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  1. #1
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    Default Time to eliminate the Bravery Bonus

    The whole paradigm of XP balance has changed since Bravery Bonus was introduced as a mechanic. It was meant to encourage players to push into harder content that they arent familiar with, and to reward you for playing different quests and not just grinding a small number of dailies over and over.

    That really isnt necessary anymore. People are routinely running Reaper by default now for higher XP, RXP, better drops, etc. Power creep has made it so "top tier" is the base tier now, and Hard/Normal are just EZ mode. And while people do still gravitate towards the most efficient quests, the first-time bonus mechanic also exists (as well as daily play-through) to encourage diversity outside of the BB mechanic.

    The reason I think BB is bad is because it creates artificial limitations on questing. The optimal approach is to save a quest until you can complete it on Reaper (or Elite) the first time through, which discourages over-level questing and narrows your functional questing range. It also removes the utility of lower difficulty tiers - if you dont even look at a quest until you can ace it on Reaper or Elite, then playing it in Normal or Hard is never going to be a challenging difficulty.

    What I'd like to see is a system where you can first play through quests under-leveled on Normal, then work your way up through the difficulty tiers as you progress and get stronger. This will give a much wider functional quest range for a given character, and let you include N/H/E/R playthroughs more naturally, instead of having to force a trivially-easy H/N run through each life just for the first-time bonuses after you've already finished on R/E.

    To compensate for the lost XP from BB, I'd suggest increasing the first-time bonuses on each difficulty tier, with a weighting towards the higher difficulties so that its still optimal XP/min to play everything on R/E (so that VIP/3rd life still has some value). That should still accomplish the same goal of encouraging players to play varied quests and push to higher difficulties, but not actively restrict them to ONLY being able to do that. And it would be a simpler and more elegant system than the current amalgamation of BB and first time.

  2. #2
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    I will agree that BB needs to be eliminated but for different reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  3. #3
    Community Member Rog's Avatar
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    nope bb pushes the tr grind. the tr grind grind sells pots and points.

  4. #4
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    Whatever the devs decide, BB stays or not, the calculator will always win.

    First time through quests, some (most?) people explore, trying things out, have a good time with the new content.

    Second time through quests, some (most?) people check the wiki, the boards, see what they missed.

    Third+ time through, for some (most?) people, the luster is gone. It's now carrot time. How do I get that carrot as efficiently as possible? Right now, it's BB.

    Eliminate BB? Someone with a calculator will go "Ok. You're a new L8. So, do quest A on Normal first. Then quest B on Elite. Then quest C on Hard. Then quest D..."

    If you think playing whack-a-mole on BB, or quests (cough, amber temple, cough) to regulate exp gain is a good way to spend your time? Go for it.

    But, at the end of the day... the challenge seekers will always go for the challenge, the explorers will always go for smelling the flowers, and the rest... will go to the calculator and do the quests they've done 3...10... 20+ times... the fastest way possible (hence the need for wikis and boards).

    But feel free to eliminate BB. I'll check the next post by a calculator person which will tell me the new "most efficient way" when that happens.
    Last edited by Dalris_Thane; 04-18-2019 at 05:06 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The whole paradigm of XP balance has changed since Bravery Bonus was introduced as a mechanic. It was meant to encourage players to push into harder content that they arent familiar with, and to reward you for playing different quests and not just grinding a small number of dailies over and over.
    ... the first-time bonus mechanic also exists (as well as daily play-through) to encourage diversity outside of the BB mechanic.

    The reason I think BB is bad is because it creates artificial limitations on questing.

    What I'd like to see is a system where you can first play through quests under-leveled on Normal, then work your way up through the difficulty tiers as you progress and get stronger.

    To compensate for the lost XP from BB, I'd suggest increasing the first-time bonuses on each difficulty tier, with a weighting towards the higher difficulties so that its still optimal XP/min to play everything on R/E (so that VIP/3rd life still has some value). That should still accomplish the same goal of encouraging players to play varied quests and push to higher difficulties, but not actively restrict them to ONLY being able to do that. And it would be a simpler and more elegant system than the current amalgamation of BB and first time.
    I disagree with pretty much everything you stated. I don't think you know much about how other people play.

    I myself run at level reaper and have flexibility to run 2 levels above or 2 levels below whenever I WANT.
    I hardly ever repeat a quest in heroics, unless I want to, and only occasionally in epics.
    If I want to farm, I farm. If I want to run challenges I do. If I want to bypass BB I do. (The key point is that I decide what I do).

    This is just another example of someone who refuses to accept the game that is, and promote a hypothetical variant of a game that would inevitably fall way short of pleasing everyone (anyone).

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    I will agree that BB needs to be eliminated but for different reasons.
    I agree in this same manner.

    And it needs to be replaced by a permanent buddy bonus.

  7. #7
    Community Member K_9's Avatar
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    Remove BB and reaper bonus and it will solve so much that is currently wrong. Replace with higher 1st time bonus and perm buddy bonus.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The whole paradigm of XP balance has changed since Bravery Bonus was introduced as a mechanic. It was meant to encourage players to push into harder content that they arent familiar with, and to reward you for playing different quests and not just grinding a small number of dailies over and over.

    That really isnt necessary anymore. People are routinely running Reaper by default now for higher XP, RXP, better drops, etc. Power creep has made it so "top tier" is the base tier now, and Hard/Normal are just EZ mode. And while people do still gravitate towards the most efficient quests, the first-time bonus mechanic also exists (as well as daily play-through) to encourage diversity outside of the BB mechanic.

    The reason I think BB is bad is because it creates artificial limitations on questing. The optimal approach is to save a quest until you can complete it on Reaper (or Elite) the first time through, which discourages over-level questing and narrows your functional questing range. It also removes the utility of lower difficulty tiers - if you dont even look at a quest until you can ace it on Reaper or Elite, then playing it in Normal or Hard is never going to be a challenging difficulty.

    What I'd like to see is a system where you can first play through quests under-leveled on Normal, then work your way up through the difficulty tiers as you progress and get stronger. This will give a much wider functional quest range for a given character, and let you include N/H/E/R playthroughs more naturally, instead of having to force a trivially-easy H/N run through each life just for the first-time bonuses after you've already finished on R/E.

    To compensate for the lost XP from BB, I'd suggest increasing the first-time bonuses on each difficulty tier, with a weighting towards the higher difficulties so that its still optimal XP/min to play everything on R/E (so that VIP/3rd life still has some value). That should still accomplish the same goal of encouraging players to play varied quests and push to higher difficulties, but not actively restrict them to ONLY being able to do that. And it would be a simpler and more elegant system than the current amalgamation of BB and first time.
    Talk to the Bravery Marshall & pause it then.

    Problem solved.

  10. #10
    Community Member DRoark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    People are routinely running Reaper by default now for higher XP, RXP, better drops, etc.
    The reason I think BB is bad is because it creates artificial limitations on questing. .
    No, we're not, some of the players are always running R1+ every TR, but it's not the majority of the groups. Don't make a blanket statement. It's not accurate.

    There's always been an artificial limitation on questing, BB or not. Unless they add scaling, to let people run lower quests for the same XP (such as GW2 scaling to the level of the zone), that won't change.
    Last edited by DRoark; 04-18-2019 at 10:39 PM.

  11. #11
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    Practically everyone runs r1 from 2nd life onwards, maybe dropping down to elite for certain quests if they cant get a party. Its like...50% extra base xp? No reason to not get that really. And getting some rxp is always nice.

    The only people who dont run r1 on a regular basis are newbies who are running normal because they can't open elite or don't know about the BB or first life alts.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    Talk to the Bravery Marshall & pause it then.

    Problem solved.
    This seems like the best solution for the OP and the others who don't like it.

  13. #13
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    I don't want BB and by logical extension hard/elite streak removed because I don't want to have to earn another 80% XP in order to get through a life. The game is grindy enough without slowing down the leveling process significantly, so for me this is a terrible suggestion.

    If BB and streak XP was replaced somehow by adding to quest XP this would be fine, but let's be realistic: If a vocal minority somehow manages to get BB and streak xp removed from the game, you have to know that it won't be replaced anywhere at all.
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    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  14. #14
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    I think there are good reasons for the so-called "bravery bonus".
    At first, some have an issue with the name for this bonus because the question is what is brave?
    But the question is not what is "brave" the question is have you a better name for it?
    Anyway, the main reason I see for this name is that it encourages players to play different quests.
    I remember the past where groups farmed experience-cow quests over and over again and even not getting the rewards at the quest giver for more speed.
    This is in my opinion objectively not much fun and it is GOOD that the introduced bonuses make this play style no longer the most effective if you want character progression!!!
    This was for me boring and exhausting and I'm glad this is mostly removed from the game!
    And because I still see players farming certain quests with "window farming" (like shadow crypt) you see it has obviously good reasons for such first-time bonuses.
    Repeating things over and over again is for most people boring and to make this effective for progression leads into an effectively boring game.

    And for those who still dont comprehend it, you get so-called "bravery bonus" because you play a quest at the character level this quest is designed for.
    And this is the normal quest level +2.
    If you chose a higher difficulty with this the CR of the monsters in the quest changes to higher numbers, this means the monsters hit points, damage saves, etc. are a challenge for higher level players.
    The question is of course always if the monsters are challenging enough or too easy for you.
    And you also get a higher level reward out of the chests because the Dungeon is designed for a character that is two levels higher...

    It is, of course, a bit questionable that the level range is extended in epic level quests so you get bravery bonus with the normal quest level +3 (level 20 quests) or +4 (for 21 and higher quests).
    But also this has good reasons in my opinion because this gives you more flexibility with grouping and therefore also no power level penalty exists in epic.
    It is in my opinion very important to make it possible for players to group and play together in an MMO like DDO.
    And you should have restrictions and penalties that make grouping more difficult only if you have very good reasons for it!

    Therefore I absolutely against a remove of the so-called "bravery bonus" and even more I would suggest making it consistent with the reaper experience.
    This means if you play a quest at the effective quest level you get 100% reaper experience plus the bonuses for playing it the first time and not repeating it.
    And this for the simple reason that you should feel reasonably rewarded if you play the game in a difficulty that is challenging for you and fun because you dont repeat the same thing over and over again.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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  15. #15
    Community Member Drunkendex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxarhamar View Post
    Talk to the Bravery Marshall & pause it then.

    Problem solved.
    Best advice in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    I disagree with pretty much everything you stated. I don't think you know much about how other people play.

    If I want to farm, I farm. If I want to run challenges I do. If I want to bypass BB I do. (The key point is that I decide what I do).

    This is just another example of someone who refuses to accept the game that is, and promote a hypothetical variant of a game that would inevitably fall way short of pleasing everyone (anyone).
    What I do, plus i agree on last sentence.

  16. #16
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    If you don't want Bravery Bonus, there is a Marshall who will turn it off for you.

    Otherwise, freedom of choice must be preserved for other players.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    One of the ideas behind bravery bonus was to help "reduce grind". Before bravery bonus players used the E/H/Nx7 approach to earn XP in the shortest amount of time.

    There was reasons for this at the time, that have been recently changed and in my opinion if the recent favor changes were implemented back then, we may have seen less of the grinding the same quest.

    The Bravery Bonus does give incentive to run quests at a higher difficulty. But I think the "first time" bonus is a big draw for many.

    Now, my opinion on Reaper difficulties is that the XP bonus should have been the same as Elite both for Bravery and First Time. The additional Rxp of each skull should have been the only draw. I was not in favor of adding the Reaper Trees as I really wanted this difficulty to be available for those that wanted the feel that the dungeon was really set on killing them.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The simple way to do this is to ramp up first time completion by 50%. This encourages once and done. People farming will still get base + quest bonuses but wouldnt get the 50% for first time on completion 2-infinity.

    Freedom of choice is not only preserved here, it is improved, as now youre not tethered to a specific difficulty setting for maxing out first time completion.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-19-2019 at 08:45 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    I don't want BB and by logical extension hard/elite streak removed because I don't want to have to earn another 80% XP in order to get through a life. The game is grindy enough without slowing down the leveling process significantly, so for me this is a terrible suggestion.

    If BB and streak XP was replaced somehow by adding to quest XP this would be fine, but let's be realistic: If a vocal minority somehow manages to get BB and streak xp removed from the game, you have to know that it won't be replaced anywhere at all.
    I agree with this. I really dislike the BB mechanic as far as limiting choices in which quests and what difficulty you play it on, but it's a lot of exp and I don't want to give that up.
    I also agree that the first time reaper bonus should be the same as elite, so for 1-and-done elite is a real option. Farmers will still do both to get first time on each.

  20. #20
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rog View Post
    bb pushes the tr grind. the tr grind grind sells pots and points.
    This is true.

    Droid, I agree, but I wouldn't stop there, I'd include reaper.

    Too many points on both sides of this topic. So... It won't happen.

    Sig is TBDL. Too busy being not busy.

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