet nose in this discussion again, but I have to ask again. Why the top deck?

    Have you been on the top deck of a small ship lately? If not, give it a shot. I recommend the Sparrow. Look around, better yet try to move around and up the ramps to the captain or to access the amenity bar. Then stand there for a while, like maybe the length of time you'd spend standing there at a mailbox/vendor/auctioneer. Oh and don't forget to have your ambient sounds on. *all said with a smile of course*
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  10. #150
    Hatchery Hero Dark_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    To be super ultra super duper actually seriously clear, when I talk about Legacy Buffs, I am specifically talking about the "touch me for one hour of OP nonsense" buffs that make DDO objectively less fun by existing, not the rest of the stuff you're worried about losing. That is why I specifically made sure to state that I'd be placing stuff on the top deck. The Bank, mailbox, whatever that costs plat - it's not fun to have to remember to throw approximately 20 whole platinum down a well every month or whatever so you can check your auctions, but at the very least it's not "better come back here every hour" level of not fun.

    You're preaching to the choir, here.
    Appreciate it is just your opinion, which is cool.
    I counter that champ DOTs are "stupidly OP" and the poison one can't be resisted like the elements.

    It is a death sentence for the "casual" players - Casual as in "I just got home from work and want to play a computer game for one hour before doing other chores". If I have to restart a quest too many times, I don't get to finish it. This casual is for the knowledgeable, competent people who don't live in a computer game. It doesn't mean you can't do some Reaper since you are knowledgeable and equipped - you just don't have the time to do things for hours. But, the massively OP DOTs / Dungeon Alert just by entering a dungeon and start the first fight are your bane.

    I like some thing the way they are:
    Moving everything to the zone-in level means you can enter lagfest (everyone in one location with their auras - I have seen it where the hold is lagged down but the top deck is fine. How does that happen? I don't know but I can still use the ship to go from A to B.
    The Cargo hold lets people do crafting / banking / trading / AH at the same time.
    It also lets people use the test dummies while trading weapons back and forth for comparison (egads, min/maxing you say? You mean people never test their equipment in real life)?
    You can zone to most other locations.
    I have no problem doing boat maintenance. It is like paying your rent or phonebill.
    Most people I know can't "live" in the game and only grab an hour here and there to play. The 1 hour buffs work PERFECTLY for them. They go back to the boat to repair/sell anyways.


    Again, using the equipment in the hold is a play style for some people. I know plenty of completionists who never use the buffs (that is how THEY play the game). We are so concerned on how to mold the game to just one (your?) playing style that we forget the casual players.

    What I keep reading from "your/dev/player" opinions is how things just need to get nerfed and are not "quality of life" improvements. Things need to get moved for a certain playstyle - but not at the sacrifice of other playstyles.


    Also, the roleplaying card gets tossed around. You know what doesn't fit roleplaying? Champ oozes and Dungeon ALERT with mindless creatures. I also throw DOTs in there, but I know that is less popular to (will never) get rid of by devs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    lol, I didnt give it a QA pass.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Whatever. That's just your opinion. Its no more or less valid than mine. I hate the condescending I know what's better for you than you do
    Yeah, this tends to happen on the forums. Careful when you give your opinion; there's always some who's smarter and more-right than you are. i.e.

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    This discussion would be a lot better if the 'solutions' being offered up actually resulted in not making this situation worse.

    Thanks.
    You're welcome.
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    I wonder if you do not see that the reason for this "pretty stupidly OP" is that the resistance buffs are in general very questionable?
    They were good as the max level in DDO was 10 and the went worse and worse the higher the max level in DDO grew.
    Basically, the resists with the fixed number of damage reduction could still work but the damage of the monster (and the player HPs) went in a totally different direction.
    If you dont want to redesign all monster damage and the players hit points, there is in my opinion only one logical step, and this is the consequent move to percent based absorption.
    I would even say the whole system should be reduced to only Magical Resistance Rating and every effect that is now Absorption should add value to that score.
    Then you have in your character sheet a separate MRR score for each magical type of MRR (e.g. fire, cold, chaos, law, light, etc.) and you can easily see how resistant your character is currently against each damage type.
    The current system is way too complicated and I think everyone can see how ridiculous it is to read that your character was hit by e.g. 2.597 electrical damage and 30 were resisted by your "pretty stupidly OP" electrical resistance (and what the absorption and MRR did you cannot read).

    The same basically for physical damage where the old DRs of monsters and players should be rather reflected by percent based absorption only.
    Also here I stop with details even if I have of course also here already ideas how it might be done.

    But to go not too much off topic, until we get a new system that is a far more comprehensive solution, in my opinion, it is not very harmful to keep the legacy buffs.
    Just only maybe make them scale with the character level, this means a level 1-6 character gets only 10 resist, a level 7-10 character gets 20 resist and a level 11+ character gets +30 resist.
    The other still stacking legacy buffs can you keep or remove, personally I care even less for them.
    The argument is that the flat resistances are stupidly OP at lower levels.
    When your character has under 100 HP, the game cannot reasonably incorporate attacks that deal more than 30 damage per hit. Which means that at that level, 30 flat resist might as well be 100% absorption.

    By level 11 (the level at which casters manage to hand out the same 30 resist), the characters' HPs have gone up significantly, and that flat resistance, while still meaningful, is much more of a protection against DoT effects than direct damage.

    The reason they're considered OP is because they're handing out a CL 11 spell effect at levels far, far below 11.

    As for your solution, it has already been applied. 5 resist at levels 1-10, 10 at levels 11-20, and 15 at levels 21 and beyond, along with 15% absorption to those, so that buff remains relevant in higher levels. Oh, and to make gearing and spells meaningful, make sure these stack with actual equipment!
    We call those the "new guild buffs". That were supposed to replace the unscaled, OP-at-low-levels old buffs.
    The error is that the old buffs never went away.

  13. #153
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If I'm being honest, I'd love to rip the entire Cargo hold out of DDO entirely and just put a Mailbox, bank, vendor, etc, all on the top deck of every ship. I find the legacy buffs a tax on fun in DDO.
    Please do this. I agree with you 100%. The cargo buffs are tedious. And the resists trivialize a lot of low-level content.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    The 'resists buffs are OP' position is kind of tired given our options in game for getting them from other sources like gear, crafting, potions, wands and spells, even at low levels. At one point in the game's history that position made some sense, but it doesn't really now.

    That you believe you know what is objectively fun is quite alarming. It should be abundantly clear by now that not everyone agrees with your idea of what is fun. For example, your idea of fun endgame gear are items I consider bad and result in an endless headache for me when it comes to gearing my characters.

    Thanks.
    That's debatable. Many people like to use the resists buffs because they don't want to bother with other sources at low levels. They could forgo them or search for other means of acquiring the same benefits, but then again anyone could go without ship buffs completely. If you'd like to add any further original content to the discussion, we'd love to hear it. Shooting down the suggestions of other's is not constructive. I had an uncle that used to do that. Yuck.

    Please be respectful of other people's opinions, rather than discounting them as inferior to your own. It's not conducive to a productive and inclusive discussion.

    Thanks.
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  15. #155
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Well, no...its not a matter of opinion, vegetables are objectively healthier than candy. You can choose not to believe it, but its still objectively true.
    I wasn't saying vegetables versus candy was an opinion when I said "whatever, that's just your opinion" I was talking about your OPINION on the Opness of the resists. Vegetables versus candy wasn't an opinion it was your effort at condescension on my opinion -about the Opness of the resists- because apparently I must spell out my statements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    That's debatable. Many people like to use the resists buffs because they don't want to bother with other sources at low levels. They could forgo them or search for other means of acquiring the same benefits, but then again anyone could go without ship buffs completely. If you'd like to add any further original content to the discussion, we'd love to hear it. Shooting down the suggestions of other's is not constructive. I had an uncle that used to do that. Yuck.

    Please be respectful of other people's opinions, rather than discounting them as inferior to your own. It's not conducive to a productive and inclusive discussion.

    Thanks.
    Perhaps you and I have different ideas about what it is to be respectful and constructive.

    I took the time to read the discussion and get a sense of the arguments on both sides. What I didn't do was parachute into the thread several pages in with a bad suggestion that ignores the previous discussion and then declare the problem solved when it wasn't. That sort of 'mission accomplished' nonsense doesn't seem respectful to me at all.

    If you want to play a useful role in this discussion you could start looking at what other people are saying rather than assuming you have all the answers. Everyone has an opinion, but not all opinions are equally useful. If you can't be bothered to look at and think about the issues people have raised, then maybe your opinion on this topic just isn't all that useful. It would only take a small amount of effort for you to fix that but it seems like you would rather make an issue of my manner instead.

    As for being constructive, my advice is to leave things as they are. Zero developer effort, zero disappointment for people who use the buffs, and those who don't like them can ignore them. Taking things away for no good reason isn't constructive, it's the exact opposite of that.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 05-12-2019 at 01:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Perhaps you and I have different ideas about what it is to be respectful and constructive.

    I took the time to read the discussion and get a sense of the arguments on both sides. What I didn't do was parachute into the thread several pages in with a bad suggestion that ignores the previous discussion and then declare the problem solved when it wasn't. That sort of 'mission accomplished' nonsense doesn't seem respectful to me at all.

    If you want to play a useful role in this discussion you could start looking at what other people are saying rather than assuming you have all the answers. Everyone has an opinion, but not all opinions are equally useful. If you can't be bothered to look at and think about the issues people have raised, then maybe your opinion on this topic just isn't all that useful. It would only take a small amount of effort for you to fix that but it seems like you would rather make an issue of my manner instead.

    As for being constructive, my advice is to leave things as they are. Zero developer effort, zero disappointment for people who use the buffs, and those who don't like them can ignore them. Taking things away for no good reason isn't constructive, it's the exact opposite of that.

    Thanks.

    Removing this would be one more elitist mistake that hurts new and causal players and since Lyn is nearing completionest now she thinks it should be removed go figure.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If I'm being honest, I'd love to rip the entire Cargo hold out of DDO entirely and just put a Mailbox, bank, vendor, etc, all on the top deck of every ship. I find the legacy buffs a tax on fun in DDO.
    Bear in mind I believe (unless I'm wrong) that there are a few old buffs that appear to stack with the new ship buffs. House D Defender, Silver Flame Priest, and the Gruul Hobgoblin guy. Other buffs give a warning about non-stacking. These may be insignificant at level 30, but are quite relevant at level 1 and therefore indirectly contribute to fun.

    AND yes, the elemental resists!

    Can those be incorporated into the current ship buffs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjstechie View Post
    Counterpoint: death in a quest has a meaningful penalty
    Agreed. We should be thankful that we don't loose XP each time we die as in ~2007 when death meant XP loss. A tool tip was finally fixed not long ago that still said "....removes any XP penalties that you have".
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  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    The argument is that the flat resistances are stupidly OP at lower levels.
    When your character has under 100 HP, the game cannot reasonably incorporate attacks that deal more than 30 damage per hit. Which means that at that level, 30 flat resist might as well be 100% absorption.

    By level 11 (the level at which casters manage to hand out the same 30 resist), the characters' HPs have gone up significantly, and that flat resistance, while still meaningful, is much more of a protection against DoT effects than direct damage.

    The reason they're considered OP is because they're handing out a CL 11 spell effect at levels far, far below 11.

    As for your solution, it has already been applied. 5 resist at levels 1-10, 10 at levels 11-20, and 15 at levels 21 and beyond, along with 15% absorption to those, so that buff remains relevant in higher levels. Oh, and to make gearing and spells meaningful, make sure these stack with actual equipment!
    We call those the "new guild buffs". That were supposed to replace the unscaled, OP-at-low-levels old buffs.
    The error is that the old buffs never went away.
    maybe it's just me who writes not in clear English but I basically said all that and far more.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

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