Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 41
  1. #21
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    My place
    Posts
    975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    Swapping works for me in TWF. particularly in longer boss fights I usually start with trip pos LGS switch to dust and then switch to a DR breaker. It's a pain but isn't a huge issue personally. I'd definitely look to build a THF dust weapon if I ever went back to it.

    The issue of having to make that choice of having that lower level non sentient weapon as your main is a choice. The reason you have to make that choice is your use of THF. Another choice. Your proposal is to reduce and remove the consequences of those choices.

    Additionally the change is only going to matter for those making those specific choices. It does nothing for the comparative deficiencies of THF in other non-dust contexts. This proposal only addresses a small part of that spectrum. Also probably worth mentioning that in groups where a dust is used, the whole group benefits anyway, including THF toons.

    Finally, I accept you are not trying to reduce Shroud popularity here. Nevertheless that is a consequence of this proposal. To what extent is arguable, but whilst I'd fully agree is doesn't kill Shroud, the impact isn't zero either. It's another death by small cuts erosion like fetters was.

    For these reasons I'd prefer to see another solution. One that doesn't affect Shroud. One that does help THF in a more universal manner. One that adds to rather than reduces interesting choices.

    Tilomere has proposed changes to EDF to nerf the hp given to TWF. That to me ticks the boxes, though there are also other options I'd suggest looking at first such as no scale back of glancing blows in reaper or adding armor piercing to THF or improved crit profiling for THF from Knights Training.

    I don't think we are going to agree here mate. But it was good to exchange views on the subject. Cheers.
    The main reason we are disagreeing is you are not taking into account the difference of the "choice" a TWF and a THF is having to make.

    - TWF:
    -- The main hand is the majority of the DPS. It has 100% proc rate, full attribute value, and by far the highest doublestrike value. Tempest Rangers come the closest to a 50/50 value, though main hand still has the lead. This means that having a full raid-statted weapon in your main hand gives you the main part of your DPS.
    -- Sentient is a massive chunk of DPS and/or survival. It can mean a large chunk of Melee Power (or RP), attack and damage, it can mean 40 MRR cap, chunks of PRR and MRR, HP, heal amp. Sentient was a huge power leap, and to lose it is a BIG DEAL.

    The only sacrifice a TWF makes is a portion of their offhand DPS, which is only a portion of their overall DPS.

    On the other hand, THF is affecting 100% of their DPS along with losing Sentient, which is a massive downgrade. You can swap your offhand all day keeping your sentient and keeping the main part of your DPS - I do that on my TWF and casters. LGS is one of the main reasons I don't even consider two-handed casting sticks. The choice is not even in the same ballpark. So, yes, my goal is to reduce the impact of that "choice" to at least that of a TWF. Again, any balance changes to THF attack rates/glancing blow/or whatever would do nothing to change this choice. Changing this should not affect overall game balance or how they would adjust combat styles in the future. Like you said, in groups where Dust is used, the whole group is affected, so DPS should be balanced around having that at all, not by the ability to apply it. And I think that THF should have the ability to choose to apply it without a major sacrifice like TWF can.

    Balance concerns are solve by simply not having it on the BiS DPS option. TWF is a single digit % sacrifice, though matching it exactly is almost impossible with all the variables of class splits and gearing. But any sacrifice still puts it on similar ground. TH would have an even bigger concern of having to set up even more sentient to swap to BiS DPS, DR bypassing, and what not.

    The only concern left I see is shaving off one more reason to run LShroud. To be blunt, I think the problem is greater than the concern of a portion of the player base needing one less item from an older raid. LShroud still retains more reasons to run than many of the older raids (high thread counts, unique set bonuses, unique spell crit damage, full hamp on a single item, flexible weapon procs that you can put on any weapon including Affirmation which is still unique) with one of the smallest flag requirements. I think LShroud can afford the small loss to allow two-handed (and possibly throwers) to apply the debuff like others can.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  2. #22
    Systems Designer
    Lynnabel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    game/cdb/effect/effects-property-2.cdb
    Posts
    2,108

    Default

    To be clear, I have no intention of allowing more than one LGS-proc per singular weapon, don't worry.

    Furthermore, if putting Dust on literally anything makes that thing OP, it's because Dust is OP.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  3. #23
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    82

    Default

    I wouldn't say dust is OP, rather sources of PRR (or MRR) penalties are scarce. The higher the penalty we apply, the less return we get, so right now, Dust is pretty strong. That may change as time goes on, though it is probably better the not let us stack these penalties where possible.

    Having said that, a non stacking dust (7 PRR?) wouldn't be very good. The 5 stacks/35prr is a nice number imo

  4. #24
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    My place
    Posts
    975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by red_kain View Post
    I wouldn't say dust is OP, rather sources of PRR (or MRR) penalties are scarce. The higher the penalty we apply, the less return we get, so right now, Dust is pretty strong. That may change as time goes on, though it is probably better the not let us stack these penalties where possible.

    Having said that, a non stacking dust (7 PRR?) wouldn't be very good. The 5 stacks/35prr is a nice number imo
    Lynnabel is saying that there will never be a weapon that applies more than one LGS proc (such as no item will ever apply both Fetters *and* Dust), not that Dust would no longer stack.

    Technically there already exists a weapon that breaks this rule with Volley applying both Fetters (LGS Vacuum) and Identity Crisis (LGS Salt), though that can be considered an exception that existed before this logic. LGS procs are indeed very powerful, and a weapon having more than one crosses a line that doesn't need to be.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  5. #25
    Community Member apep1412's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    352

    Default

    There are a couple other exceptions in the new loot. Legendary Freezing Ice and Fetters of Unreality are on the dwarven axe. Constricting Nightmare and Fetters of Unreality are on the kukri. Constricting Nightmares is technically half a LGS effect.

  6. #26
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Kordamye
    Posts
    1,519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    To be clear, I have no intention of allowing more than one LGS-proc per singular weapon, don't worry.

    Furthermore, if putting Dust on literally anything makes that thing OP, it's because Dust is OP.
    LOL, why not water the weapons down that you put dust on by adding less desired effects such as vampirism and constitution damage?

    And Voila........ a weapon that isn't OP

    *Vampirism 4
    *Wounding 5
    *Legendary Dust
    *Legendary Cursespewing

  7. #27
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,416

    Default

    They could go back to the original idea of vulnerability, where it is a group effort to stack it, or it takes awhile to solo stack it. This would make vulnerability more meaningful on gear of multiple players, even though individually the enhancement is weaker. Then there wouldn't be as much desire for other procs.

    Vulnerability was supposed to be this powerful group effort, and when they allowed single players to stack it it was eliminated as a viable enhancement for multiple players to have on their weapons. Maybe they should replace fetters of unreality on all the new raid items with vulnerability from here on out.

    Plus legendary dust is thematic to Shroud and the vale of twilight earth and negative planar effects. You don't just throw it on a longsword from Sharn.

    ------------------------------------------

    Oh, and for the record, a lot of us told you not to allow negative PRR values.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-20-2019 at 12:26 AM.

  8. #28
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    435

    Unhappy I am worried though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    To be clear, I have no intention of allowing more than one LGS-proc per singular weapon, don't worry.

    Furthermore, if putting Dust on literally anything makes that thing OP, it's because Dust is OP.

    It doesn't make anything OP IMO. That's not the issue. I literally have 3 current options for offhand and am considering a 4th. If Dust were OP there would be no consideration to be had. Nerf it if you like. I'll simply drop it from being one of those options.

    I'll restate my concerns on this for you.

    1. Putting Dust on everything doesn't help THF in general. Only a small subset. This is acknowledged above.

    2. Dust is being posited here as a major issue for THF. But that's only from a narrow perspective. If it were that big an issue you would see Everyone running TWF dust. I don't? It's a more accessible choice with TWF. So are lots of things. That comes with the choice made. If not this th end there will always be another similar plea for item changes to address THF disadvantage - which as above it doesn't even do.

    3. Shroud items have always had powerful effects. You need to sacrifice stuff to use them. That principle has been eroded by a number of loot decisions. Give Dust an easy access option and folks will take that over Shroud. This happened with Vacuum. I think that Shroud should preserve it's uniqueness in terms of loot. Others are free to disagree, but let's not pretend these erosive steps don't impact that.

    And a 4th to consider. Running yesterday in group with a wollf in THF. In chat they are talking about how great the crit numbers are, and they were indeed impressive. Arguments have been made about game balance and THF not being up to scratch, yet it would seem to me that if Dust is so great, adding it to that build may well be deemed OP. I can see a scenario where Dust gets added. Is open to "exploit" by certain builds, then gets nerfed for everyone because of that combination. It's happened before. It was bad.

    In short. Lynn. If you believe Dust is truly OP now then nerf it of you must. But don't do that later because you make a bad decision to open it up to builds that can "exploit" it. If the issue is THF then fix that. And do that first anyway. You'll then be in a better position to judge this in context of more even choice between the fighting styles.

    Bottom line is TWF gives access to a number of options THF doesn't. This is just ONE symptom of that underlying fact. If not this, then the same argument can and will be applied to other items just as validly. Choose TWF and you get this option. Choose another style and you get a different option. The problem is that THF doesn't currently offer enough. Address that first. Or you'll likely be chasing your tail on this sort of stuff forever and a day. I think you need to step back and recognise that you can't fix this conundrum with items. If you try you may introduce unintended opportunities for imbalance. Then you're in nerf cycle again to hammer this particular wakamole without making a dent in the underlying problem that drove it to being any sort of issue in the first place. And everyone is t-d off with the nerf bat yet again. Please don't go down that road. It's a cul de sac!

  9. #29
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    435

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    The main reason we are disagreeing is you are not taking into account the difference of the "choice" a TWF and a THF is having to make.

    - TWF:
    -- The main hand is the majority of the DPS. It has 100% proc rate, full attribute value, and by far the highest doublestrike value. Tempest Rangers come the closest to a 50/50 value, though main hand still has the lead. This means that having a full raid-statted weapon in your main hand gives you the main part of your DPS.
    -- Sentient is a massive chunk of DPS and/or survival. It can mean a large chunk of Melee Power (or RP), attack and damage, it can mean 40 MRR cap, chunks of PRR and MRR, HP, heal amp. Sentient was a huge power leap, and to lose it is a BIG DEAL.

    The only sacrifice a TWF makes is a portion of their offhand DPS, which is only a portion of their overall DPS.

    On the other hand, THF is affecting 100% of their DPS along with losing Sentient, which is a massive downgrade. You can swap your offhand all day keeping your sentient and keeping the main part of your DPS - I do that on my TWF and casters. LGS is one of the main reasons I don't even consider two-handed casting sticks. The choice is not even in the same ballpark. So, yes, my goal is to reduce the impact of that "choice" to at least that of a TWF. Again, any balance changes to THF attack rates/glancing blow/or whatever would do nothing to change this choice. Changing this should not affect overall game balance or how they would adjust combat styles in the future. Like you said, in groups where Dust is used, the whole group is affected, so DPS should be balanced around having that at all, not by the ability to apply it. And I think that THF should have the ability to choose to apply it without a major sacrifice like TWF can.

    Balance concerns are solve by simply not having it on the BiS DPS option. TWF is a single digit % sacrifice, though matching it exactly is almost impossible with all the variables of class splits and gearing. But any sacrifice still puts it on similar ground. TH would have an even bigger concern of having to set up even more sentient to swap to BiS DPS, DR bypassing, and what not.

    The only concern left I see is shaving off one more reason to run LShroud. To be blunt, I think the problem is greater than the concern of a portion of the player base needing one less item from an older raid. LShroud still retains more reasons to run than many of the older raids (high thread counts, unique set bonuses, unique spell crit damage, full hamp on a single item, flexible weapon procs that you can put on any weapon including Affirmation which is still unique) with one of the smallest flag requirements. I think LShroud can afford the small loss to allow two-handed (and possibly throwers) to apply the debuff like others can.
    I'm on anyway so...

    Obviously TWF rotation of offhand is fast less of an impact than rotation of THF. It's not I didn't recognise it, it's that I didn't think it needed stating. I'd still make that choice though. Others may not. The point is, it's a choice. Even then the choice is contextual... Dust is a party-wide advantage too, so if in a group I'd not even need to rotate it at all maybe. I'd not go back to THF right now.

    The comparative advantage TWF from equipping offhand is a constant. It's not something compensated for by your proposal, except in a relatively narrow context where LGS is an option. If. THF needs compensated for that advantage. Fine. But this doesn't address that properly. If it doesn't then no change is needed. Either way this proposal doesn't make much sense.. Make the choice more interesting, rather than removing it by item tinkering. I'd not go back to THF right now because the issues that led me to go to TWF remain. Dust isn't one of them.

    THF has glancing blows. Increase their effectiveness. I think that is the better way to go. TWF and THF don't need matched exactly. I agree it's probably impossible to do that anyway, but the choices between them can certainly be made more interesting. TWF does have too much in its favour IMO. It's been that way for years. That's why I switched to it - waaay before dust was any sort of consideration incidentally.

    It's not BIS slot for damage as matters stand as LGS right now, so..? Seriously though balance concerns are not addressed in any case if you add this to already powerful THF builds like wolves. I should state for clarity I don't have any issues with wolves. But let's not pretend they need dust to be viable! )

    So I don't agree this comes down to "just" shroud impact at all. Nor do I accept that the impact on shroud should be minimalised. Yes it's one change. So will others be. So have others been. It is erosive devaluation. On e step at a time. Testament to that is all the vacuum weapons gathering dust in my bank. There is no way I'd spend any time running for those these days. This is another step down that road. It's not a shroud killer.outroight, but it does have negative impact. It's one more reason not to run it.

    This doesn't address THF-TWF imbalance. It makes choice less interesting. It erodes shroud. There are better options than that proposed.

  10. #30
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    My place
    Posts
    975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    1. Putting Dust on everything doesn't help THF in general. Only a small subset. This is acknowledged above.
    You go on this in your first and last points, so just read my last paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    2. Dust is being posited here as a major issue for THF. But that's only from a narrow perspective. If it were that big an issue you would see Everyone running TWF dust. I don't? It's a more accessible choice with TWF. So are lots of things. That comes with the choice made. If not this th end there will always be another similar plea for item changes to address THF disadvantage - which as above it doesn't even do.
    For one, you're conflating what I said. I'm not saying that this is some major game-stopping issue that is crippling THF or whatnot, but it is indeed a concern. The reason you don't see more TWF with Dust is more of an ignorance of how negative PRR/MRR works (this is a combination of older players not realizing this changed as PRR/MRR debuffs used to be generally worthless, and newer players), the sheer complexity of the Shroud crafting system puts off many players, and not all players have access to the pack. You have a TWF and run it yourself as you know it is worth it.

    This not a 'never ending' concern. It is simply the consideration of procs that are only available on non-sentient gear, which is finite set of items. Thunderforged has had multiple procs brought out, though it's truly special ones of Mortal Fear has been neutered to oblivion and Reinvigoration is so watered down no really worth the effort. TOEE has nothing unique. That really leaves LGS. Most are damage procs, so are not really unique against other damage procs in general. Con-Ops I feel always should be unique to GS/LGS, though there does exist HP and SP sapping gear as well as the Torc effect, so people heavily pursuing that can still anyways. Much of the options have either always overlapped (things like Smoke and Mineral), or are now in items (Ice, Vacuum, partially Ooze, Salt). The only two real exceptions is Dust and Affirmation. Affirmation lasts one minute with no reproc chance in that duration and has a relatively high chance of triggering - it is a very strong ability, but one that you swap to and immediately away from after the trigger. Bringing it out to a weapon would be a greater DPS loss than the swap cycle. That leaves Dust.

    If they do bring out new weapons that cannot be made sentient with completely unique abilities, then the concern would arise again. While I don't think they have any plans on doing that (especially with the full investment into the sentient system they have currently), I'd hope they'd take this into consideration then as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    3. Shroud items have always had powerful effects. You need to sacrifice stuff to use them. That principle has been eroded by a number of loot decisions. Give Dust an easy access option and folks will take that over Shroud. This happened with Vacuum. I think that Shroud should preserve it's uniqueness in terms of loot. Others are free to disagree, but let's not pretend these erosive steps don't impact that.
    It is indeed true that this would slightly lessen the need to run Shroud, especially if they take it to everything rather than just weapons that can't be run off-hand. There is still unique set bonuses that will likely always remain unique (as stated by Lynnabel too) due to their power, LGS clickies, the items are still 26 giving earlier access to procs to the TR treadmills they have in place, threads/xp/etc. What should remain "unique" can definitely be debated, and I think Dust is important enough and the imbalance of the sacrifice too great to leave it unique. And some historical Greensteel argument I don't agree with, as in that case, Legendary Dust should just be an improved disintegration proc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    And a 4th to consider. Running yesterday in group with a wollf in THF. In chat they are talking about how great the crit numbers are, and they were indeed impressive. Arguments have been made about game balance and THF not being up to scratch, yet it would seem to me that if Dust is so great, adding it to that build may well be deemed OP. I can see a scenario where Dust gets added. Is open to "exploit" by certain builds, then gets nerfed for everyone because of that combination. It's happened before. It was bad.

    In short. Lynn. If you believe Dust is truly OP now then nerf it of you must. But don't do that later because you make a bad decision to open it up to builds that can "exploit" it. If the issue is THF then fix that. And do that first anyway. You'll then be in a better position to judge this in context of more even choice between the fighting styles.

    Bottom line is TWF gives access to a number of options THF doesn't. This is just ONE symptom of that underlying fact. If not this, then the same argument can and will be applied to other items just as validly. Choose TWF and you get this option. Choose another style and you get a different option. The problem is that THF doesn't currently offer enough. Address that first. Or you'll likely be chasing your tail on this sort of stuff forever and a day. I think you need to step back and recognise that you can't fix this conundrum with items. If you try you may introduce unintended opportunities for imbalance. Then you're in nerf cycle again to hammer this particular wakamole without making a dent in the underlying problem that drove it to being any sort of issue in the first place. And everyone is t-d off with the nerf bat yet again. Please don't go down that road. It's a cul de sac!
    This really is just saying either Dust procs are too OP, or wolves are too OP. Remember that THF Wolf can get others to apply Dust for them just as well.

    It really goes back to what Lynnabel said, if allowing two-handed weapons to apply Dust without giving up their sentient and most of their weapon profile is OP, then the problem is Dust.

    What I don't get is why people keep going into how this would bork the balancing of THF. This is not about balancing THF as obviously this will not fix that. That is a completely and utterly different discussion. We are talking about a singular unique debuff that is currently locked behind a crafting system that cannot be made sentient and is not on end game weapons. Two-handed weapons (and throwers) cannot access it without a disproportionate sacrifice, and giving them access outside of that crafting system solves the singular concern of applying that singular unique debuff. Doing this will do nothing to how the combat style currently works, nor will it do anything to change future plans to adjusting of THF. They are separate concerns, and while this is indeed a very narrow concern, it is also addressed super easily.

    [EDIT] Your second post is just a reiteration of the last points, so the what was just said applies to that as well
    Last edited by DrawingGuy; 04-20-2019 at 04:59 AM.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  11. #31
    Community Member janave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,773

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by red_kain View Post
    I wouldn't say dust is OP, rather sources of PRR (or MRR) penalties are scarce. The higher the penalty we apply, the less return we get, so right now, Dust is pretty strong. That may change as time goes on, though it is probably better the not let us stack these penalties where possible.
    ++;

    Yay, for real thinking

  12. #32
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post

    Furthermore, if putting Dust on literally anything makes that thing OP, it's because Dust is OP.
    So after playing an inquisitor where there are no dust, ooze, melting, or vulnerable sentient weapons available and doing crappy damage without complex weapon swapping for debuffs, my conclusion isn't that Dust is OP, it is that Dust on weapons is unbalanced, because only certain styles of weapon use can easily stack these % damage modifiers.

    The only fix would be to take all % damage modifiers off of weapons. Putting them on weapon slots is GG to whoever doesn't have such a weapon for their build.

    It wasn't that big a deal when the only % damage was original vulnerability of 1% every 3 seconds, but the ramp in vulnerability stacks per second and prr debuffs into negative screwed up game balance to the point that you can't fix itemization. Steelstar could fix this by disabling negative PRR.

    Otherwise you are going to put it on a 2hander, because TWF has it, but then thrown and ranged will need it as well, and you won't fix balance problems. You will create them by not letting everyone have it. But if everyone has it, why does it exist in the first place?

    It would be better balanced if LGS Dust was on the bard set, and Vulnerability was on the melee, ranged, and caster dps sets, and LGS Dust was actually removed from LGS.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-27-2019 at 10:20 PM.

  13. #33
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    ... my conclusion isn't that Dust is OP ...
    It seems a tad stronger than stat drain effects, which is something that is also apparently suitable for top tier raid weapons.

    Maybe adding Constricting Nightmare for the Melted Armour effect would be a good compromise. A -10 debuff to PRR and MRR that stacks with vulnerability is still very good.

    Thanks.

  14. #34
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,416

    Default

    They should revert the change that allowed negative prr. Then it would be situationally useful against the limited amount of mobs and champions that have it, like cold iron bypass.

    Oh, and then put dust and melted on two handers as requested, to even it out for the stat damage and ranged power on prayer on the crossbows. Heh.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-28-2019 at 12:07 AM.

  15. #35
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,549

    Default

    So since dust was apparently deemed too powerful to put on two handed endgame raid weapons it’s obviously straight up OP. Please nerf dust into the ground.

  16. #36
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    So debuffing is an important thing to do in parties, and I like the mechanic. Vulnerable, Constricting/Ooze, various class debuffs, with Dust being one of the most important. However it is currently only available in the Greensteel system, which means to stack it, the individual is not only losing out on DPS, but also losing out on the Sentient system. TWFs can get away with this a bit better by equipping to their offhand, but I'd like this vital debuff available on named items so that more builds can bring this type of support to the party without potentially kicking their survival and DPS in the teeth.

    The ability to flexibly add it with the "Nearly Finished" system would be perfect. The ability to add Fetters *OR* Dust would allow for party coordination and possibly doubling the loot goal with people wanting both. Hoping it is not too late to consider this!

    No for me
    I hope Lgs debuff to stay only in lgs weapon

    And play what u prefer
    U can add a ranger or rogue in your party...
    In game in Cannith as
    Aborim Master (main toon) --- Nickallin (my tank)--- Jjnick (warlock 30) --- Nickpunick ()--- Nickruvido (my healer)--- Nickallinone (shuri build)
    GODS

  17. #37
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    My place
    Posts
    975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    They should revert the change that allowed negative prr. Then it would be situationally useful against the limited amount of mobs and champions that have it, like cold iron bypass.

    Oh, and then put dust and melted on two handers as requested, to even it out for the stat damage and ranged power on prayer on the crossbows. Heh.
    I personally liked the fact they allowed it. Debuffing adds another layer to game play, and I personally think having more things to do in combat makes it more fun. Having debuff roles of Ooze/Constricting, Fetters, and Dust can involve any class (well, trying to get Dust to that level as you can really only give Dust debuffing to TWF and casters at this time) along with class debuffs. With better access to debuffs, this does bring the argument of rather than buffing HP Devs should lean heavier on PRR/MRR for mobs, but still would rather they kept the negative value to keep the debuff layer valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    So since dust was apparently deemed too powerful to put on two handed endgame raid weapons it’s obviously straight up OP. Please nerf dust into the ground.
    Yeah, the fact that Lynnabel rolled back on the statement of putting Dust on some of the new two-handed (and I do consider ranged weapons, casting staves, and hand wraps as "two handed" as they all take both hands) and throwing gear is frustrating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    No for me
    I hope Lgs debuff to stay only in lgs weapon

    And play what u prefer
    U can add a ranger or rogue in your party...
    I see no reason that TWF should keep the advantage in Dust application. It doesn't need the help, and should not be locked/preferred to those classes and TWF casters. And I would not call "add a ranger or rogue in your party" as playing what you prefer.

    Giving this debuff to combat styles that cannot fairly access it far outweighs the minor dilution of Shroud - especially considering most of the builds wouldn't farm it anyways as the sacrifice is too great for them. They can give it a different name like they did for Vacuum/Ooze to keep a level of uniqueness beyond the lower level access and flexibility, but in any case, it is important enough for them to break out.
    Last edited by DrawingGuy; 05-13-2019 at 04:50 AM.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  18. #38
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    Debuffing adds another layer to game play.
    Yea in general, but let's look at the actual gameplay of stacking Dust:

    First 12 seconds:

    So lets say your character attacks 5x/second with a dust weapon. At 50% application and 2 stacks, it takes on average 2 seconds to build up dust stacks, plus another second per 12 seconds to refresh dust stacks, since the whole stack drops at the end of 12 seconds.

    Now lets say you are fighting a standard group of 8 mobs. First you debuff 4 mobs with 4 tab targets, then refresh stacks on those 4 mobs by tabbing through rest of group 5 more times to get to original target, and then 3 more tab targets while you refresh ooze. 12 tab targets in first 12 seconds.

    Lets say during this first 12 seconds your group kills 3 debuffed mobs, leaving 1 debuffed, and 4 non-debuffed mobs.

    Second 12 seconds:

    Then debuff 3 more mobs with 3 3 more tab targets and refresh dust on 4 targets with 5 more tab targets through the group. 8 more tab targets in next 12 seconds.

    Then your group kills 3 more debuffed targets, leaving 2 targets.

    Last 12 seconds

    During last 12 seconds of combat you actually have time to maybe get a kill, only tab targetting say 2 times to stack or refresh dust.

    Total tab targeting to stack dust: 22 times in a 30 second fight.


    I did this in an R10. The game play was terrible. You are more preoccupied with juggling 12 second Dust debuff timers and what mob should be next for debuffing than actual positioning or playing, and if you do it well and swap off of mobs that are going to die, it looks like you pike on the kill meter. Plus you don't use the sentient weapon you fed a thousand items to build up unless you are twf. Sure the group gets a fast time and more RXp/min, but wow that was terrible.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 05-13-2019 at 12:40 PM.

  19. #39
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    My place
    Posts
    975

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I did this in an R10. The gameplay is terrible. You are more preoccupied with juggling 12 second Dust debuff timers and what mob should be next for debuffing than actual positioning or playing, and if you do it well and swap off of mobs that are going to die, it looks like you pike on the kill meter. Plus you don't use the sentient weapon you fed a thousand items to build up unless you are twf. Sure the group gets a fast time and more RXp/min, but wow that was terrible.
    I do consider the fact that you can't effectively debuff like that unless you are a TWF a problem. Though the fact that debuff gameplay helps the party as a whole is a good thing. However when it comes to trash debuffing, those that can apply it in an AOE like Rangers and casters would be much better at that. One of the reasons to play THF is the AOE and cleaving power, so if they could apply it as well without kicking themselves in the face, they would be one of the better people to trash fight debuff (though I still think they'd need balance changes like making cleaves double strike and what not). Taking the role of all of the debuffs single handedly in trash fights is indeed a tall order - especially if you are a build that can only apply it to a single target. A party should look to spread that out, though on a boss a single TWF can do that easily. They'd still hold the advantage over two-handed users as they can rotate debuffs while keeping a single sentient fed BIS weapon, where two handed weapon users would need to feed multiple to properly cycle. Though that is something I can live with if I can participate in debuff gameplay without having the only option being stuck with a non-sentient lower level weapon as my singular access.
    Pinc Punch - Unarmed Monk (Uber Completionist) // Porc the Orc - Paladin // Thunderborn - Warlock // Imustbe Emo - PewPew Rogue // Aquamine Artifact - Crafting Artificer (shelved)

  20. #40
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    Though the fact that debuff gameplay helps the party as a whole is a good thing.
    Yes, but not in the way that you think. You think the obvious that a group with a Dust Debuffer will get high RXp/min in a dungeon and clear fast. Yes that is true, but after you have millions of RXP that isn't very meaningful.

    The real benefit is the shock to a players system when they see a dps character Dust debuff instead of kill meter stack. It reveals the character underneath to see how they react when they don't grasp invisible power.

    Now remember, these are people I have played with for 10 years, off and on, and who I did the rest of the chain with on high reaper such as here, so they know my character can kill things albeit not as well due to lacking gear as they can at cap. But when they see my character Dust debuff and intentionally not kill things so the THF can kill things faster for RXP/min, their real personality I had no idea about comes out.

    So Dust debuffing does improve partying, but not by meaningful RXp/min, since anyone already in higher reaper doesn't need RXp, but by revealing the type of person underneath so you can better choose who to group or not group with.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 05-13-2019 at 01:34 PM.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload