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  1. #1
    Community Member archerforever's Avatar
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    Exclamation Arcane Archer Update

    Hello everyone,

    I think that arcane archer imbues like Banishing, Paralyzing, Smiting and terror should be a 3rd arcane archer imbues.
    Like this we should have:

    Acane Archer 1st Imbues : Elemental Arrows ( Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, SHock, Force )
    Arcane Archer 2nd Imbues : Morphic, Metalline, Aligned
    AND Arcane Archer 3rd Imbues : Banishing, Paralyzing, Smiting, Terror

    Arcane Archer 3rd Imbues in my suggestion (Banishing, Paralyzing, Smiting, Terror) are based and giving Enchantment DC bonuses
    SO
    suggestion : Acane Archer 1st Imbues : Elemental Arrows ( Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Force ) should be based and giving EVOCATION DC bonuses

    Tier 5 of AA tree "improved Elemental Arrows" needs an update. It is a multi selector. One enhancement should be for physical damage bow users ( Improved critical, doubleshot, Ranged Power ) and the other one should be for magical damage, Caster bow users
    Actually "improved Elemental Arrows" is :
    - Improved Elemental Arrows is : Your elemental arrow imbues gain On Critical: 1d10-3d10 elemental damage based on critical multiplier and an additional effect.
    Suggestion : Add damage on Vorpal (maybe AOE) and +2 Damage dice with Elemental Arrows (elemental damage needs a rework too)

    - Corrosive Arrows: Your arrows gain the Destruction ability (on hit)
    Suggestion : Add something on crit, add something on vorpal

    - Flaming Arrows: Your arrows gain On Critical Hit: Target gains 1 stack of Burning (Target takes 1d6 fire damage every 2 seconds for 6 second. This effect can stack 20 times and loses one stack on expiration.)
    Suggestion : on hit target gains 1 stack, on crit target gains 3 stacks, on vorpal target gains 5 stacks

    - Frost Arrows: Your arrows gain On Critical Hit: Target gains 1 stack of Lethargy (You have -1 to all Saving throws. Non-bosses also move and attack 5% slower. This effect stacks up to 5 times.)
    Suggestion : on hit target gains 1 stack, on crit target gains 3 stacks, on vorpal target gains 5 stacks

    - Shock Arrows: Your arrows gain On Critical Hit: Vulnerable (Target takes 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times and loses one stack on expiration.)
    Suggestion 1 : INCREASE the DURATION of the vulnerability, 3 seconds is just nothing, you can t do a crit every 2 seconds and get stacks...
    Suggestion 2 : on hit target gains 1 stack, on crit target gains 3 stacks, on vorpal target gains 5 stacks

    - Force Arrows ??? Add something for force arrows with that Tier 5 of AA tree "improved Elemental Arrows"

    Tier 5 of AA tree "improved Elemental Arrows" ---> "Elemental Damage" needs an update.
    Actually Elemental Damage is : +2 Damage dice with Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Frost, Shock, Flaming, Force) Passive: +5 Universal Spell Power
    I am ok with the "+2 Damage dice with Elemental Arrows" but even with +5 Universal Spell Power it s just not enough.
    Elemental Damage should be something for a caster AA.
    Suggestions :
    - Increase the scaling of damage of elemental arrows based on your corresponding spell power
    - Elemental Arrows can do critical damage based on your spell critical chance and damage
    - Add effects on weapon hit and OFFENSIVE SPELLS --> CC procs (freeze, earthgrab,stun...) / damage/ AOE damage / spellsprocs --> all based on your Evocation DC

    Ter 5 of AA tree : Runebow
    Actually is : Bows you wield gain an additional +2 enhancement bonus. This is considered a Magic Weapon effect. (Does not stack with the spell Enchant Weapons.)
    Suggestion : ADDITIONALLY You can use your WISDOM modifier to hit and for damage when wielding bows. At least add the Wisdom to damage cause we can get zen archery to get wisdom to hit.

    Core Enhancement : Shadow Arrows
    Actually is : Arcane Archer Secondary Imbue Toggle: +5% Doubleshot chance with bows. Activation Cost: 20 spell points. Cooldown: 10 seconds + Passive: Equipped bows gains a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier
    Suggestion : Increase the doubleshot bonus to 20% and more


    Core Enhancement : Mystical Archer
    Actually is : +4 Dexterity, +20% Doubleshot
    Suggestion : Add something for Imbues like an Imbues mastery ---> You can now use 2 imbues at the same time (primary 2x, secondary 2x) AND/OR damage/effects/Aoe/CC/debuff... on weapon hit/crit/vorpal and/or offensive spells depending of the element of your elemental arrows

    Tier 1 of AA tree : Conjure Arrows
    Actually is : Activate to create a stack of returning +1 arrows. These arrows are destroyed when you log out for an extended period of time.
    Suggestion : Is now a PASSIVE ability ---> Your are an Arcane Archer, all arrows you shoot will return.


    Hope you like my suggestions, Thanks
    Last edited by archerforever; 04-25-2019 at 12:46 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Sorry, bows aren't allowed to be good in DDO.

  3. #3
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    As a general thought I would say - Devs are not interested in seeing player's extensive mockups of new trees. If they're paying attention to this subforum at all, they're going to be more interested in generalized "here's what I don't like about AA" feedback than having you try to do their job for them.

  4. #4
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemshaker1941 View Post
    As a general thought I would say - Devs are not interested in seeing player's extensive mockups of new trees. If they're paying attention to this subforum at all, they're going to be more interested in generalized "here's what I don't like about AA" feedback than having you try to do their job for them.
    I think it depends on the dev. I've seen dev comments to the effect of - just saying "I don't like this" or "I don't like this because XYZ" isn't particularly actionable feedback- but I've also seen dev comments that the more specific the feedback such as some of the OPs suggestions venture into the realm of -not possible- or -too much time/effort/testing for feasibility-. Essentially, they seem to accept/take feedback better when it is either full on agreement with what they already plan on doing or changes that are very minuscule such as changing a 2AP per rank enhancement to 1AP per rank or vice versa, or changing something from 3 ranks to two ranks, or tier 3 to tier 4. You get the picture.
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  5. #5
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Default RE: AA update

    I would be already extremely impressed if AA unlock was taking less than 4 APs with 0 direct benefits, it is the single most expensive build choice in DDO currently. Considering it is simultan the least powerful ranged style at cap, kinda akward... ( well not talking darts builds, which kinda never worked well, and is a 100 times less popular than bow archetypes )

    Requirements:

    - Be Ranger or Elf/variant

    The elven version:
    - Spend at least 14 action points regardless if you like the enhancements leading up there
    - 4 AP for the unlock
    - Levels much slower (capstone at level 25)
    - Mandatory Arcanum trained (as if the little spell points or spell pen is useful for the build... another 2AP trashed essentially)

    Non-stacking enhancements:

    - Cores are mutually exclusive, 1 active at a time,
    - Enhancement bonuses do not stack with the bow ( possibly the only Enhancement tree where core abilities do not stack!! )
    - Conjure arrows is a big QoL in the tree, but the bonuses on the arrow once more do not stack (2 APs out once more, we are at 8! now if Elf thats ~10% of all APs !! for just being able to play with sanity->on )
    - Runebow not stacking with the spell so essentially 2 APs for +1 hit and damage, now compare that to some T5 Mechanic ? Some T5s are literally 10 times better than this.

    Outdated- non scaling abilities:

    - True strike: Post enemy AC update, it is pretty useless once leveled past level ~15 ish.
    - Inferno Shot: Damage does not scale with spell power, useless after the first few levels
    - Action Boosts: See true strike, +8 attack for a limited time for 3 APs? Nuts.. / added new choice should be a Doubleshot boost or Spell power boost.

    a) Attack To-Hit boost 10/20/30%
    b) Doubleshot Boost 10/20/30% or Spellpower Boost 10/20/30%
    c) Elemental resist 15/25/35 boost

    Dysfunctional enhancements:

    Banishing Arrows: Last time I checked it was impossible to consistently build debuff stacks with nearly max rof during burst. The stacks fading really need to be revisited, I suggest the stacks fade after 6 seconds rather than 3, the interval should induce less performance hit and have much more gameplay utility.

    Final Strike: Sounds incredible on paper, in game utility is insanely subpar and underperforming. Even on best case scenario by level 30 this is just not worth picking up. There are many better things to click by then, Pin/Whistler...

    Things that work fine

    - Elemental Imbues
    - Slaying Arrow (still very powerful, altho much less since the enemy AC change)
    - Paralyzing Arrows, probably too powerful as is, altho a significant DPS tradeoff.

    Other suggestions:

    See, almost all the relevant stuff from the tree is either
    - an exclusive toggle,
    - an active ability
    - or just the last 2 cores.

    It would be nice if each core granted some passive benefits, so that if you choose the other toggle you did not train it for nothing, which is a recurring theme in AA

    i) Moonbow (T4), a toggle that adds a pinch of light damage would be nice, or an attack that converts your base damage to light type for that single shot.

    ii) Capstone (C6) could be a multi selector allowing either grabbing 4 DEX, or 4 WIS bonus,the tree supports both natively, and the DC arrow builds have little use for DEX if building it with Falconry.

    iv) I would suggest to replace Final Strike (T5) with another shot, maybe not Area of Effect, just some quick multi-shot like ability.

    Curving Shot: "You quickly shoot 3 times with your bow with maximum accuracy, if you roll a 1 to hit, you do not automatically miss, instead get a second roll." Cooldown, 15s. Spell points cost 10.

    Suggestion for new Runebow (T5): +3 enhancement and +1W bonus on equipped bow.



    //It would be really great if you could assign one of your tech savvy Devs to this enhancement facelift, cough, Torc
    Last edited by janave; 04-26-2019 at 04:25 PM.

  6. #6
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    The problem with Arcane Archer is that it is a Universal Tree and was not designed to work perfectly with the class that innately gets it. You have all of these things that scale with spell power and wisdom both of which the Ranger class does a less than optimal job of when compared to other classes. The other two trees are clearly steering the player towards Dexterity as a primary focus.

    The best solution is if the developers would make another ranger enhancement tree with range and dexterity as the primary focus.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kielbasa View Post
    The problem with Arcane Archer is that it is a Universal Tree and was not designed to work perfectly with the class that innately gets it. You have all of these things that scale with spell power and wisdom both of which the Ranger class does a less than optimal job of when compared to other classes. The other two trees are clearly steering the player towards Dexterity as a primary focus.

    The best solution is if the developers would make another ranger enhancement tree with range and dexterity as the primary focus.
    Nah I dont think that AA is fundamentally flawed as a Ranger tree. I think if anything, it just needs WIS-to-combat (hit, dmg, and trance, for bows), in the Cores or as a T5, so Falconry isnt such a handcuff - especially since Falconry is so AP-needy and AA is already as well. That alone would open up some interesting build possibilities for Elven Cleric and Druid caster-archers but also Ranger CC-archers (Entangle + Spiked Growth arent bad if you have the DCs for them) or Rangers with splashes of something else WIS-based like Monk.

    But I agree with people above that say, outside the Imbues, the tree needs some modernization. I dont think getting a DPS+CC+type all at the same time is appropriate, that seems to be eliminating all strategy out of it...but getting your choice of primary + secondary imbue alongside a couple useful clicky attacks and an AB, with cost-appropriate passive stat boosts, would go a long way. Also maybe an EK style mechanic where ranged combat boosts casting and vice versa.

    Ultimately it will take more than just an AA overhaul, there needs to be some tweaks to Bow mechanics in the game engine themselves to make them comparable in potential to GXB/DXB/shuri, but there's still a lot of untapped potential in AA that could be better realized.

  8. #8
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Agree with droid, the AA thematically, and functionally used to be absolutely amazing on release. However, it was designed in an era where tradeoffs were added much more heavily, and DR bypassing was hard to fit in. No augments, epic destinies, epic feats, fewer enhancements and items granting them passively, to swap to a bypass imbue -- with or without the trade off -- was desirable.

    Consider the contrasts for AP per passive grant with up to date trees.

    Since most bonuses are tied to a Bow, lets see a similar tree, I love Mechanic, would use it all day if we could use all the benefits on a "Compound-Mechanical Bow".

    Arcane Archer Passives for Bow

    + 1 Critical multiplier
    + 4 DEX
    + 20% Double shot
    ~ 5% Double shot ( if giving up the DR bypass imbues, one of the primary function of the tree)
    + 7 or 9 d8 elemental damage imbue scaling with spellpower
    + up to 45 spell power ( situational)
    + 2 enhancement on weapon ( +1 only if you have access to the buff from someplace else)



    Mechanic Passives for Great Crossbow

    + 30M Point Blank range with a very high base damage and tons of SA ( can argue if it is mostly defense)
    + INT to DMG
    + 1/1 attack, to-hit and SA dice
    + 2 Critical multiplier
    + 2 DEX, INT
    + 2 SA dice, +2 Damage
    + Sharpshooter line +3 damage +1 SA die / trained, +6 from T5
    + 10 Ranged power (fletching)
    + 10% Doubleshot
    + 3 SA dice
    + 2W [2d8] ( essentially 4W for direct comparison with Bow ! )
    + Vorpal on 19-20 ( insanely strong in Reaper!)
    + 10 Ranged power
    + 30% alacrity

    MC: the capstone can be easily traded for runearm use for +1 gear slot and imbue damage.


    The action points spent are very similar on both trees. AA being the far more expensive when opening from Elf.

    Tried to just focus on DPS passives, but its very early here, so correct me if I missed anything

    Last edited by janave; 04-28-2019 at 04:44 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    AA really isn't the issue, it is bows in general. If bow use was better, AA would naturally get better as a result.

    To fix this, I have spent a lot of time suggesting and asking the devs for help on this. They seem unwilling or simply uninterested in making any significant changes. The last quote from Steel was that IPS and Manyshot are significant hurdles for them. Of course, he did not respond to me saying that ALL ranged combat uses IPS and ALL ranged combat has variants of Manyshot (10k stars and endless fusillade).

    My suggestions were to:

    -Make Manyshot a stance. Currently, all it does if feed into the burst damage the devs are afraid of. A stance can tone down the benefits to like a standing +20RP and +10% DS or something along those lines. It would also require a similar change to 10k stars. Certainly not over the top and fixes one issue.

    -Get rid of Fury shots. It is a huge hurdle in getting bow use on par with other forms of combat. If we want more sustained damage and not burst damage that is great in that one moment, then abysmal thereafter.

    -Add bow specific feats (like the archer one from another thread) that benefit bow users. The goal seems to be that archers are paralyze users; which lends itself better to a wisdom based moncher build than a ranger. So, lost is the Deepwood Tree. If they were to add some bow specific damage there, you would see a lot more versatility and more build options. We should not be pigeon-holed into 1 build because the only thing useful for bow users is paralyze.

    -My take of how the devs want us to play brings me to the conclusion that we need to take away the damage portion of AA (Arrow of Slaying) and replace with something that is more AA focused. My suggestion was a passive ability that boosts the Enchantment DCs of the AA imbues. So, like a +4 to imbue DCs. Something that stacks. My idea is that you move the damage to Deepwood and have the AA be all the imbues and spell like stuff, you remove the ability for folks to have 1 tree for everything. Currently, there is just no need to do anything in Deepwood as a result of having damage and imbues in one tree.'

    I am sure I was suggesting others, but that is what I remember off hand.

    May not be popular as it will break a lot of builds, but will open up more possibilities and remove the wall that we are told is holding back development of bow use.
    Last edited by barecm; 04-30-2019 at 08:51 AM.
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    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    I'll copy what I posted to another thread:

    I'd redo AA completely to focus the tree on CC and other DC-based effects. Buff / add various arrow active attacks rather than imbues, like, make everything as useful as Dispelling and Slaying arrows. Make Inferno Shot actually proc an AoE elemental attack, add other elemental arrows. Turn Smiting / Banishing arrows from imbue to active attack with a DC check for instakill. Give Slaying Arrow a chance / DC check to instakill on a crit. Etc. etc., turn AA into a proper bow-caster. And just take the imbues out completely and leave them to EK where they belong.

    On the other hand, make DWS the supreme weapon damage tree, with bonuses to attack dice, doubleshot, attack speed etc. Move secondary imbues here or make them easier to access without going deep into AA. This way the tree will have a clear purpose, and will synergize well with both other trees, giving players the option to combine good bow damage with spell effects from AA, or with melee damage of Tempest.


    P.S. It also particularly pains me that, if running a pure ranger focused on bows, the only option is to go T5 DWS, AA core, because other combinations are objectively subpar. The DWS core is brilliant, and I'd love to see it have more use.

    So yes, I think AA needs an update, but so does DWS. I'm quite opposed to any suggestions to stuff more physical damage / crit / doubleshot into AA. We have DWS for that, update that if need be to get more physical damage out of bows.

    But above else do something about the ROF.
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  11. #11
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I'll copy what I posted to another thread:




    So yes, I think AA needs an update, but so does DWS. I'm quite opposed to any suggestions to stuff more physical damage / crit / doubleshot into AA. We have DWS for that, update that if need be to get more physical damage out of bows.

    But above else do something about the ROF.
    I agree. I mentioned in other places that the slayer arrow should become a passive +4 bonus to imbue DCs and move the damage to Deepwood. Currently, it is far too easy to get everything from 1 tree and have Deepwood basically there as supplemental skills at best. The potential for Deepwood is awesome. They need to boost the cores by adding some bow specific ranged power. Then, some changes at T5. Take out extra favored enemy as it is not a T5 worthy enhancement. Add Improved Manyshot (description below)

    For Improved Manyshot, I would want to make Manyshot a stance first that adds +20 Doubleshot and +20 Ranged power. Improved Manyshot stance can add +5 (or whatever works) to each of those. Or, even better, we can do an improved, greater, sovereign type of stacking... +2, +5, +10 bonus.
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    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    You guys know elf and Helf got AA also right?

    Not everybody goes ranger...

  13. #13
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    Sorry, bows aren't allowed to be good in DDO.
    Bows are already excellent in DDO.

    Not standing in melee range while critters beat on you counts for a lot.
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  14. #14
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    You guys know elf and Helf got AA also right?

    Not everybody goes ranger...
    I think I get that. The discussion centered around AA fixes, which my opinion would be to move damage out of AA so that it is not a 1 tree that gets everything.
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    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Bows are already excellent in DDO.

    Not standing in melee range while critters beat on you counts for a lot.
    You are lumping bows in with all ranged combat, including casters, who do not have to stand in melee range to be effective. The point is that bow use compared to other ranged combat, sucks. It is not a comparison of ranged combat vs melee.
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    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Yeah, it is not worth mixing in melee, it is an entirely different discussion with a lot of extra variables.

    I think i tried every combination so far that makes even the smallest sense around the bow, but it seems like the really good build options are locked in as exclusive to too many enhancements, that would thematically allow bows to be good.

    I would really like AA to keep the theme to add magic enhancements directly on the bow, it just feels right.

  17. #17
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    You guys know elf and Helf got AA also right?

    Not everybody goes ranger...
    And that's exactly why AA should be changed, to give it more synergy with non-ranger builds, but also to give DWS a boost so that there is a reason to get more than 6 ranger levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Bows are already excellent in DDO.

    Not standing in melee range while critters beat on you counts for a lot.
    You meant to say "crossbows". Bows suck ATM.

    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    I would really like AA to keep the theme to add magic enhancements directly on the bow, it just feels right.
    Arcane archers buff arrows, not bows (in any variation of PnP I've seen, anyway). Think Hawkeye, but with magic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    And that's exactly why AA should be changed, to give it more synergy with non-ranger builds, but also to give DWS a boost so that there is a reason to get more than 6 ranger levels.


    You meant to say "crossbows". Bows suck ATM.


    Arcane archers buff arrows, not bows (in any variation of PnP I've seen, anyway). Think Hawkeye, but with magic.
    The real flaw here is they made Arcane Archer a Ranger tree, whereas the PnP version gets a LOT more mileage out of being a Wizard, which makes sense, given the Elves' favored class is Wizard. The PnP Arcane Archer literally gets absolutely no Ranger-related abilities, but requires the person using it to know arcane magic.

    PnP Imbues are a neat way to change many spells' normally short ranges and replace them with the hundreds of feet bows normally get. It only works on area spells, but that's still pretty awesome. They're also quite useful when using spells or weapons that duplicate your arrows mid-flight.

    To be fair, I like DDO's current imbues, giving Rangers, a weapon class, a reason to get a caster stat, spell power or DCs, makes a lot of sense for what should, in theory, be a wannabe Wizard using a bow.
    The real flaw is how horrendously this damage scales into epics.

    Here's a rather simple suggestion.
    Have the Imbue damage dice increase with a weapon's [W]s.
    That way, a few points in Arcane Archer would go a long way into adding points of damage per hit, while any epic-powered with extra or better [W]s would ALSO make it scale up.

    Archers have a pretty low rate of fire, so, though this sounds like a whole lot of damage (and it is), it doesn't seem unfair, nor does it seem like it would become problematic in heroics, where weapons, feats and skills with +[W]s aren't too common.
    Note that this would also increase any special arrow fired with extra [W]s, which is AOK.

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    Before they go mucking about with AA, they need to fix a fundamental issue with bows:

    Attack rate.

    A single melee attack is a Standard Action. A single ranged attack is a Standard Action. If a character has multiple attacks, they must use a Full Round Action to make them.

    The fundamental issue is that they divorced the attack rates way back when. If you have two 15th level fighters, one armed with a long sword and one armed with a long bow, they are, absent any particular feats or special abilities, supposed to make the same number of attacks in the same amount of time with those weapons.

    Fixing the RoF for bows is step one. Then we can go about fixing the enhancement trees and Manyshot (which, as one poster noted, should absolutely be a stance, like Power Attack).

  20. #20
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    The real flaw here is they made Arcane Archer a Ranger tree, whereas the PnP version gets a LOT more mileage out of being a Wizard, which makes sense, given the Elves' favored class is Wizard. The PnP Arcane Archer literally gets absolutely no Ranger-related abilities, but requires the person using it to know arcane magic.[snip]
    Yea, I really liked the way AA worked in Neverwinter Nights (the old Bioware game). They've moved into this direction when they last updated the tree and made actives more useful, but the tree has still got a long way to go.

    I don't like the (primary) imbues, I think they should stay in the EK tree. Or at least scale with class levels as in that tree, not cost a ridiculous number of AP to be viable. But if they replaced the elemental imbues with cool elemental active attacks, I would be more than happy, as it'd fit the theme better, and also make the class more fun to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by OfElectricMen View Post
    Before they go mucking about with AA, they need to fix a fundamental issue with bows:

    Attack rate.
    I think these are two completely separate issues (and Manyshot is a whole third issue as well) - bows suck for fighters as much as they do for rangers, for example. Maybe they think fixing bow RoF is too much work, no reason not to muck about with AA in the meantime.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

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