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Thread: Amber Temple

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    Am I trolling?

    That's my secret. I'm always trolling.

    Seriously, though, I am a little sad. I read through four pages of this thread. Personal attacks, anger, sure. We got that in spades. What I didn't see is a detached, reasonable analysis of why this latest change to Amber Temple was bad.

    That's because it isn't.

    Short term, yes, Amber Temple takes longer to run and you need to kill a few more things.

    The bigger picture though, this was a shortcut that was messing up the rest of the game. Amber Temple does not exist in a vacuum.

    If you choose to run AT over and over again, that's a detriment to other quests in the game, and to the game's community.

    As developers, we want to provide you a variety of fun experiences. However, they need to be comparable.

    Imagine a quest where you walk in, pull a lever and gain a level. Well, wasn't that fun. Let's do that again so I achieve all my goals and past lives and oh noes, the devs put a kobold guarding a door so now I have to kill it and open it and it's a waste of time and a slog and sadness all around, and all the elite exploiters are capped because of it and I missed the train and now I'm mad.

    We don't want to devalue our content into a bunch of skinner boxes. It has nothing to do with monetization.

    I've been on this project, on and off, for about a decade. What I can tell you after 10 years of my life dedicated to your enjoyment, is that our players are experts at ruining your own fun. If there were only two quests in the game, where quest A is full of fun and exploration and quest B takes ten times less time to run so you can get your reward, quest A would be 'one and done' and quest B would flood LFG. People would run quest B until their eyeballs bleed and their carpal tunnel is shaking the house at 7.0 on Richter scale.

    This puts designers in an adversarial position to the rest of the playerbase. We have to butcher our own babies and get you all mad at us, just so you can experience the rest of the game. Thankfully, we're not elected officials, and we have to make unpopular decisions (daddy has to, baby, daddy has to...) and yeah, nerfs will continue until morale improves.

    Cheers.
    If this was even half as big of an issue as you made it out to be (which honestly, I think you're right: it was a pretty serious issue) then it should have been fixed a year and a half ago. Because now we have another problem: tons of people running around with reaper wings because they farmed the hell out of this quest, and the other 75% of players who didn't so they're way behind. Oh, and now it's "fixed" so that nobody else can "exploit" it. Now we have a serious dichotomy between those who farmed the living daylights out of it and those who didn't.

    Farming AT isn't new. It honestly never should have been a thing, but it was, and for a year and a half nothing was done about it. Players knew about it. Why didn't the devs? And if they did, why wasn't it fixed before we had all these reaper-capped (or near enough) players running around?

    I'm glad it was fixed, but I'm irritated that it took this long - allowing so many to gain reaper points so quickly - and I totally don't agree with the means by which it was fixed. Throwing more mobs in a quest is a lazy way of doing things. Your other proposal was honestly a much more thoughtful approach.
    I'm not superstitious, but I am a little stitious.

  2. #142
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Question2005 View Post
    Only in end game high reaper and end game raids. And only certain melee builds, most of which seems to be full tempest, silvanus wolf, rogue assassin or handwraps monk.
    You named 4 melee classes out of 7-8(If we’re counting specialist classes too)You definently missed Barbarian. I would also argue that Fighter when built right is strong.

    So other than basically every melee class being viable, you totally nailed the point that melee is just restricted to a small set of classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Question2005 View Post
    There is a reason why people who are farming racial lives usually use warlock or sorc and avoid melee like the plague.
    We are currently talking about end game reaper however. Please go to a discussion better suited to your cares.

    One of my guildies is currently sitting on TR timer after blitzing through 1-20 in 2 days on a monk. And another who used a Druid. I suggest you expand your horizon and stop dying to crabs.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 04-12-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrannyNooblet View Post
    How does all of this affect those of us who like to just play on Normal and enjoy the content?
    Normal and Hard are completely unaffected.

  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegum View Post
    So I wasn't the only one under this impression.
    They act quickly when someone pont out but I'm still convinced none of the devs like melee classes or ever spend time playing one (maybe a monk once in a while).
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.

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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    You named 4 melee classes out of 7-8(If we’re counting specialist classes too)You definently missed Barbarian. I would also argue that Fighter when built right is strong.

    So other than basically every melee class being viable, you totally nailed the point that melee is just restricted to a small set of classes.



    We are currently talking about end game reaper however.
    Uh, we as a collective are currently talking about Amber, which includes lower difficulties which is proven by the last dev comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    Normal and Hard are completely unaffected.



    If you guys want to go off topic and talk builds, feel free to find the correct thread.
    Last edited by Aced; 04-12-2019 at 02:11 PM.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    Am I trolling?

    That's my secret. I'm always trolling.

    Seriously, though, I am a little sad. I read through four pages of this thread. Personal attacks, anger, sure. We got that in spades. What I didn't see is a detached, reasonable analysis of why this latest change to Amber Temple was bad.

    That's because it isn't.

    Short term, yes, Amber Temple takes longer to run and you need to kill a few more things.

    The bigger picture though, this was a shortcut that was messing up the rest of the game. Amber Temple does not exist in a vacuum.

    If you choose to run AT over and over again, that's a detriment to other quests in the game, and to the game's community.

    As developers, we want to provide you a variety of fun experiences. However, they need to be comparable.

    Imagine a quest where you walk in, pull a lever and gain a level. Well, wasn't that fun. Let's do that again so I achieve all my goals and past lives and oh noes, the devs put a kobold guarding a door so now I have to kill it and open it and it's a waste of time and a slog and sadness all around, and all the elite exploiters are capped because of it and I missed the train and now I'm mad.

    We don't want to devalue our content into a bunch of skinner boxes. It has nothing to do with monetization.

    I've been on this project, on and off, for about a decade. What I can tell you after 10 years of my life dedicated to your enjoyment, is that our players are experts at ruining your own fun. If there were only two quests in the game, where quest A is full of fun and exploration and quest B takes ten times less time to run so you can get your reward, quest A would be 'one and done' and quest B would flood LFG. People would run quest B until their eyeballs bleed and their carpal tunnel is shaking the house at 7.0 on Richter scale.

    This puts designers in an adversarial position to the rest of the playerbase. We have to butcher our own babies and get you all mad at us, just so you can experience the rest of the game. Thankfully, we're not elected officials, and we have to make unpopular decisions (daddy has to, baby, daddy has to...) and yeah, nerfs will continue until morale improves.

    Cheers.
    Flimsy, you picked easily the WORST way to solve your issues. I at first thought the changes couldnt be THAT bad, so I went in on LR1 to give it a shot, and oh boy was I wrong. At first it wasnt too bad, (please note I always full clear this quest because I enjoyed it) I dropped down and cleared the basement, a couple extra mobs, wasnt too bad (though flameskulls still op). I then went to clear the bottom right side, still not too bad a couple extra mobs but nothing to write home about, then I went to go clear the left bottom side...... ohhhh boy. I just walked across the atrium with the basement and right side already cleared, and instantly got in a fight with 14 ghouls, 7 or 8 flameskulls, 2 caster skellies, and SEVEN reapers. Dear god that was a nightmare of a fight, not even mentioning the numerous dot champions with extra damage. Really dot champs are still boarderline broken, at least they are not as bad as extra sp, extra elemental damage water ellies spamming ice bolt. I barely managed to clear that fight. There is no reason ever to throw that many mobs at the player for crossing the atrium.

    In any event, at the very least, you need to remove respawning mobs (how does this hurt the ubers? it doesnt, just hurts the people actually exploring the tomb) and make sure the packs are far enough so they dont chain pull like I obviously experienced.
    Last edited by J-mann; 04-12-2019 at 02:17 PM.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.

    #KensaiLyfe #YOLO
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    The bigger picture though, this was a shortcut that was messing up the rest of the game. Amber Temple does not exist in a vacuum.

    If you choose to run AT over and over again, that's a detriment to other quests in the game, and to the game's community.
    At best, it was a tiny percentage of the active playerbase running AT over and over as their sole means of gaining RXP, yet you chose to wreck the mission for the majority of players who were doing no such thing. I'd hazard a guess that the overall percentage of active players doing this was in the low single digits.

    It's a bit terrifying to consider what will happen when you realize that the same or better RXP/minute rate is possible by a group running a variety of end-game quests each night. Are you going to puke mobs everywhere in every other end game quest, too? That might be too much work, so maybe it's better to just close them all down ala LHoX?

    Try to defend it however you want, but even if AT did need some tuning, it needed minor tweaks at most. This puking mass quantities of random mobs in every corner of the quest was hamfisted and lazy and somewhat reeks of being a retalitory reaction. There were far more elegant and less heavy-handed solutions available for this problem but as usual, SSG ignored them and took the cop out.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    ...our players are experts at ruining your own fun.
    Elitist, paternalistic nonsense.

    "Stop it, you're having fun wrong!"
    Last edited by kpak01; 04-12-2019 at 02:29 PM.

  10. #150
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Personally, I only ever run this quest by exploring most of it, and enjoying my time while doing so. I ran it recently on R1 at cap with a melee and I thought the changes were fine. There were some more mobs to kill, but it wasn't like the quest was impossible, and it seemed to be a similar difficulty to other Ravenloft quests. So I thought the changes were fine. I'd also be okay with the card being changed to Mists on Reaper.
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  11. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    If this was even half as big of an issue as you made it out to be (which honestly, I think you're right: it was a pretty serious issue) then it should have been fixed a year and a half ago. Because now we have another problem: tons of people running around with reaper wings because they farmed the hell out of this quest, and the other 75% of players who didn't so they're way behind. Oh, and now it's "fixed" so that nobody else can "exploit" it. Now we have a serious dichotomy between those who farmed the living daylights out of it and those who didn't.

    Farming AT isn't new. It honestly never should have been a thing, but it was, and for a year and a half nothing was done about it. Players knew about it. Why didn't the devs? And if they did, why wasn't it fixed before we had all these reaper-capped (or near enough) players running around?

    I'm glad it was fixed, but I'm irritated that it took this long - allowing so many to gain reaper points so quickly - and I totally don't agree with the means by which it was fixed. Throwing more mobs in a quest is a lazy way of doing things. Your other proposal was honestly a much more thoughtful approach.


    This is spot on. Agreed on all points.

    My sense is a lot of the anger here, while poorly expressed, is about how a lot of people cheesed their way into reaper wings and then the door got closed so late in the process.

    I'll add a suggestion: ransack should go beyond -80%. A bunch of the exploit xp issues are when people find ways to get a lot of xp even at "full ransack" whether through bots or cheesing. Leaving some xp on the table at full ransack just opens up these possibilities while doing nothing for people who are running quests normally.

  13. #153
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    Since you pretend to have been living under a rock, reaper affects different playstyles differently, some playstyles regain more from their reaper trees then others (dc based vs dps based) also, incomming damage is much higher in reaper something ranged players and casters often skip over during their (fake) glow of glory

    Since you pretend to know my character. Let me enlighten you. You don't have to be ranged or DC based to benefit from reaper points, and you don't have to be DC based or ranged in order to do good in reaper content. But thanks for taking a blind stab at the darkness. Clearly you don't know how to reaper. Come back when you do.
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  14. #154
    Community Member Enerdhil's Avatar
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    To be honest last thing i care about is a chance to solo r10 amber in 5 min and i got nothing against changing it, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    Imagine a quest where you walk in, pull a lever and gain a level. Well, wasn't that fun. Let's do that again so I achieve all my goals and past lives and oh noes, the devs put a kobold guarding a door so now I have to kill it and open it and it's a waste of time and a slog and sadness all around, and all the elite exploiters are capped because of it and I missed the train and now I'm mad.

    Cheers.

    Seriously?

    I started the game when there were only heroic reincarnations. It was fun and something fresh - chance to keep improving your character by reincarnating, changing build, playstyle, gaining small benefit. Not game changing, but still an improvement, the gap between past lifes and no past lifes at all wasn't that big, some heroic past lifes are totally useless on specific builds. 1st life characters and old players could be almost equal in terms of end game performance.

    Now we've got 42 heroic reincarnations, 21 iconic reincarnations, 36 epic reincarnations, 36 racial reincarnations, 24 MILIONS RXP cap, 100k sentient xp jewel cap (which is 345 lvl 29 items, with 30% drop rate it's more than 1000 quest runs to cap it) and few other grind system like remnants tomes etc. It took me 8 years of playing to finish those reincarnations, maybe it wasn't main goal every day, but i belive i spend more time in game than average player.

    Now, with all this grind, years and years of farming for new character to be able to get might comparable to ubergamers does it really surprise devs that players are getting sick of it and would like to skip as much grind as possible, use easy buttons, shortcuts, exploits? I never duped or exploited anything, but for example - if i would know about any of those "events" 2-3 years ago - i'm pretty sure i would do it to skip some grind. I won't even mention that for everyone who do care about past lifes or rxp there's literally 0 (0!) reasons to play with alts. I was always against sharing pls or rxp, but i've changed my mind. I've got 7 alt characters and the difference between them and the main one is huge and i'm not going to do anything about it, cause it would take thousands of hours to change it.

    To summarise: keep adding grind systems, keep adding time eaters, keep adding effort needed to make really good end game character, add ridiculously high amounts of character based systems, make playing with alt character 100% pointless due to power achievable by main characters. It's your choice and you'll deal with consequences of it. But please, don't be surprised that players already got enough of grind and would like to skip as big part of it as possible.

  15. #155
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    If feedback causes him to stop reading, SSG is in trouble.
    Sure, but that's not what I said... The devs welcome feedback; the devs said insults stop them from reading.

    That's not my opinion. The devs have explicitly stated that. I want the good ideas in this thread read. You want the good ideas read too I assume.

    Taking the tone Flimsy did, their was no other reasonable expectation from the player base.
    This is incorrect, of course. You could say, "it's reasonable for us to take Flimsy's response as insulting". You'd have a case there.

    You cannot say, "There is NO OTHER reasonable response, except to feel insulted."
    Last edited by Thrudh; 04-12-2019 at 03:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  16. #156
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    A What I didn't see is a detached, reasonable analysis of why this latest change to Amber Temple was bad.
    With all respect to you, Flimsy, I disagree. I've provided a detached reasonable analysis of why the latest change was bad, and ways it could have been handled differently. However, I think you comment was more directed at people who were complaining that Amber was changed at all, because they wanted the easy farm for Rxp.

    Keep in mind that there are two issues people are concerned with in this thread: 1) Should AT be changed at all. 2) How should AT be changed.

    I agree with you that a change needed to be made. No doubt in my mind. Should have been done sooner, honestly.

    I disagree with the methodology of that change. Adding mobs was the quick and dirty fix that made the quest less fun, less interesting, and more like every other cookie cutter dungeon that players have been complaining about. (See Dragonborn prophecy for more examples).

    Better options:
    1) Remove Eva.
    2) Move Eva to a place that requires work to reach her.
    3) Make the Strahd party end fight mandatory instead of optional.
    4) Eliminate the one or two card options that were "too easy". (Or modify them such that they are no longer so easy. Make the icon location something else. Make it randomized for those options. etc)
    5) Modify the Lich encounter requiring you to fight him. (if not in all instances, then at least in the easy card instances).

    All of these keep the spirit and feel of the dungeon while reducing the efficiency of the solo R10 farm with 5 pikers situation.
    Asheras - Velania - Renvar - Ventarya - Officer in Loreseekers and Officer of Lava Divers - Khyber

  17. #157
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    In any event, at the very least, you need to remove respawning mobs (how does this hurt the ubers? it doesnt, just hurts the people actually exploring the tomb)
    If nothing else, please implement this change.

    Respawning mobs do not belong in a puzzle/exploration quest
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  18. #158
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Sure, but that's not what I or what the devs have said... The devs welcome feedback; the devs said insults stop them from reading.

    That's not my opinion. The devs have explicitly stated that. I want the good ideas in this thread read. Don't you want the good ideas read?

    Why are you arguing about this?



    This is false, of course. You could say, it's reasonable for us to take Flimsy's response as insulting. You'd have a case there.

    You cannot say, "There is NO OTHER reasonable response".
    devs say they welcome feedback, but at the moment of truth they never hear feedback. I think I've only seen this team once listening to it xD.

    And the truth is that flimsy has been more insulting than any of those who have answered him. If you see no reason for offense in his words, you should not see it in the rest.

    Saying that the change has been bad and lazy is not insulting. It is to leave our opinion clear.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  19. #159
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    I'll add a suggestion: ransack should go beyond -80%. A bunch of the exploit xp issues are when people find ways to get a lot of xp even at "full ransack" whether through bots or cheesing. Leaving some xp on the table at full ransack just opens up these possibilities while doing nothing for people who are running quests normally.
    I think this is a very good suggestion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aced View Post
    Uh, we as a collective are currently talking about Amber, which includes lower difficulties which is proven by the last dev comment.
    I’ve been directing my feedback at end game reaper because that’s what I play mostly. If Question2005 wants to discuss other difficulties, he should talk to the players who care about heroic Amber. In my experience I have no trouble stomping a few extra skulls and specters in heroics.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

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