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  1. #1
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Default General Labeled Bags -- A monetization argument for more inventory

    I'm running out of inventory. It's maxed and I'm pretty new (couple months). I have no idea at all how players with years in game manage things. The problem is that it's putting a cap on my play. No inventory means no more space for alts. No alts means I've got no need to spend more in the shop. No more need to waste crystals on boxes getting gear for those alts. I can't even spend more on glamour if I wanted to. No way to store things.

    The strategy of charging for a too-small shared bank is thus backfiring on your cash shop. Ask any first year business student about the advantages of a larger market versus charging more for a smaller market. Alts = market = money. Here's a way to get both without much extra coding.

    Add general purpose bags that can be labeled. Make sure the bags can hold a full set of gear, including some swaps. The game already supports banking full bags. Voila. You've expanded inventory and improved storage management all at once. Much more alt-friendly when you can bag sets of special purpose gear, such as "Melee TR pre 10", "Range TR 10-20", etc.. People can make more alts and thus spend more on the cash shop for those alts (think tomes).

  2. #2
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    Hi welcome.


    Inventory is a MAJOR long-standing issue that gets complained about CONSTANTLY. Barely a week goes by on this sub forum when someone doesn't make a post exactly like this, suggesting/requesting some new system/improvement.

    Here's the long and short of it:

    *Items, like equipment, can't go into bags like ingredients. No one knows exactly why, but there's some technical reason for it.

    *Adding more storage, period, is difficult. Too much storage is bound-to-character already, and it causes considerable lag when trying to sue the banking system. Adding more would cause too much server overhead.

    *The devs have stated many times that they would like to improve the inventory system, but it's going to require a complete overhaul. Doing so will be messy, difficult, and extremely challenging especially in order to prevent any loss of items(which if you knew how rare certain items are, you'd understand how important that is). Unfortunately, the devs have not commented on why they don't implement a number of short-term fixes, but it is what it is.

    At the end of the day, adding more space isn't a question of SSG hating money(they feel quite the opposite in fact), it's a matter of the technology. DDO wasn't built with scalability in mind, and now it's biting them in the butt. Hopefully if enough of us complain, maybe we will see some kind of useful short-term fix.

  3. #3
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    The struggle is real....

    In fact some people have gone to great and unfortunate lengths to overcome the issue
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...n-and-Storage)

    And so far the only meaningful solution that SSG has offered to remedy the issue has been to store less https://ddowiki.com/page/Sentient_Weapon
    And with Sharn: Minor artifacts

    I think that the Devs will eventually overhaul the system and come up with something workable to replace the system - and we dont know if it will be good or bad - all we know for certain is there will be pain.

    So pain now - or pain latter? Unfortunately - I think we will get both.

  4. #4
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    I have 22 Mules




    2 Characters that I actually play
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    Ah, but have you added entire mule ACCOUNTS? That's where it becomes really scary :P


    For me at least unbound storage isn't an issue. I like items, and any item worth a damn is BtA or BtC. BtC storage on my main is the biggest problem, as I have a giant TR cache full of either treasured relics or useful TR stuff.

  6. #6
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemshaker1941 View Post
    Ah, but have you added entire mule ACCOUNTS? That's where it becomes really scary :P


    For me at least unbound storage isn't an issue. I like items, and any item worth a damn is BtA or BtC. BtC storage on my main is the biggest problem, as I have a giant TR cache full of either treasured relics or useful TR stuff.
    Im sure there are plenty of items that you don't need, I know I have plenty of items that I don't need :P
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRighteous View Post
    In fact some people have gone to great and unfortunate lengths to overcome the issue
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...n-and-Storage)
    I just read a few pages of that thread... its HORRIFYING. The guy is literally the digital equivalent of a level 5 hoarder. He's spending dozens of hours grinding out alt guilds so he can store garbage most of us wouldn't even loot from the chest to sell as vendor trash. He stores potions you can buy from vendors.

    I don't know how someone can possibly play that much and still have time to actually play the game, seems like all his time is consumed expanding his hoarding.

  8. #8
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemshaker1941 View Post
    I just read a few pages of that thread... its HORRIFYING. The guy is literally the digital equivalent of a level 5 hoarder. He's spending dozens of hours grinding out alt guilds so he can store garbage most of us wouldn't even loot from the chest to sell as vendor trash. He stores potions you can buy from vendors.

    I don't know how someone can possibly play that much and still have time to actually play the game, seems like all his time is consumed expanding his hoarding.
    Everyone plays the way they enjoy. One thing is for certain. He always has what he needs.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    I have 22 Mules
    That's fascinating only in the way something absurdly revolting can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by systemshaker1941 View Post
    *Items, like equipment, can't go into bags like ingredients. No one knows exactly why, but there's some technical reason for it.
    If I were to guess, the current code stores bag contents as ID+Count. Non-stacking items require a more than a simple ID. It would need new bag code for non-stacking items. So what? It's still trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by systemshaker1941 View Post
    *Adding more storage, period, is difficult. Too much storage is bound-to-character already, and it causes considerable lag when trying to sue the banking system. Adding more would cause too much server overhead.
    The term "technically difficult" when applied to storage greatly offends my engineering sensibilities. Worst case, you reformat the database. It's a trivial operation for a data set as miniscule as MMO character data. That bank lag we all see shouldn't be there either. It hints at gross design flaws.

    However, I believe you when you say they don't want to touch that code. While there is no engineering reason, there might be a plethora of human ones. For us as players, there's effectively no difference between a problem that is hard to solve and one that people are afraid to solve. It just offends my engineering sensibilities when someone claims "technical reasons" for something that has none.

    So. Mules, eh?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    If I were to guess, the current code stores bag contents as ID+Count. Non-stacking items require a more than a simple ID. It would need new bag code for non-stacking items. So what? It's still trivial.
    Per the Standing Stone Games Development team: "No, it's not trivial." They have stated this several times.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    The term "technically difficult" when applied to storage greatly offends my engineering sensibilities. Worst case, you reformat the database. It's a trivial operation for a data set as miniscule as MMO character data. That bank lag we all see shouldn't be there either. It hints at gross design flaws.
    (Emphasis added). Yes. I agree with you on the underlined part. Like I said, this game was not designed to scale - when they built DDO all those many years ago, they did not account for the game eventually going to lvl 30, TRs, shared bank, or dozens of disparit crafting systems that only benefit from hording ingredients. i game like WoW can get away with it because once an item becomes invalidated by content, there is literally no point in keeping it - that was the design philosophy DDO was built on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    However, I believe you when you say they don't want to touch that code. While there is no engineering reason, there might be a plethora of human ones. For us as players, there's effectively no difference between a problem that is hard to solve and one that people are afraid to solve. It just offends my engineering sensibilities when someone claims "technical reasons" for something that has none.
    Time to trot out my favorite comic again:



    Keep in mind, this is not my opinion, but something that has been directly and blatantly stated multiple times:

    "The only solution is a ground-up rewrite of the entire inventory system."


    Short version: yes, there is absolutely an engineering reason. DDO's inventory system is a barely-functional kludge of poorly-documented spaghetti code. It's like a several foot high jenga tower - except where pulling the wrong brick means people loose items they spent a literal decade farming. Some of us have items that are so absurdly rare that they flat out DO. NOT. DROP. in the current game; and are still the best item in-slot. Again, the devs have stated several times that migrating the old inventory to a new system without loosing anything would be a monumental challenge on the level of creating an expansion pack. This is not "a problem people are afraid to solve" - its a problem they don't have the resources to solve.

    At least not quickly.

    We know it's on the radar, but there's no telling when. Soon(TM) is the best answer we can get.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    So. Mules, eh?
    I call mine "Tijuana".

  11. #11
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjo174 View Post
    I have 22 Mules

    2 Characters that I actually play
    Rookie.

    I am up to 47 toons on my main account (3 playable toons.. down from 14 playable ones.. rest are pure mules)
    10 of these Mules have TR's for TR cache storage.
    230 share bank space slots
    2045 shared crafting storage slots
    a variety pack of Colossal, Gargantuan, Huge, Large bags across all toons.
    Most have unlocked favor and purchased bank/inventory slots
    3 alt Mule accounts- 3toons/account (premium accounts)
    3 alt Mule guild ships
    ...without getting into alt servers... I have assorted parked essentially mule toons on every server as well..


    and its all a [expletive] organizational mess.
    I wouldn't use 50 mules and assorted storage mediums if I could consolidate all my items across the account into a single centralized manageable storage location.

    What we desire is an account based storage with an improved version of the Auction house storage interface so we can have some useful management and filtering tools on a large capacity storage vault capable of holding 1,000+ items in a centralized storage medium.. not 20 different insufficient storage systems with different inferior interfaces...
    We wan the one stop shop interface... which the AH and its interface does a pretty good job of...

    It doesn't need to be tied to the existing banking system..
    a separate instance storage vault.. or Player housing storage type system that allows me to access all my stuff across my account and is capable of colossal capacity...
    A place to centralize all my stuff from all my toons, not a tiny capacity that forces me to spread out all my stuff across multiple toons, bags, caches, storage chests, guild chests, etc....
    Last edited by JOTMON; 04-08-2019 at 05:02 PM.
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    What we desire is an account based storage with an improved version of the Auction house storage interface
    The auction house is not a storage system. Its an auction house.

    It would be more accurate to say that YOU desire a storage system similar to the auction house. The collective "WE" desire "A better storage system" and are leaving it up to the devs to design one. Personally, I'd much prefer something like the existing bank with with many more tabs/spaces per tab. That'd be much more useful to me than this AH-based ****.

    Hence why I object to the usage of "we" in this context.

  13. #13
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by systemshaker1941 View Post
    The auction house is not a storage system. Its an auction house.

    It would be more accurate to say that YOU desire a storage system similar to the auction house. The collective "WE" desire "A better storage system" and are leaving it up to the devs to design one. Personally, I'd much prefer something like the existing bank with with many more tabs/spaces per tab. That'd be much more useful to me than this AH-based ****.

    Hence why I object to the usage of "we" in this context.
    You obviously have no clue..
    The AH interface has the search bar, sort functionality, filters based on level, subsections for various categories...
    It also a separate accessible storage medium and the capacity to hold thousands of items..


    The existing bank is garbage.
    I already have the maximum 230 shared spaces and have to page through 11 tabs to get to the end to pickup the items I just put in there to move to another toon..
    its moronic.. the oldest stuff we dont access pops up on the first page.

    The crafting storage box is even worse.. I am up to 82 tabs..
    have to manually tab 81 times to get to the end unless I happen to know how to filter it on whatever I am looking for... slavers stuff is not conveniently searchable..
    so sub categories, and items don't stack like they do in bags.

    and its not just me.. the requests for better storage with management tools has been asked for... for years.. I've only been asking since 2008..
    Jotmon -
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200
    Argo-Jotmon(HC 28/42,EC 26/36,IC 17/15,RC 14/30), Jotlock(HC 38/42,EC 36/36,IC 15/15, RC 0/30)..
    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  14. #14
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    I've used the term "stable" for multiple alts/mules, but with some of the counts above, it doesn't properly convey the scale. "Herd" or "swarm" might be more apropos.

    The funny thing is until you play a little, you aren't scared off at all by stories about 25~50 mules for storage because you simply don't believe it. It can't really be that bad, right? Or, those are just horders.

    I've got 3 chars with only one that's TR'd once and I'm worried I'll need to invest in a barn, soon. And hay.

  15. #15
    Community Member banjo174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    I've used the term "stable" for multiple alts/mules, but with some of the counts above, it doesn't properly convey the scale. "Herd" or "swarm" might be more apropos.

    The funny thing is until you play a little, you aren't scared off at all by stories about 25~50 mules for storage because you simply don't believe it. It can't really be that bad, right? Or, those are just horders.

    I've got 3 chars with only one that's TR'd once and I'm worried I'll need to invest in a barn, soon. And hay.
    Then you have a problem lol. I didn't start creating mules, until I was a completionist. The only reason I have mules, is because the TR cache isn't enough to hold the gear needed for every play style...
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    You obviously have no clue..
    I obviously have no clue what I, personally, want in an improved inventory system? Really?

    Look, just because I don't support your stupid AH-derived concept doesn't mean I don't know what I want, buddy.

    For me, personally, being able to sort gear visually by playstyle or whatever other format suits my needs would be far and away, miles and leagues, more valuable than a crappy personal aucionhouse. For example, I currently have an entire bank tab full of heroic greensteel. I've never gone to the hastle of sorting my mules, but others with multiple mules have been known to do one for caster gear, one for weapons, one for melee, etc, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    The AH interface has the search bar,
    So does shared bank. So could the TR cache, personal inventory, bank, etc. Really, so could any new system

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    sort functionality, filters based on level, subsections for various categories...
    All functionality only you and a few other people believe are vitally necessary. I'm not suggesting you are wrong, merely that you don't get to speak for everyone or dictate how others feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    It also a separate accessible storage medium and the capacity to hold thousands of items..
    This is the sort of statement that illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the problems facing DDO's inventory system. Since you clearly weren't paying attention the last 20 times I or others explained it, I'm not going to try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    The existing bank is garbage.
    We all agree with this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    I already have the maximum 230 shared spaces and have to page through 11 tabs to get to the end to pickup the items I just put in there to move to another toon..
    its moronic.. the oldest stuff we dont access pops up on the first page.
    Also true. This is something the devs could very easily fix, it's a wonder why they ever made it the way it is to begin with. Last in first first out would make SOO MUCH MORE SENSE.


    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    The crafting storage box is even worse.. I am up to 82 tabs..
    have to manually tab 81 times to get to the end unless I happen to know how to filter it on whatever I am looking for... slavers stuff is not conveniently searchable..
    so sub categories, and items don't stack like they do in bags.
    I've personally not bothered to use the crafting storage for these exact reasons. I also find it insanely over-priced for the small utility it adds.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    and its not just me..
    You are absolutely correct. It's not just you. However, it IS just you that is insisting on putting words in everyone's mouth by saying "We all want" some highly specific and very bad suggestion from a few weeks ago as the solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    the requests for better storage with management tools has been asked for... for years.. I've only been asking since 2008..
    That's why I'm on here all the time participating in these threads and following up on the dev tracker every time one of the devs posts on it. Yes. Everyone wants a better storage system. No, not everyone wants the exact system some guy suggested a few weeks ago. We all have different ideas about what we do want, and how the devs impliment it is ultimately going to be up to them. We would make a lot more progress if, instead of suggesting intricate, fleshed out systems designed with no concept of DDO's internal operating mechanics, we simply kept pushing for "something, anything" and let the people who actually design the game be the ones to design the solution.

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