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  1. #121
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    While I can see Lynnabel's point about going back to the ship as a chore, it is optional, so I don't quite feel the same.
    I would like to point out, taking resists as an example, that casting resist *element* 5x on a shared timer, every time I enter a quest or rest at a shrine, is actually worse in my opinion. Potions and wands have a cooldown too, so using consumables doesn't really help.

    My point is that, looking at it as a "chore", the problem is how the system works, not the current tools for working within that system. I'm fine with it remaining as is, I just don't want the gap between caster and noncaster to widen in heroics.

  2. #122
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red_kain View Post
    While I can see Lynnabel's point about going back to the ship as a chore, it is optional, so I don't quite feel the same.
    I would like to point out, taking resists as an example, that casting resist *element* 5x on a shared timer, every time I enter a quest or rest at a shrine, is actually worse in my opinion. Potions and wands have a cooldown too, so using consumables doesn't really help.

    My point is that, looking at it as a "chore", the problem is how the system works, not the current tools for working within that system. I'm fine with it remaining as is, I just don't want the gap between caster and noncaster to widen in heroics.
    Agree. I grab the resist shrines on all my chars until I can wear the draconic resist augment at L25, cuz I hate casting them on myself every quest. Their impact is increasingly minimal as you gain MRR though, due to the negative synergy between them.

  3. #123
    Community Member Nonesuch2008's Avatar
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    I know that the stated intention many moons ago was to remove the legacy cargo bay buffs, and for several of them it makes a lot of sense. The non-stacking 'Easter Island' statue stat buffs come to mind, for instance. Other buffs are definitely worth keeping.

    As some people have voiced though, there is an inherent penalty to those with smaller guilds that do not have the physical space to replace what would be removed, as well as potential monetary conflicts which could arise from such an action. At the time of the augment revamp, it seems like there was also an intent to remove the legacy guild augment vendors from House K, yet they are still present to this day. The removal of legacy guild buffs would have a much more widespread impact on the player base, since they are still widely in current use.

    As for the elemental buffs being OP, that may be true, but I think a scaling option based on level is a much more elegant solution than outright removal. If it can be done without a major overhaul or becoming a black hole of development time, I'd love to see the cargo bay buffs have their duration extended and be consolidated somehow.

    My personal preference on quaffing potions or using wands and such to apply buffs is that it is more tedious dealing with all the cooldowns than compared to going to the ship. I'll return to recharge cargo bay buffs if I think I could use the boost, but as others here have said, I am in no way compelled to return to the ship after every quest just because they are there. Everyone has a personal choice or preference here, but I think it's less harmful to leave them as-is than to remove them outright.


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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The actual thought process of "ugh I died, now I gotta go run an errand before I can play DDO again" is objectively not fun.
    Well, since it's not "subjective" to you, and it's objective... I'll play.

    Running an errand BEFORE going on a quest to make sure I have all of my groceries (stock up on potions, wands, inventory juggle for items with resists, skills, attributes... all needed for Quests A, D and E) before I can play DDO again is OBJECTIVELY not fun.

  5. #125
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    The training dummy buff. How about letting casters be able to hit it again so we can test the dps please. Also, please add a legendary version... put a pirate hat on it with 10x the hp and appropriate buff.

  6. #126
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Is anyone talking about removing the actual physical cargo hold room on the ship? I think when we're saying "cargo hold" we mean "the suite of legacy amenities currently hooked in the cargo hold". I dont see any reason why the room itself needs to be thrown out, if its useful for non-buff-related activities.
    Some comments are unclear but even Lynn's first quote in this thread refers to "ripping out the cargo hold entirely"... but sure here are a few others that seem to imply removing the cargo hold altogether:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    I see it absolutely in the same way and I even suggested this already by myself.
    To remove the cargo and the old guild buffs from the game is certainly objectively a better solution than the current system even if players will cry out NERF.
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleTimb View Post
    Delete the old ship buffs. It's been what, six years since you said they'd be going away Soon TM?
    Any change is going to anger people, so just rip the bandaid off quickly and be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    Just make a +30 Resistance amenity. It grants 30 energy resistance to each type. Then ditch the Cargo Hold. Problem solved.
    But again if anyone started the idea of entirely removing the cargo hold... it was Lynn.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Not a desire, a need to. I'm sure nerfing things is the last thing Lynn ever wants to do because of what a headache that always becomes.

    Balance is a valid and necessary objective, and that sometimes means drawing things back in. Its healthier for the game in the long term, because it allows the devs to develop new content with a clear and accurate expectation of what players will be able to achieve. OP buffs are candy...it makes you happy to get it, but eventually it'll rot your teeth. Sometimes you need to nerf dinner back to vegetables.
    Whatever. That's just your opinion. Its no more or less valid than mine. I hate the condescending I know what's better for you than you do... which is all your candy versus vegetable example says. Is it over tuned under level 10... sure. Does it need removed entirely? Not in my opinion. Currently the scaling resists only give 15 max, had they been tuned to give 10/20/30 (non stacking with cargo hold elem resis) over the course of the game we wouldn't even be gabbing about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    What's the very valid reason behind "dont nerf me bro"? I can understand not wanting to get existing buffs merely transmuted to a more inconvenient form like potions/wands...but what's the justification for keeping buffs that are currently OP for what they are?
    Had you been reading along... the valid reasons for my contrary opinion is the totality of loosing the entire cargo hold and all the benefits and options therein which is what Lynn initially said.

    This would include for me on a smaller guild ship playing with my husband and children:
    XP shrine @ 4%
    Two Guild Storage Chests
    Access to AH/Mailbox/Bank/Tavern all next to each other. (tremendous convenience)
    Quick access to Stone of Change (which I can forgo)
    Quick access to rogue crafting table (which I can forgo)
    Quick access to Altar of Epic rituals (which I can forgo)
    Access to Elemental Resists which my kids use regularly and I have the CHOICE to use on melee characters

    And nerfing isn't just about numbers its also about OPTIONS which people are quick to gloss over.

    Quote Originally Posted by aoeusnth View Post
    No, they can't choose to do that because there's no way to get 30 elemental resists before level 10 (at least that I can think of).
    They can't get the full 30 under 10, no but they can choose not to come back to the ship if it bores and aggravates them so much and instead use potions/wands to at least mitigate some of their elemental resistance issues.

    Mostly I was speaking to the CHOICE of coming back to the ship every hour and some people finding that so onerous yet the alternative is to carry and use wands/potions every few minutes up to a max of what? 10 minutes even for STORE potions? And thus I would find that more bothersome and aggravating.

    Still better to have the CHOICE than to have that choice taken away.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If I'm being honest, I'd love to rip the entire Cargo hold out of DDO entirely and just put a Mailbox, bank, vendor, etc, all on the top deck of every ship. I find the legacy buffs a tax on fun in DDO.
    They help enhance the fun for a new player who joins an established guild.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    But again if anyone started the idea of entirely removing the cargo hold... it was Lynn.
    I mean, if you'll allow me just to quote my own first post myself, I did say that I'd be putting the stuff that isn't 1 hour terrible bad time buffs on the top deck in the same sentence as "rip the buff parts out of the game entirely with extreme prejudice."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If I'm being honest, I'd love to rip the entire Cargo hold out of DDO entirely and just put a Mailbox, bank, vendor, etc, all on the top deck of every ship. I find the legacy buffs a tax on fun in DDO.
    To be super ultra super duper actually seriously clear, when I talk about Legacy Buffs, I am specifically talking about the "touch me for one hour of OP nonsense" buffs that make DDO objectively less fun by existing, not the rest of the stuff you're worried about losing. That is why I specifically made sure to state that I'd be placing stuff on the top deck. The Bank, mailbox, whatever that costs plat - it's not fun to have to remember to throw approximately 20 whole platinum down a well every month or whatever so you can check your auctions, but at the very least it's not "better come back here every hour" level of not fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalris_Thane View Post
    Well, since it's not "subjective" to you, and it's objective... I'll play.

    Running an errand BEFORE going on a quest to make sure I have all of my groceries (stock up on potions, wands, inventory juggle for items with resists, skills, attributes... all needed for Quests A, D and E) before I can play DDO again is OBJECTIVELY not fun.
    You're preaching to the choir, here.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 05-11-2019 at 08:04 PM.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    ... I am specifically talking about the "touch me for one hour of OP nonsense" buffs that make DDO objectively less fun by existing, not the rest of the stuff you're worried about losing. ...
    The 'resists buffs are OP' position is kind of tired given our options in game for getting them from other sources like gear, crafting, potions, wands and spells, even at low levels. At one point in the game's history that position made some sense, but it doesn't really now.

    That you believe you know what is objectively fun is quite alarming. It should be abundantly clear by now that not everyone agrees with your idea of what is fun. For example, your idea of fun endgame gear are items I consider bad and result in an endless headache for me when it comes to gearing my characters.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 05-11-2019 at 08:26 PM.
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  10. #130
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    I know I'm late to the game here, but I agree with Aelonwy et al, there are several legacy items in the cargo hold that would be hard to lose. The resistance shrines that most everyone seem to be stuck on, but the also the ability to swap in the various crafting stations, experience shrine and guild chests for plat are very nice to have - and don't require me to buy astral shards. While, as Nyata said "...every halfway experienced player..." can run stuff naked, there are folks out there that play the game that aren't so high speed and need a bit of a boost. The resistance shrines in particular are handy for guild mates that perhaps aren't the most, lets say adroit, at playing the game, but still love it.

    Finally, one of the things that I would miss from the cargo hold is good ol' squid face Xathrizopkrsis for quick travel he(?) provides.

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  11. #131
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    1) Move all the Cargo Hold **** to the main level, but otherwise don't mess with the legacy buffs.

    2) Create a new version of the same legacy buffs that works with the new guild buffs system. Sell it for Points, then open it up for AS a few months later. These do the EXACT same thing the legacy buffs do, only longer duration, and don't expire on death. If you want to add scaling, be sure it goes BOTH WAYS. 30 resist is a bit OP early in, but let's be honest, it's mostly useless in mid to high epics. Maybe something like
    Level 1 - 10 resist
    Level 7 - 20 resist
    Level 11 - 30 resist
    Level 20 - 35 resist
    Level 25 - 40 resist
    Level 30 - 45 resist

    This would also necessitate a rework of certain ED abilities.

    3) Do SOMETHING about Inventory. It's been an issue for FAR too long, and it one of the main reasons I have not logged in for the past month and a half, and have not purchased Sharn.

  12. #132
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    The Device Workstation is only available in the Cargo Hold (as far as the ship is concerned). Someone forgot to include it in the Trapsmith's Workshop, but apparently thought it a good idea to rip it out of the Harbor. Don't even think about nerfing the Cargo Hold before getting the new stuff finished right.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    To be super ultra super duper actually seriously clear, when I talk about Legacy Buffs, I am specifically talking about the "touch me for one hour of OP nonsense" buffs that make DDO objectively less fun by existing, not the rest of the stuff you're worried about losing. That is why I specifically made sure to state that I'd be placing stuff on the top deck. The Bank, mailbox, whatever that costs plat - it's not fun to have to remember to throw approximately 20 whole platinum down a well every month or whatever so you can check your auctions, but at the very least it's not "better come back here every hour" level of not fun.
    Great plan. The OP-for-a-few-levels 30 resist buffs should go, it's well past time. The convenience things can be convenient without the clunky repurchasing mechanism.

    The big mistake was not just getting rid of hold buffs at the same time as adding new buffs, before some people acquired emotional attachment to the clunky hold buffs.
    Last edited by Elfishski; 05-12-2019 at 01:26 AM.
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  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    There are people who play DDO that will do anything - even if it's objectively not fun and makes them bored and burn out - if it means a better XP/min ratio or gives them better stats. It's on us, the developers, to find outliers like that - things that are not fun and make the game worse - and either make them fun or remove them.
    This is true, but the objectively-unfun "anything" in question is casting, wand whipping, or drinking five resists every few minutes, not topping up once an hour. The solution shouldn't be to take the ship buffs away, but to make the non-ship versions less annoying. I don't bother with ship resists on warlocks or epic characters, because both get a one-click resists button. I'm willing to waste a twist on epic characters (and slot wizardry items on my melee ones) just for the QoL of not waiting for the resist energy shared cooldown.

    Also objectively-unfun: Carrying stacks of resist pots on non-strength-based characters. Harper and Falconry* give us the ability to play character weak enough that they have to carry partial stacks at low levels, which means that they need to stop at vendors to replenish those partial stacks more often than they'd need to refresh ship buffs.

    * Which should really be renamed "Falconer", to fit the name scheme of the other trees, but that ship has sailed, made it to Sharn, and been burnt to the waterline.

  15. #135
    Community Member Elements's Avatar
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    Default OP buffs

    I don’t know what buffs are considered OP, but the way I’m interpreting it is that 30 resist buffs are OP. Maybe they are at level 1, but in my experience my guild nobody starts at level 1 we just click on gems from our free daily dice rolls from our previous life and magically we are level 2,3 or 4 depending on how we rolled for the week. Is it that hard to believe we won’t be able to complete the X house P patron by running Tangleroot on elite on toons that have numerous HPL EPL RPL IPL at level 3 with crafted accumulated gear from playing DDO over the last 13+ years? Honestly think about it nothing will change for power gamers nor for the have nots, it’s just nonsensical IMHO to even discuss it at this point, you freed Pandora at this point she’s not going back to her box. Invest time in something else.
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  16. #136
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elements View Post
    I don’t know what buffs are considered OP, but the way I’m interpreting it is that 30 resist buffs are OP. Maybe they are at level 1, but in my experience my guild nobody starts at level 1 we just click on gems from our free daily dice rolls from our previous life and magically we are level 2,3 or 4 depending on how we rolled for the week. Is it that hard to believe we won’t be able to complete the X house P patron by running Tangleroot on elite on toons that have numerous HPL EPL RPL IPL at level 3 with crafted accumulated gear from playing DDO over the last 13+ years? Honestly think about it nothing will change for power gamers nor for the have nots, it’s just nonsensical IMHO to even discuss it at this point, you freed Pandora at this point she’s not going back to her box. Invest time in something else.
    On topic, I agree with you. Leave our buffs alone. We earned access to them via guild leveling.
    Side note: Pandora was the one who opened said box; she was never in it.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    ...when I talk about Legacy Buffs, I am specifically talking about the "touch me for one hour of OP nonsense" buffs that make DDO objectively less fun by existing...
    So when I become a dev, I guess I will suggest removing Reaper mode, because IMO Reaper Mode makes DDO less fun purely by existing.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    To be super ultra super duper actually seriously clear, when I talk about Legacy Buffs, I am specifically talking about the "touch me for one hour of OP nonsense" buffs that make DDO objectively less fun by existing, not the rest of the stuff you're worried about losing. That is why I specifically made sure to state that I'd be placing stuff on the top deck. The Bank, mailbox, whatever that costs plat - it's not fun to have to remember to throw approximately 20 whole platinum down a well every month or whatever so you can check your auctions, but at the very least it's not "better come back here every hour" level of not fun.
    I appreciate where you are coming from, and somewhat agree. The resists are pretty over the top. So are kobolds launching 198 point lightning bolts at 3rd level. So is ticking dots making it impossible to do ANY-DARN-THING. But the thing that irks me most about this part of the discussion is that this means we go back to the bad-old-days of having to target every person in the group and step through a set of resists for each one. I lose those spells points and I lose that time. I'd rather my party worry about that themselves on the front end than having to cast 20 spells before we move 10 feet into the adventure. THAT is the quality of life bit I like from those resists.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Disagree - the buffs themselves are pretty stupidly OP.

    Plus, if we don't replace them, it won't make us look like I'm doing this for purely profit-related reasons, even though I desperately want to do this for "objectively make DDO more fun to play" reasons.
    I agree that cargo resistances should escalate at the same rate as spells (and I also think that spells should scale beyond level 11, as this game has evolved). I agree that renewing the buffs every hour is not fun (in fact, I almost never use them, I have learned to play without needing them) But I also think that we should be able to cast several buff spells at the same time, so we do not have to take so long to cast them (spending the spell points corresponding to all of them, of course). And that devs should expand the cannith crafting system so that we can combine in a single potion or wand several buff-type potions or wands (leaving out of this healing potions/wands, of course, it would only be to combine in a slot and a single casting the typical buffs that are casted at the beginning of the quest)

    Objectively, it is not fun to cast so many buffs at the beginning of the quest, and that for several people individually. It is also not fun to have to carry so many wands, potions, and so on, both because they take up too much inventory, and because it takes too long to cast the buffs.

    If the cargo is removed, please add the stone of change and the trapsmith device to the cannith crafting station, or better yet, add by free (well, by ingame currency) the cargo slots as slots of the new ship buffs system, so we can add these amenities and have space for chests. It's time to add legendary greensteel altars to the new system, too.

    I like the idea of removing the hold cargo and putting the interesting things (tavern, mailbox, auction, bank, etc) on the top deck. But I think that if you do, you would have to tune some other things too.

    In summary, I think a change would be appropriate. But with parallel changes. It's like when turbine wanted to change the CL of the EDs to the level of epic character, at a time when the DC casters had many problems to work at the level. People rebelled because casters were expected to be useless until level 26. If that change had been made, however, helping to compensate for that loss of efficiency would have been a very good change, and well received.

    If you make this change with the cargo hold, polish the accessory details too, please.

    By the way, Lynn, can you suggest to your bosses to create a ship upgrade system? As the system is, it discourages you from buying ships. There are people who would buy shard ships if they knew that later they would only have to pay the difference when it was time to improve it to a superior one. The old system had an upgrade system, I do not know why it was removed in the new...
    Last edited by Iriale; 05-12-2019 at 04:55 AM.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    You're preaching to the choir, here.
    Fair enough. Except that it's pretty much baked into the system that, before each quest, I (personally) have to go back to the bank to juggle inventory and get resists, weapons vs DR, immunities, potions, wands, etc... for that specific quest.

    Getting an OP buff... or whatever OP item etc... makes that trip less onerous because I get quest completion faster.

    Maybe I'm alone here, but Run #1 of a quest... yeah... it's about exploration, fun, going "wow" for the graphics, story etc...

    But the 10th+ Run, I want as much OP stuff (buffs, items, past lives) as I can to power through and get the carrot asap. I've already done the quest once without any ship buffs or OP items etc... ME... the filthy casual... so buff removal (or item / feat / etc... "adjustments") is certainly not about challenging the player.
    Last edited by Dalris_Thane; 05-12-2019 at 04:55 AM.

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