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Thread: Amber Temple

  1. #1
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    Default Amber Temple

    Why did SSG change Amber Temple, again? Is there something wrong with really good players being able to complete the quest quickly on high-level reaper? The various explanations I am hearing from other players don't make sense to me.

  2. #2
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    The problem was that it had nothing to do with beeing good players.

    By fishing for the optimal card you could complete the quest with no fighting, people only killed 10 mobs required to get reaper XP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragavon View Post
    The problem was that it had nothing to do with beeing good players.

    By fishing for the optimal card you could complete the quest with no fighting, people only killed 10 mobs required to get reaper XP.
    With all due respect, your response does not make sense to me. In the first part of your sentence, you say one can complete with no fighting, then you say you have to kill 10 mobs. Sounds like fighting to me. In any event, it takes a great toon to kill 10 mobs on R10. Why punish great players?


    With respect to fishing for optimal cards, if SSG does not want that to happen, then don't create a card system that permits that. Not that hard to foresee this would happen. Also, this change punishes players who have not yet had an opportunity to farm Amber for reaper xp, the way other players have been doing since RL was introduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaxpower View Post
    With all due respect, your response does not make sense to me. In the first part of your sentence, you say one can complete with no fighting, then you say you have to kill 10 mobs. Sounds like fighting to me. In any event, it takes a great toon to kill 10 mobs on R10. Why punish great players?


    With respect to fishing for optimal cards, if SSG does not want that to happen, then don't create a card system that permits that. Not that hard to foresee this would happen. Also, this change punishes players who have not yet had an opportunity to farm Amber for reaper xp, the way other players have been doing since RL was introduced.
    Killing mobs in R10 isn't all that hard. I am not a fan of the change, but the reason for a change was valid, but waiting over a year was questionable.

    The best solution I heard is more meaningful rxp ransack which would solve farming a single quest entirely instead of just this one quest.

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaxpower View Post
    With all due respect, your response does not make sense to me. In the first part of your sentence, you say one can complete with no fighting, then you say you have to kill 10 mobs. Sounds like fighting to me. In any event, it takes a great toon to kill 10 mobs on R10. Why punish great players?


    With respect to fishing for optimal cards, if SSG does not want that to happen, then don't create a card system that permits that. Not that hard to foresee this would happen. Also, this change punishes players who have not yet had an opportunity to farm Amber for reaper xp, the way other players have been doing since RL was introduced.
    Maybe this will help with the "does not make sense to me" part.

    The way it was people could pick which 10 mobs they needed to kill to meet the requirement. But didn't need to fight any specific fight to complete the quest.

    I actually disagree with your comment on fishing. Personally I think it is rather silly to "fish" for the layout "you know" and doing so is not a sign you are a "good" player, just one that looks for what you know.

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    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Maybe this will help with the "does not make sense to me" part.

    The way it was people could pick which 10 mobs they needed to kill to meet the requirement. But didn't need to fight any specific fight to complete the quest.

    I actually disagree with your comment on fishing. Personally I think it is rather silly to "fish" for the layout "you know" and doing so is not a sign you are a "good" player, just one that looks for what you know.
    And this is why, no one goes to Enoach, if they want to be efficient . . .
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    the reason was it took advantage of cheese tactics to extreme. it was kill mob that does not move at all they are turrents, (hags) you hide around blind corner, then you get card by mad dash in and out of the room and leave mob behind, then open door stand on ledge that spawn of skulls cant reach you as someone else kills never being targeted jump to ledge open door open secret door stand on perches and battle end fight never being touched. you are never in any danger if done right you never fight anything that ever puts you in danger. you are never touched by anything no matter what build you are. if you know the route, safe spots, and 2 cards to get the 3rd card you have to find a few enemies to kill before you get to final fight.

    if you are able to kill mobs in the first place this nerf does not hurt you and slows you down 5-10 minutes. its more annoying than anything.

    i no longer kill hags i finish quest now with 35 -60 kills now instead of just exactly 10 mobs.

    still doable on r10 if you had the build and skills to do r10 in the first place.
    Last edited by bls904c2; 04-11-2019 at 09:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaxpower View Post
    this change punishes players who have not yet had an opportunity to farm Amber for reaper xp, the way other players have been doing since RL was introduced.
    This is the issue. Reaper 10 difficulty is not for easy farming. If the most efficient farm is a single quest using a single methodology on Reaper 10, then yes, that quest needs to be modified.

    Players are not entitled to easy reaper farms. Sure some players found and took advantage of one. That's not the intent of the system, however, as stated by the devs. Hence the devs altered the quest to match the stated intent.

    I can see the issue with Elite difficulty having been modified as a side effect of the fix. I wish the changes could have been made only in reaper. Or, I wish the change had been one that kept the uniqueness and spirit of the quest vs. just dropping mobs everywhere. But the change to make it less of a defacto reaper farm for reaper xp was necessary.
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    Default The solution does not fit the problem

    Like so many nerf situations in DDO, they changed the wrong thing and then went too far. The people who "profited" from this are not the ones "hurt" by the fix.

    Those who played (Amber just became a "1 and done and hate it" for my little group) the quest the way it was intended were not the problem. The new aggro and spawns reeks of an angry response by balance team, not a thoughtful, calculated fix to what was a problem.

    If R10 was the problem, address THAT problem. If groups could bypass 90% of the quest with the correct card pull, fix those card pulls.

    Please implement changes and nerfs in a responsible manner.

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    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renvar View Post
    I can see the issue with Elite difficulty having been modified as a side effect of the fix. I wish the changes could have been made only in reaper. Or, I wish the change had been one that kept the uniqueness and spirit of the quest vs. just dropping mobs everywhere. But the change to make it less of a defacto reaper farm for reaper xp was necessary.
    The most likely reason that Elite was modified too is that Reaper is essentially scaled Elite difficulty, approx 10% per skull. They probably had to change the base (Elite) to affect Reaper.
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    Yeah I think that's the case. If it is, it's a really flawed system to have any non-reaper mode be the basis of Reaper. I'm not bothered by how this affects Reaper. I'm bothered by how it affects non-Reaper. People that are so far removed from the few people that took advantage of this quest are negatively affected. Most of all it ruins the unique atmosphere of the quest.

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    Honestly, I don't understand what all the complaining is about. After the changes, I have had ZERO issue completing the quest in under 10 minutes granted I only do R1 or lower *first time bonuses and such*. Reaper mode was designed to make people work as a team, not so solo players could get more power added to them.

    Those who work as a team, already have their reaper wings. Those who work as a team, can complete any quest as a team. Not just Amber Temple. I mean... Just go on youtube, and you will see tons of videos of TEAMS completing R10s. I am a solo player, I will gladly do R1-R3 as I can handle it, and get my wings eventually.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaxpower View Post
    With all due respect, your response does not make sense to me. In the first part of your sentence, you say one can complete with no fighting, then you say you have to kill 10 mobs. Sounds like fighting to me. In any event, it takes a great toon to kill 10 mobs on R10. Why punish great players?


    With respect to fishing for optimal cards, if SSG does not want that to happen, then don't create a card system that permits that. Not that hard to foresee this would happen. Also, this change punishes players who have not yet had an opportunity to farm Amber for reaper xp, the way other players have been doing since RL was introduced.
    Your first mistake is killing a mob, on r10, mobs get instakilled with a spell or furryshot, a mob rately gets a chance to blink.
    (Though to be fair, plenty of mobs in there don't have eyelids to begin with)

    Your seccond mistake is that, it took skill.
    It's a numbers game, your number need to be higher then there number.
    Press tab to sellect a mob, press 1-10 on your keyboard (or mouse if it has them) and the target vaporizes, rince and repeat.
    Besides being shown where the safe spots are, there is little skill involved.

    This is incedently why you see so many people using instakill casters and ranged toons with lots of burst damage (often reserved for bosses), there is relative other playstyles very little risk involved and barrely any time is spend in a quest.
    Wich is an effective way of spending their exp pots.
    This is why you also see a lot of these builds running aroud with reaper wings many months ago, they have their daily cycle of high reaper quets they can zerg rapidly.

    The devs reacted in their usual overreactive manner and their sollution bled over in the non reaper versions of the quest and now the non reaper people started to complain about the changes, making the quest no longer fun, 1 guildmember was already asking me if he could get his money back, i had to disapoint him. For people ho normally run heroic elite with little difficulty, they now have to deal with a large amount of champions, i can only imagine what this does for reaper mode, i bet there are reapers everywhere due to all the respawns.

    And the high reaper farmers? They will get their last 30 points eventually by zerging the remaining 7 or 9 risk free quests.
    Normally i wouldn't have minded to spill the beans but since it hurts people that don't run reaper i'll keep rhat info to myself

    It must have been by design, the devs went through the effort to effectively provide that one playstyle with all the power they need from reaper trees, gear, enh, etc while ignoring the rest.
    Just take a look at the sharn loot thread and see how ideas for melees ger shot down or ignored and caster ideas quickly accepter or reacted to.
    Another good example are the reaper trees, casters gain all they need from the reaper trees to negate the penalty they receive in reaper, melee dps clearly does not.
    Enh wise take a look at all the caster melee& caster trees and the workablable dps in there and compare it to actuall full bab classes, it's pitifull.
    A 1000 spellpower was breached some time ago, spell dc's are through the roof, how much melee power can straight melee builds get up to these days, and how effective is that in high reaper?

    Reaper mode was introduced as a challenge, it is currently zerged by bored players who barrely break a sweat and use reaper mode as an easy way to gain power, as a way to get people grouped, it failed spectacularly, most of these bored number crunching caster/ranged dps still only play with those they already knew, the criteria is numbers, your number needs to be this high to ride with us.
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    Community Member Grimtooth333's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    Honestly, I don't understand what all the complaining is about.
    The complaining by some of us here are because we who don't play reaper have to live with these horrible changes to elite, and the minor side-effects that bleed through to hard and normal.
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  15. #15

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    One of the ideas we had for nerfing Amber Temple was to remove Madam Eva on Elite+ difficulty.

    Instead we chose a kinder, gentler approach. You're welcome.

    But if we continue to see exploitative behaviors... well... the nerfs will continue until morale improves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    One of the ideas we had for nerfing Amber Temple was to remove Madam Eva on Elite+ difficulty.

    Instead we chose a kinder, gentler approach. You're welcome.

    But if we continue to see exploitative behaviors... well... the nerfs will continue until morale improves.
    The issue was how the quest was being farmed on R10 with little risk. The change dialed it up for elite players who may not have had intentions or the means to run reaper. If it was a reaper issue changes/fixes should not affect elite.

    If you removed Madam Eva vs. current setup I can still probably check all the the options one by one and odds are I will run into less spawns than I do in the current setup heading straight to goal with the card known. If you shuffle the spawn points again it's still just finding the spawn points again it's probably just one more day checking out the new layout anyway. Regardless the current change is discouraging exploration of this beautiful quest, not discouraging top end farming.

    EDIT: I think most people are aware why you thought it was necessary to fix/nerf Amber, and I personally agree as well, but of all the possible options to stem the RXP farm on this you guys probably chose the worst one.
    Last edited by askrj1; 04-11-2019 at 12:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    One of the ideas we had for nerfing Amber Temple was to remove Madam Eva on Elite+ difficulty.

    Instead we chose a kinder, gentler approach. You're welcome.

    But if we continue to see exploitative behaviors... well... the nerfs will continue until morale improves.
    What was the exploitative behavior? completing the objectives and finishing the quest? 0.o

    Still fairly easy to solo on assassin rogue and divines, haven't tried other classes yet. STEP IT UP

    Edit - I feel the pain of those that have trouble with this, really making the 4 vamp fight post strahd 1 hour dialogue a requirement for finishing rather than optional would have been a better balance for soloers carrying a whole group of players through on r10. But the new changes caused alot of drama so I am in favor of those to!
    Last edited by Vorachtin; 04-11-2019 at 12:45 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimtooth333 View Post
    The complaining by some of us here are because we who don't play reaper have to live with these horrible changes to elite, and the minor side-effects that bleed through to hard and normal.
    *shrugs* As long as a quest takes me less than 10 minutes to solo on R1, I don't see any reason to complain. Sure, there are people much... much... MUCH... Slower than me. But the game shouldn't be based off of these people... Or else we will get what WoW is currently going through. Which in that case... I would cease playing DDO.


    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    One of the ideas we had for nerfing Amber Temple was to remove Madam Eva on Elite+ difficulty.

    Instead we chose a kinder, gentler approach. You're welcome.

    But if we continue to see exploitative behaviors... well... the nerfs will continue until morale improves.
    Exploitative? Not really sure how this would have been considered an exploit...
    No Third party programs were being used.
    No under handed tactics were being used.
    No game breaking mechanics were being used.
    No Glitches were being used.

    The people doing this were getting the 10 kills needed, and then going to the main objective of the quest, just as it was designed. If an RNG card based system is introduced which allows for fast easy completions, you better believe that players will catch on and start doing the easiest approach. There isn't anything immoral about this. It is just human nature.
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  19. #19
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    One of the ideas we had for nerfing Amber Temple was to remove Madam Eva on Elite+ difficulty.

    Instead we chose a kinder, gentler approach. You're welcome.

    But if we continue to see exploitative behaviors... well... the nerfs will continue until morale improves.
    The kinder, gentler approach isn't really kinder or gentler for anyone involved.

    If the purpose of the change was so people wouldn't just skip the whole quest and zerg to the icon, then you've basically done the inverse- with the punishing amount of flameskulls, it makes me want to skip as much of the quest as possible to just get through the darn mess of a quest. Pulling yellow DA because of janky chain aggro doesn't help either (though it only happened once or twice and not mostly with flameskulls). Removing Madam Eva would actually have been a much better fix- flower sniffers can run through the whole quest, no problem, without having to deal with the constant chance of awful RNG skull spawns (running on elite means that you're gambling against champion selections) but people who want to exploit runs for experience have to guess where the icon is, killing the speedrun completion average time by a good bit. This is literally choosing the worst of the two options, because this penalizes players who complete the quest while encouraging the exact behavior that you're trying to prevent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMaxpower View Post
    Why did SSG change Amber Temple, again? Is there something wrong with really good players being able to complete the quest quickly on high-level reaper? The various explanations I am hearing from other players don't make sense to me.
    The idea of reaper mode is so that 'really good players' still had a challenge while playing DDO. Not so the 'really good players' can just sit there faming a quest that should be leagues beneath their abilities.

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