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  1. #21
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    I am glad you brought this up. So you want to spec for meteor swarm. At 18th level, you are probably 40 pts deep into your main fire line and then you go 22 to 24 points into acid (you are still not as fully spec'd in your top spell as the other three elemental specialists, but whatever. And, its my understanding you also need to buff force). That leaves you around 4 to 6 enhancement pts starting your 18th level with only another 8 left to pick up before you hit 20. .

    You are spec'd for meteor swarm and it will work for you, now do you really want to put those extra points into tiefling as opposed to eldritch knight? With Every level you earn at this point you outgrow scorch even more. This was my dilemma with tiefling. I would in fact play at level 20 while others I played with caught up before TR too, and still I only ever could justify buying the core enhancements. IF I was lightning/fire spec'd, my casting level of Meteor at 20 was level 10.

    Now you might say, make your main acid... and that is a better approach in my opinion too. But then I ask myself why play the race that buffs fire then? Play the race that buffs my main spell (i.e. dragonborn or something else). I blew like 3 million gold and also dragon blood potions playing around with enhancements and spells trying to make the tiefling at heroic with fire work for me. I could not. And this is before considering all the fire resistant/proof mobs and bosses.
    with elemental apotheosis you don't need the teifling scorch, the first tick of meteor swarm debuffs their fire immunity, then they take the other 4 ticks of bludgeoning and 3 ticks of fire damage

  2. #22
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    with elemental apotheosis you don't need the teifling scorch, the first tick of meteor swarm debuffs their fire immunity, then they take the other 4 ticks of bludgeoning and 3 ticks of fire damage
    1) you don't get that until 20
    2) you can take it into epic and not use the form to avoid the penalties to SP and meteor DPS
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    T.... I still did well in high reapers as I had DCs in the 100-110 range, but I could feel the difference between builds where I had 110-120 DCs. Tiefling is still one of the best options for DPS casters, and #1 for anything fire spec.

    .....
    Well, you are out of my league here. My Heroic DC's are never over 100. And if this is what others have then I am truly jealous. I still dont think killing mobs with two casts is preferable to just one. Or that doing that confined to cone width and range is also preferable.
    Last edited by tinyelvis; 04-26-2019 at 04:08 PM.

  4. #24
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    Well, you are out of my league here. My Heroic DC's are never over 100. And if this is what others have then I am truly jealous. I still dont think killing mobs with two casts is preferable to just one. Or that doing that confined to cone width and range is also preferable.
    Obviously I was referring to end game high reapers with my DCs. In heroics not worth the effort to run high reapers, though you can get the dcs for that easily too.

    As for the amounts of casts, if things are in one hit range, you simply don't prep with scorch unless you need to apply vuln. I also did not find the cone that limiting at all, though I guess I'm used to lining stuff up for IPS, so approaching mob groups based on composition to maximize how many I hit is just habit. Even if you still use apothecary, improved scorch is still giving you 5% more damage, which matters in harder difficulties and bosses.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    Obviously I was referring to end game high reapers with my DCs. In heroics not worth the effort to run high reapers, though you can get the dcs for that easily too.

    As for the amounts of casts, if things are in one hit range, you simply don't prep with scorch unless you need to apply vuln. I also did not find the cone that limiting at all, though I guess I'm used to lining stuff up for IPS, so approaching mob groups based on composition to maximize how many I hit is just habit. Even if you still use apothecary, improved scorch is still giving you 5% more damage, which matters in harder difficulties and bosses.
    Next life I may tiefling again and take a second look. If there is a reliable way to one or two shot mobs after an improved scorch prep at high reapers then it is very worth it to run them in heroics. Currently, I favor an R3 one above normal level run in heroics (for example run wiz king on r3 when I am at level 13). and I do this using the right spell for the job. You net twice the reaper points by level ten than running say reaper 1 at the same level as normal. If, as you imply I can get the damage output for higher skull reapers in heroic with the scorch prep (I admit I am skeptical... thoughts of Sins of Attrition run through my mind.) then I will be convinced. Especially since it sounds like I spec my Spell Power higher than you in heroic.

  6. #26
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    You're crossing some lines. You can't 1-2 shot mobs in high reaper - you'll only be doing that in r1-3 while still doing serious damage in 4-6. 7+ you should be asking yourself if you should be a DC caster instead so you can no-fail control/insta-kill while the party does the DPS as it just isn't worth the SP to you. The debuffing Improved Scorch provides helps no matter the difficulty - 5% more DPS is more DPS, and the combination of that along with +2 more levels to your Meteor Storm as you don't need to use Apothecary to bypass (unless you really do need to stay out of range of Scorch but still need to hit a fire immune target) helps carry it a bit farther. It's part of how in Gilga's thread he's throwing over 21K on a DBF (though he kicked his Meteor in the teeth by speccing lightning). If you are looking to level through low reapers (be it heroic or epic past lives), or are just a more casual player, DPS sorc shines, and Tiefling helps make that happen. If high reapers is your goal, then DC casting is the way to go.

    Heroic leveling multiple scorches and eventually fireball/firewall easily carry you to 12. After that hybrid Lightning and Fire -- Tiefling lets you simply equip just a Electric Lore and still be full power on both -- as Ball Lightning and Chain Lightning are insane. Scorch stops being your DPS as those two will be your main spells unless you run across immune targets, which you then lean on Scorch and Fireball. Once you hit 14, you get Delayed Blast Fireball, which will be your best spell for tight clumps and Chain Lightning for more spread out ones, with Scorch still being your guaranteed damage button and to boost DPS on bosses. At 18 you have a choice: Take Mass Hold Monster so you can further boost clumped trash killing power, or Meteor and going full Fire mode as it melts the faces of even bosses. At 20 you swap out electric spells for CC/debuffs and just full fire and DC cast mode. CC as your first spell when you run up. When there are one-offs/stragglers, use your insta-kills, and when there are groups nuke'em. As you are now running across tight groups of CCed mobs much more often, Scorch becomes a main spell again to both guarantee whatever your hitting is taking fire damage if not rolling Apothecary as well as boosting DBF/Meteor damage possibly saving you casts of those expensive spells. Had many quests where I had over 10 times the kill count of the next highest, and never had less than another player outside of high-reaper end game.

    Between being a 5% boost to some of the best damaging spells in the game (DBF, Meteor, and Draconic attacks), giving you Fire damage in Heroics that you couldn't effectively use at all before as well as giving the option of effectively rolling outside of Apothecary to avoid punching Meteor and your SP bar as hard, 8% crit chance, more spell power, a legendary level spell, a no-save knockdown guard at level 1... Tiefling is great. The Sorc pass will likely remove most if not all the penalties of the cores, so that would mean there would be no reason avoid Apothecary, but would still want Improved Scorch for the DPS boost. Plus for those that do multi-spec (which the pass might encourage even more with penalty changes), the spell power double dip is strong.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    You're crossing some lines. You can't 1-2 shot mobs in high reaper - you'll only be doing that in r1-3 while still doing serious damage in 4-6. 7+ you should be asking yourself if you should be a DC caster instead so you can no-fail control/insta-kill while the party does the DPS as it just isn't worth the SP to you. The debuffing Improved Scorch provides helps no matter the difficulty - 5% more DPS is more DPS, and the combination of that along with +2 more levels to your Meteor Storm as you don't need to use Apothecary to bypass (unless you really do need to stay out of range of Scorch but still need to hit a fire immune target) helps carry it a bit farther. It's part of how in Gilga's thread he's throwing over 21K on a DBF (though he kicked his Meteor in the teeth by speccing lightning). If you are looking to level through low reapers (be it heroic or epic past lives), or are just a more casual player, DPS sorc shines, and Tiefling helps make that happen. If high reapers is your goal, then DC casting is the way to go.

    Heroic leveling multiple scorches and eventually fireball/firewall easily carry you to 12. After that hybrid Lightning and Fire -- Tiefling lets you simply equip just a Electric Lore and still be full power on both -- as Ball Lightning and Chain Lightning are insane. Scorch stops being your DPS as those two will be your main spells unless you run across immune targets, which you then lean on Scorch and Fireball. Once you hit 14, you get Delayed Blast Fireball, which will be your best spell for tight clumps and Chain Lightning for more spread out ones, with Scorch still being your guaranteed damage button and to boost DPS on bosses. At 18 you have a choice: Take Mass Hold Monster so you can further boost clumped trash killing power, or Meteor and going full Fire mode as it melts the faces of even bosses. At 20 you swap out electric spells for CC/debuffs and just full fire and DC cast mode. CC as your first spell when you run up. When there are one-offs/stragglers, use your insta-kills, and when there are groups nuke'em. As you are now running across tight groups of CCed mobs much more often, Scorch becomes a main spell again to both guarantee whatever your hitting is taking fire damage if not rolling Apothecary as well as boosting DBF/Meteor damage possibly saving you casts of those expensive spells. Had many quests where I had over 10 times the kill count of the next highest, and never had less than another player outside of high-reaper end game.

    Between being a 5% boost to some of the best damaging spells in the game (DBF, Meteor, and Draconic attacks), giving you Fire damage in Heroics that you couldn't effectively use at all before as well as giving the option of effectively rolling outside of Apothecary to avoid punching Meteor and your SP bar as hard, 8% crit chance, more spell power, a legendary level spell, a no-save knockdown guard at level 1... Tiefling is great. The Sorc pass will likely remove most if not all the penalties of the cores, so that would mean there would be no reason avoid Apothecary, but would still want Improved Scorch for the DPS boost. Plus for those that do multi-spec (which the pass might encourage even more with penalty changes), the spell power double dip is strong.
    Seems to me, you are backing off your comments now. Dont need fire at all to one to two shot trash in reaper 1 to 3 (using water and electric), and currently can do this at better range with circular AOE and no need for 15 or 20 racial points spent. Sounds to me, like you are saying with tiefling you can do this now if you prep everything properly... and I suppose I can see that and agree. But How is that better? Talking only heroics here.

    I am not interested in prepping mobs regularly with CC. I am not interested in DC casting outside of Evocation. There already is a caster that does that... it's called a wizard (every few years with this game we seem to go down this road). If I cant build toward a viable solo R10 sorc, then for me there really is no point in playing. I find it tough in many cases on R3 currently to play CC free... hell to just stay alive (tough is not a bad thing though. Easy is boring). I want a way to do that and more as I trudge though the next 20 or 30 reincarnations. All the tiefling seems to give is sort of a way to play with fire almost as well as other sorcs with other elements. Can we expect much more... something has to be the least best.

    btw, i heard the capstone was fixed.
    Last edited by tinyelvis; 04-28-2019 at 04:37 AM.

  8. #28
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    Seems to me, you are backing off your comments now. Dont need fire at all to one to two shot trash in reaper 1 to 3 (using water and electric), and currently can do this at better range with circular AOE and no need for 15 or 20 racial points spent. Sounds to me, like you are saying with tiefling you can do this now if you prep everything properly... and I suppose I can see that and agree. But How is that better? Talking only heroics here.

    I am not interested in prepping mobs regularly with CC. I am not interested in DC casting outside of Evocation. There already is a caster that does that... it's called a wizard (every few years with this game we seem to go down this road). If I cant build toward a viable solo R10 sorc, then for me there really is no point in playing. I find it tough in many cases on R3 currently to play CC free... hell to just stay alive (tough is not a bad thing though. Easy is boring). I want a way to do that and more as I trudge though the next 20 or 30 reincarnations. All the tiefling seems to give is sort of a way to play with fire almost as well as other sorcs with other elements. Can we expect much more... something has to be the least best.

    btw, i heard the capstone was fixed.
    I wouldn't call using fire from 1 to 30 "backing off" just because I use some other elements as well for a fraction of the time, especially since I mentioned it before in my replies to you as well. It was quite obvious that I was referring to more than just heroics, though even just in Heroics, Tiefling means if you do X element + Fire, fire gives you a backup that guarantees you'll never have a time where you need to twiddle your thumbs due to immune targets as they can bypass everything. Or just cherry pick your quests and do whatever as they're just Heroics.

    I also find your CC comments confusing. CC is a big part of Sorc - if you don't want to use CC, then of course you can't build towards viable "solo R10". And if you are wanting to do 20-30 heroic lives in R10, you are a glutton for punishment. That is a huge amount of effort for quests that will give a fraction of what you get at end game (even after BB/first time), and it is much easier to find parties for high-reaper at cap. I consider R3 to be the "sweet spot" of speed and XP for leveling, and while I still do R5-7 at times almost every life while leveling for a small amount of extra challenge (even had a life I went through on R10s), just isn't worth the extra time. Though all of that is moot as I doubt you plan on doing 20-30 lives as a Tiefling Sorc or any single race/class combo (unless you're just grinding RXP, which then see previous sentences).

    I don't think a goal to not use CC at all is a good one at all - sure, you can squeak by on Heroics without it, but there is no reason to leave one of the main reasons casters are so powerful on the table. The ultimate goal would be max possible DPS and max possible DCs, though feats force a compromise. I've done both sides of the fence, and I think the conclusion is pretty clear: First half of Reaper difficulties, DPS caster wins, and the second (higher) half DC caster wins. But I was certainly very effective on R10s as a build specced for DPS.

    As for the capstone being "fixed", no longer on my sorc life, but will be sure to test when I play one again. Once you finish Heroics and use the capstone stance, Imp Scorch is still a DPS booster, which if not needed for trash for some reason is still quite helpful on bosses. I guess then it just becomes the question of how that and all the other things Tiefling gives you compares to whatever other tree you were looking at.
    Last edited by DrawingGuy; 04-28-2019 at 11:09 PM.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    I wouldn't call using fire from 1 to 30 "backing off" just because I use some other elements as well for a fraction of the time, especially since I mentioned it before in my replies to you as well. It was quite obvious that I was referring to more than just heroics, though even just in Heroics, Tiefling means if you do X element + Fire, fire gives you a backup that guarantees you'll never have a time where you need to twiddle your thumbs due to immune targets as they can bypass everything. Or just cherry pick your quests and do whatever as they're just Heroics.

    I also find your CC comments confusing. CC is a big part of Sorc - if you don't want to use CC, then of course you can't build towards viable "solo R10". And if you are wanting to do 20-30 heroic lives in R10, you are a glutton for punishment. That is a huge amount of effort for quests that will give a fraction of what you get at end game (even after BB/first time), and it is much easier to find parties for high-reaper at cap. I consider R3 to be the "sweet spot" of speed and XP for leveling, and while I still do R5-7 at times almost every life while leveling for a small amount of extra challenge (even had a life I went through on R10s), just isn't worth the extra time. Though all of that is moot as I doubt you plan on doing 20-30 lives as a Tiefling Sorc or any single race/class combo (unless you're just grinding RXP, which then see previous sentences).

    I don't think a goal to not use CC at all is a good one at all - sure, you can squeak by on Heroics without it, but there is no reason to leave one of the main reasons casters are so powerful on the table. The ultimate goal would be max possible DPS and max possible DCs, though feats force a compromise. I've done both sides of the fence, and I think the conclusion is pretty clear: First half of Reaper difficulties, DPS caster wins, and the second (higher) half DC caster wins. But I was certainly very effective on R10s as a build specced for DPS.

    As for the capstone being "fixed", no longer on my sorc life, but will be sure to test when I play one again. Once you finish Heroics and use the capstone stance, Imp Scorch is still a DPS booster, which if not needed for trash for some reason is still quite helpful on bosses. I guess then it just becomes the question of how that and all the other things Tiefling gives you compares to whatever other tree you were looking at.
    On a fire sorc right now, and it works exactly as it says it does, it raises your fire spells by 1 and lowers other elements by 3, so you end up 2 lower for meteor swarm, since its earth and fire.

  10. #30
    Community Member Itchybeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    /snip/ The ability to break immunity with Scorch is fantastic - right up until the point you hit level 12 Sorcerer and can do it anyway. The same is true for high heroic/epic Druids/Sorcerers due to their in-class immunity breaking. /snip/.
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you explain the part about "level 12 sorc can do it anyway?" cuz I've looked on the wiki, and I must not be seeing it. I have a friend who wants to do a Tief Sorc next life with splashing other stuff (he's not interested in Pure sorc).

    Thank you.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itchybeard View Post
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you explain the part about "level 12 sorc can do it anyway?" cuz I've looked on the wiki, and I must not be seeing it. I have a friend who wants to do a Tief Sorc next life with splashing other stuff (he's not interested in Pure sorc).

    Thank you.
    awaken elemental weakness, all 4 savants get it as a T5 ability, makes a single mob take 15% more damage from your main element, and remove their immunity if they are immune

  12. #32
    Community Member Itchybeard's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thank You

    Ahhh gotcha! I haven't played Sorcs for several years, so that T5 ability completely went over my head. I probably didn't read it thoroughly Thank you.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    In regards to breaking fire immunity, I recently TRd into a Tiefling Sorcerer. I started out going fire/acid, leaning heavily on the tier 1 burning hands and acid spray, and that worked. At level 6, I switched most of my enhancement points over to the Tiefling tree. I have to say that that is a really well designed enhancement tree, and the flaming eyes are just really cool, but back on point...

    The ability to break fire immunity at level 6 (or earlier) is awesome! It has made a huge difference in quests with fire immune mobs. Without this, you have to slog through casting spells inefficiently from another element, invariably running out of spell points, or you have to constantly kite while you wait for cooldowns to finish on the couple of spells you do have that work. This was the main issue I had with playing a Sorcerer. It's going to be hard for me to play a fire sorc now as anything but a Tiefling. I'm definitely enjoying it.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    I am glad you brought this up. So you want to spec for meteor swarm. At 18th level, you are probably 40 pts deep into your main fire line and then you go 22 to 24 points into acid (you are still not as fully spec'd in your top spell as the other three elemental specialists, but whatever. And, its my understanding you also need to buff force). That leaves you around 4 to 6 enhancement pts starting your 18th level with only another 8 left to pick up before you hit 20. .

    You are spec'd for meteor swarm and it will work for you, now do you really want to put those extra points into tiefling as opposed to eldritch knight? With Every level you earn at this point you outgrow scorch even more. This was my dilemma with tiefling. I would in fact play at level 20 while others I played with caught up before TR too, and still I only ever could justify buying the core enhancements. IF I was lightning/fire spec'd, my casting level of Meteor at 20 was level 10.

    Now you might say, make your main acid... and that is a better approach in my opinion too. But then I ask myself why play the race that buffs fire then? Play the race that buffs my main spell (i.e. dragonborn or something else). I blew like 3 million gold and also dragon blood potions playing around with enhancements and spells trying to make the tiefling at heroic with fire work for me. I could not. And this is before considering all the fire resistant/proof mobs and bosses.
    So, I just capped from 1-30 on my Tiefling sorc life (I have a handful of mostly irrelevant past lives on that toon), and I honestly think you couldn't be more wrong.

    1) Ash gives *any* scorch you use the ability to open up immune and resistant mobs to your damage.

    2) Your fire spec has Scorch as a cheap SLA (thus, you can freely apply all metas).

    So, you come into a room full of Fire Elementals. Oh noes! You say. Then you go around a corner, wait for them to pile up, hit them with scorch, and then scorch again, and then fireball, and Bob's your uncle.

    Got a boss immune to fire? Boop him in the nose with a 2SP firebolt and then hammer away.

    It only gets better in epics, honestly. The only time it was hard for me was in the desert that is the mid-20s, but that's a gear problem, not a spec problem.

  15. #35

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    Montegue's experience mirror's my own, and I echo his comments about the gear gap. Fire was a superb leveling experience, especially when coupled with 20+ AP in EK and using Prismatic Ray/Spray and charms in higher skulls.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itchybeard View Post
    Ahhh gotcha! I haven't played Sorcs for several years, so that T5 ability completely went over my head. I probably didn't read it thoroughly Thank you.
    Only problem is that it has a long cool down and only effects one target. Usually have to save it for a boss. That leads to how do you deal with a flock of fire mephits or pack of hell hounds.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    Only problem is that it has a long cool down and only effects one target. Usually have to save it for a boss. That leads to how do you deal with a flock of fire mephits or pack of hell hounds.
    My solution to that on fire sorc, previous to tiefling, was to also take both acid splash and ball lightning. even without gearing for them or spending any points in air or acid savant they will kill mobs after a few casts. That, or a well placed circle of death.

  18. #38
    Community Member Kodwraith's Avatar
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    I'm leveling up one of these now and wanted to give some thoughts:

    Enhancements:
    I did the same as another poster and went Fire until I had 16 AP and then switched into Tiefling tree to get improved scorch. Breaking FR in an AOE at level 4ish makes this build insanely powerful. I only wish Scorch took Enlarge. This build doesn't have hardly any racial AP, but I found that the first 4 levels went by fast enough I didn't much care.

    Gearing:
    Duality is awesome! To the point of being nigh essential. It's a huge dmg boost. I happened to have a 3 piece Abishai set lying around that I also use. The caster boosting is enough to notice and I don't miss the 3 items slots much. I'm CCing fire ring (combustion + fire lore) and I'm running about 220 fire SP at level 8. The Tiefling Scorch SLA with everything turned on is doing about 600 on a crit. Evasion is still a big problem on some mobs.

    Not also the this build is absolutely a glass cannon. You burn everything while backpedalling.
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