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  1. #1
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Default Feat: Advanced Bow Training

    Advanced Bow Training

    Requirements:
    - Proficiency: Shortbow or Longbow
    - BaB: 10
    - Dexterity: 17

    You have undergone rigorous military training with the traditional weapons of war. Longbows and shortbows receive the following bonuses in your hands.

    • Your base attack bonus is equal to your character level when you have a bow equipped. (includes epic levels)
    • Every time you miss with an arrow, you get +4 attack bonus with your next shot, stacks up to 5, or until hitting.


    Rangers are automatically eligible for the feat at level 13.
    Fighters and Monks may chose this feat as a class bonus feat.

  2. #2
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    No.
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  3. #3
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    Lvl 13 is way too low for something like that. Maybe lvl 20.
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  4. #4
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    Interesting idea, but the problem with bows from a DPS standpoint is not a lack of To-Hit. A bow wielder using Dex, Int or Wis as a to-hit/damage stat is going to be able to achieve a comparible To-Hit to other combat methods, to the point where this feat isn't going to help that much.

    The issue with bows is:

    1) Their RoF (outside manyshot) is pure garbage. Just awful. And Manyshot has many disadvantages compared to Endless Fusillade for xbow and shuri RoF + 10k stars.

    2) Their crit profile is awful compared to other ranged weapons and their base damage is not high enough when combined with the RoF deficiencies. Compare end game shuri with bow BDR. The difference is negligible when the shuri is launching 3x the attacks over 120 seconds.

    However, due to having great CC abilities in the AA tree, bows are in a rough spot. You can be an average DPS build or a weak DPS, super strong CC build.

    Part of this is due to inherent problems with how manyshot, IPS, and fury of the wild all work together. Fixing it is challenging. Adding To-Hit to bows isn't going to change any of that, though. To-Hit isn't a problem in this equation.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    I do not see how that feat would help bow users in any way.

    It is not the to-hit that is the problem, it is the slow rate of fire and low damage unless you have fury shot.

  6. #6
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Less RoF with near equivalent To-Hit score is still less hits over time, and less DPS due to grazing hit reduction.

    Multi-classed Archers benefit more of course with weak BaB, so thats a concern when in fact it should weight more for Rangers and "be nice" for every other bow user. This is a hard to crack problem due to the umbrella "ranged" thingy there are so few tools to tweak bow and not every other ranged weapons.

  7. #7
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    Yeah as others have said, the damning thing about bows is low ROF (especially with low BAB) and low damage. You address the BAB problem in your suggestion, but that's only really a long-term problem for caster-class archers

    I'd also add that lack of innate stat-to-dmg is another factor against bows, it limits you to builds that can acquire that elsewhere.

    But I dont think the problems can be fixed with a single feat like Knights Training did for those weapons. I think it has to be a systemic improvement to bows across the board. A big ROF boost is an obvious first step. Others have already pointed out some other major issues and possible fixes.

    I'll point out some of the problems that make it more complicated to try and figure out a solution... One is Manyshot and 10KS. They're a HUGE boost to bow DPS. Which right now takes it from sucky to viable....but if bows were boosted to viable on their own, then Manyshot Monkchers would be able to do CRAZY damage. Any boost to bows would need a slight nerf to Manyshot and 10KS, which wont be received well. But its necessary so that MS Monkchers dont become the single be-all end-all archer build.

    Two is Doubleshot, and they've dug themselves even deeper into this hole with Inquisitive now and DXB getting 100% DS, unlike RXB (grumble grumble). Doubleshot would be a logical place to improve Bow's effective ROF, but any improvements to the DS mechanic could likewise create ripple effects in DXB (and shuriken and GXB Mech) that make them too powerful. Maybe you could implement "bows get 200% effect from DS" just like "RXB get 33%", but that's kinda confusing and potentially overvalues DS compared to all your other stats. And you'd also have to change Manyshot/10KS there too since they utilize DS.

    I think the ultimate solution has to start in the game engine itself, boosting base bow ROF by like 40% across the board before any other feats or bonuses are applied. I also think bows need a bit of crit boost to 19-20/x3 (long) or 18-20/x2 (short) so that they're competitive with other ranged options without being totally identical, and those two profiles are kinda the gold standard right now.

  8. #8
    Hero BurnerD's Avatar
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    I think having a rate of fire or a progressive doubleshot bonus when standing still and firing would be helpful. A stationary archer should have an advantage. Once they move or kite those bonuses are lost.

    Example

    Progessive every 3 seconds while stationary
    ROF
    3 sec - 3/2 (3 arrows per 2 attacks)
    6 sec - 2/1
    9 sec - 5/2
    12 sec -3/1

    This is only an example so don't focus too much on the values...

    Any movement resets the progression.

    Doubleshot could be left as is or modified to enhance the progression.

    Leave manyshot as a burst feature.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Your base attack bonus is equal to your character level when you have a bow equipped. (includes epic levels)
    You could just scroll Tensers Transformation

  10. #10
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    I like the idea of trying to fix bows without just amping up the speed. But the rof is so bad you'd need to just make it never misses for it to matter, and then it would only matter in at cap quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I'll point out some of the problems that make it more complicated to try and figure out a solution... One is Manyshot and 10KS. They're a HUGE boost to bow DPS. Which right now takes it from sucky to viable....but if bows were boosted to viable on their own, then Manyshot Monkchers would be able to do CRAZY damage. Any boost to bows would need a slight nerf to Manyshot and 10KS, which wont be received well. But its necessary so that MS Monkchers dont become the single be-all end-all archer build.
    Right now take it from sucktastic, to below average.

    Manyshot is available to any bow user, no nerf needed regardless of general improvements. I'm not opposed to a 10k bow nerf, but it should not affect shuri.

    I say put manyshot back at 4 arrows, disallow 10k with bows and call it a day. Bows will be **** on as long as there is monkcher fear.
    Last edited by Cantor; 04-24-2019 at 11:38 AM.

  11. #11
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    I would rather see Manyshot fixed to what it is in p&p.

    If not that something like:
    BAB 0-9 Gain 50% Doublshot, cap Doubleshot at 150%.
    BAB 10-19 Gain 100% Doublshot cap Doublshot at 200%
    BAB 20-29 Gain 150% Doublshot cap Doublshot at 250%
    BAB 30 Gain 200% Doublshot cap Doubleshot at 300%

    If not that then a complete overhaul of ranged combat that introduces 3 new feat chains, this would IMO replace most all ranged feat other then Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot

    Archery, Improved Archery, Greater Archery
    Throwing, Improved Throwing, Greater Throwing
    Marksmanship, Improved Marksmanship, Greater Marksmanship

    On style increased damage done per hit substantially, on style increases rate of fire, and the other has some kind of spike (on crit but crit like) damage increase.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I would rather see Manyshot fixed to what it is in p&p.

    If not that something like:
    BAB 0-9 Gain 50% Doublshot, cap Doubleshot at 150%.
    BAB 10-19 Gain 100% Doublshot cap Doublshot at 200%
    BAB 20-29 Gain 150% Doublshot cap Doublshot at 250%
    BAB 30 Gain 200% Doublshot cap Doubleshot at 300%
    I don't like those caps, it means doubleshot from gear is ignored during manyshot. And, I'd really like to get back to the 4 arrows we used to get... how about 10 DS/char level no cap? I'd rather not use BAB due to commoner epic levels, alternatively can we get +BAB in martial destinies? So for example a pure 20 full BAB class in a martial destiny would hit 30 at 30.
    Last edited by Cantor; 04-24-2019 at 11:49 AM.

  13. #13
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I don't like those caps, it means doubleshot from gear is ignored during manyshot. And, I'd really like to get back to the 4 arrows we used to get... how about 10 DS/char level no cap?
    I may not have been clear I want it as a stance like pnp where those values are always on. So at BAB 30 you'er always firing 3 arrows and if you get 100% DSh you'er always firing 4 arrows.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I may not have been clear I want it as a stance like pnp where those values are always on. So at BAB 30 you'er always firing 3 arrows and if you get 100% DSh you'er always firing 4 arrows.
    oh fulltime on. that's maybe too much lol, and I want a reason to play a bow user again.

  15. #15
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Advanced Bow Training

    Requirements:
    - Proficiency: Shortbow or Longbow
    - BaB: 10
    - Dexterity: 17

    You have undergone rigorous military training with the traditional weapons of war. Longbows and shortbows receive the following bonuses in your hands.

    • Your base attack bonus is equal to your character level when you have a bow equipped. (includes epic levels)
    • Every time you miss with an arrow, you get +4 attack bonus with your next shot, stacks up to 5, or until hitting.


    Rangers are automatically eligible for the feat at level 13.
    Fighters and Monks may chose this feat as a class bonus feat.
    Fighters and rangers get full bab and usually don't have an issue with to hit. So what's the real reason for this?
    Having situational bab doesn't give acces to other bab related feats

    A low bab is a price you pay for playing a non combat orientated class (or multiclass build).
    If you want a high bab and don't want to use a tensor scroll every minute or so (assuming it's not in your spellbook or have enh to compensate), then go play a class that does, pure ranger has a full bab and seems tailor made for ranged combat....

    Not having a full bab is usually compensated by skillspoints and skill selection, high level casting or some other utility.

    Besides full bab classes and tensor (scrolls), there are some options in the enh trees.
    This ddowiki page has a list:

    Other then than taking a look at your build for some advise, i can only recomend taking a look at the content level you're running, you might be over reaching, a common problem with the ranged playstyle, it lacks the feedback other playstyles get from their interactions. (Instakill DC's being to low or incoming damage being to high in melee range).
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    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
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  16. #16
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Sure thing, not a one stroke fix. I've read this type of suggestion in a couple of other threads from other player feedback, and found it to have some merit, a higher To-Hit is an angle worth looking at, this variable is not dominated like other direct damage boosts by other ranged weapons ( ..well yet).

    I felt stronger about my other suggestions, eg: like making bows a real THF treated weapon (much like there would be a need to improve qstaves), or exploring new feats that allow larger hit box shots, or even more named arrows that go beyond the +1 conjured theme and utility. Technically, well designed named arrows could make up for the lost off hand and all would be well on that aspect at least.

    Re: To-Hit. I find the amount of grazing hits in leg. content is absurd, with a decent RoF you can sorta neglect it, with low RoF however grazes become extra painful, also losing effectiveness on your active shots with cooldowns.

  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I like it. Its the kind of change which will help close the gap between archery and other DPS forms, without overshooting it and turning archery into the next META leaving everything else behind. If the issue is META ranged DPS is X and archery is X-50, changes like this might make archery X-30. A few more tweaks might bring archery to X-10, and since AA CC is better than other forms of ranged weapons they can be slightly behind in DPS without being laughable DPS.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renvar View Post
    Interesting idea, but the problem with bows from a DPS standpoint is not a lack of To-Hit. A bow wielder using Dex, Int or Wis as a to-hit/damage stat is going to be able to achieve a comparible To-Hit to other combat methods, to the point where this feat isn't going to help that much.

    The issue with bows is:

    1) Their RoF (outside manyshot) is pure garbage. Just awful. And Manyshot has many disadvantages compared to Endless Fusillade for xbow and shuri RoF + 10k stars.

    2) Their crit profile is awful compared to other ranged weapons and their base damage is not high enough when combined with the RoF deficiencies. Compare end game shuri with bow BDR. The difference is negligible when the shuri is launching 3x the attacks over 120 seconds.

    However, due to having great CC abilities in the AA tree, bows are in a rough spot. You can be an average DPS build or a weak DPS, super strong CC build.

    Part of this is due to inherent problems with how manyshot, IPS, and fury of the wild all work together. Fixing it is challenging. Adding To-Hit to bows isn't going to change any of that, though. To-Hit isn't a problem in this equation.
    Concise and well-written. Rangers are my personal favorite, despite some of the issues - and if you follow Strimton's or other tried and true builds, you'll still be quite formidable despite the bow's somewhat lackluster profile compared to others.....
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  19. #19
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    Anyone asking for a PnP version of the feat obviously doesn't know what the PnP version does.

    It doesn't allow the archer to shoot more arrows per turn - though it does allow them to shoot them all in a single attack, which lets them move around a lot more.
    Manyshot also uses a single attack roll, meaning only the first arrow can crit or get sneak attack damage.
    Oh, and it has to be within Point Blank/Sneak Attack range.
    It also deactivates Rapid Shot.

    Used as a stance, it would greatly reduce attack speed, but make all arrows fire off that one attack. Which actually would make it closer to the PnP's intended use - allow you to move around a lot more between shots.

    Manyshot is NOT a DPS feat in PnP. Never was. It DOES allow you to hit a bit more reliably with that 3rd or 4th arrow by reducing the chance to hit on the first and second one, as long as you're not crit-fishing.

  20. #20
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    since AA CC is better than other forms of ranged weapons they can be slightly behind in DPS without being laughable DPS.
    The problem with this is that CC is not native to bow use. It is a feature set of one enhancement tree for one class (and two races). But it is such a concern that it impacts every aspect of bow DPS, even if the player is not in the AA tree. That really pigeonholes bow usage in a way that xbows (or even shuriken) are not.

    I should be able to be a Fighter Kensai bow user (non Elf/helf) and be top shelf ranged DPS on par with a shuri or xbow.

    They could rework the AA and DWS trees to move the DPS for ranged to T5 in DWS (and maybe put some more elsewhere in a T5 in another tree. Maybe a universal.) and move the most powerful CC in AA to T5. So that you can either do great CC or great DPS, but not both. T5 in AA is weird this way. All the CC and imbues are in tiers 3 and 4. Then tier 5 is all DPS. Since AA is the premiere CC tree for bows, put the CC/imbues in T5. Move the DPS to T4. That would not affect CC based builds (they are taking T4 and T5 anyways) but DPS builds could use T4 AA dps stuff and T5 DWS dps stuff to create a viable DPS build.

    It wouldn't take much to get Bow usage from the x-50 that it is now into an x-20 or x-10 range. Some relatively straightforward tree tweaks and you will be a lot better. Combine that with some tweaks to Shiradi (to make it, for bow users at least, competitive with Fury) and you will diversify ranged builds, ED usage, and mitigate the Fury/IPS/Manyshot combo effect bursty issues.
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