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  1. #1
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Default SORCERER DPS IN ENDGAME REAPER – from god to trash

    Hi guys,
    I did my first tiefling life as sorcerer. I tried out sorcerer dps for fun and I want to share my experience.

    Last time I played sorc was before update 41 and dps was really disappointing, at least in an endgame perspective.
    I’m not interested in leveling, but sorc is an absolute blast for leveling in heroic (low-medium skulls) and epic (r1). Get sprint boost from falcon and you are good to go.
    Just two words about my build: I went fire+electricity equipped for max dps (beacon set, insightful combustion etc, spiral with eye + otto and a second identical spiral with eye + otto as swap, LGS in offhand – ooze and ash mostly). In reaper I was sitting at 1250 fire spellpower (no meta, no boosts), 101% fire crit chance, 60 fire crit multiplier, CL 40 for fire spells (meteor swarm was 32, is it bugged?). Cha 100, 2000hp, 7500sp, all PLs but Tiefling, Grim and Thaumaturge trees filled, rest in Dread.
    Disclaimer: LGS ooze is for PRR/MRR debuff, oozes imho are cute but useless…

    Ayway, here’s my findings for reaper endgame as dps sorcerer.

    LOW SKULLS (R1-R3)
    Armageddon mode on. 2-3 mouse clicks and you clean a room full of mobs. Bosses go down really fast. You can skip shrines. There's not much to tell. Perfect build for farming. Perhaps exceedingly good…

    DBF damage in slavers R1 (just 2 spells casted: mass hold+dbf, spiral + LGS ooze in offhand)



    MEDIUM SKULLS (R4-R6)
    Fun and viable, but not tier 1. Easy to play with, dps sorc can be a solid all-around perfomer combining CC and a decent/good dps. You can fill the screen with fire explosions and smoke. Mobs will die, but - if you group with decent players - dc casters will outkill you and proper dps builds will be more effective vs red named. 7500 spell points are more than enough.

    DBF damage in slavers R5 (just 2 spells casted: mass hold+dbf, spiral + LGS ooze in offhand)




    HIGH SKULL (R7+)
    Not good enough (R7) – not good at all (R10). Sorc dps effectiveness scales really badly in high skulls. Failing with your CC will result in tragedy without a backup, and spell damage become too low to be sustained. Sure, you can still bring a decent dps, you can still hold and kill reapers in a blink… but you know, reapers are weak. Handling nasty champs is a whole different level. So, if you know your limits you can contribute something… but you are playing a suboptimal/average/poor build. Sorc dps doesn't fit in a R10 zerg party. My guild leader would kick me if I stay in a similar build XD

    DBF damage in slavers R10 (just 2 spells casted: mass hold+dbf, spiral + LGS ooze in offhand)




    In conclusion, playing experience was fun but I would not recommend this route to an endgmer. Not at all.

    Can be caster dps fixed? I think no, DCs + dps will make casters too strong.
    Sadly, we currently have a lot of DC caster options with zero dps, but zero dps caster options for high skulls content.

    Anyway, maybe an option could be a stance that removes some schools (evo only casting?) and enhances dps, critical damage mostly (wellspring of power always up?). My 2 cents.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  2. #2
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    meteor swarm was 32, is it bugged?
    the caster level of meteor swarm is effected by fire and earth savant cores, so by going elec speced you are lowering caster level since that lowers earth spells

  3. #3
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    the caster level of meteor swarm is effected by fire and earth savant cores, so by going elec speced you are lowering caster level since that lowers earth spells
    Oh yeah, right. It's fire + earth
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  4. #4
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Considering you are lucky to get roughly around ~60% (plus-minus) of your stats on a fresh new Sorc, yikes. And definitely less if not Tiefling.

    Unfortunately the layout of this post will likely result in demands for nerfs even for R5s
    Last edited by janave; 04-03-2019 at 03:18 AM.
    There is no shame in pain.

  5. #5
    Community Member Innokentiy's Avatar
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    Hi, Gilga1,
    could you write a breakdown of your 101 fire lore? I was thinking for a long time but probably Im dumb.
    //Innokentiy//, //Efrosimya Polikarpovna//, //Prokofiy Potapovich//, //Lukerya Mstislavovna// of Argonnessen
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  6. #6
    Community Member awar1234's Avatar
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    Default Yes nerf this immediately!!!

    PAre you kidding us???
    Hitting for 2000++ on R7-10?!?!? Way OP!

    NERF NERF MERF MERF!!!!


    Oh by the way, good job on awesome build..... can you post your build for the rest of us so we can use it and roll stomp R10? Thanks


    Ps. This shows just how powerful past lives and full reaper trees are.. so all you peeps out there that say past lives are minimal.... EAT DIRT SUCKERS!
    Last edited by awar1234; 04-05-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    R10 zerg party
    Impressive numbers, but I think this is where the problem lies - that so shortly after reaper was introduced the speed of power "creep" made this a phrase that can be used.

    A smarter approach to improving spell DPS in reaper (not that we balance the game around reaper) would have been to not do a pass on their damage to amp it up hugely so that you can do R10s under that punitive scaling (if less zergily than other classes), but to just do a bit less scaling on spell DPS at different skull levels. Then to be useful in R10s you wouldn't be hilariously OP at low skulls/outside of reaper.
    Nistafa on Khyber

  8. #8
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Innokentiy View Post
    could you write a breakdown of your 101 fire lore? I was thinking for a long time but probably Im dumb.
    Sure
    Here you are:
    5% base
    9% Energy Criticals PLs
    10% Fire savant enh
    8% Tiefling enh
    29% Item
    10% Exceptional (Clouded Dreams)
    20% Elemental Spiral (always up, I use 2x Spiral with the same filigrees for a more fast swapping)
    10% Empyrean Magic twist
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  9. #9
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awar1234 View Post
    Oh by the way, good job on awesome build..... can you post your build for the rest of us so we can use it and roll stomp R10? Thanks
    Quick foreword: this is an awful build for R10, not an awesome build. Build is straightforward, sorc 20… I just skipped enlarge and spell penetration feats and I took the ‘dps’ feats: Wellspring of Power, Master of Fire, Scion of Fire…

    The biggest difference between a dps “for fun” sorc and a good endgame high-reaper capable sorc (DC specced) is the equip.

    I went with this setup:
    [Helm] LGS (+35% air spell crit)
    [Necklace] Elyd Charm
    [Trinket] CC (Wizardry, Healing Amplification, Insightful Combustion)
    [Goggles] LGS (+35% fire spell crit)
    [Armor] Mantle of Esher
    [Cloak] Cloak of the Mountain
    [Belt] Legendary Burnscar Sash
    [Wrist] LGS (int sp)
    [Gloves] Legendary Blurfingered Gloves
    [Ring] Clouded Dreams
    [Ring] Legendary Spinneret
    [Boots] SL (Constitution, Lightning Lore, Heal, Quality Charisma)
    [Weapon] Spiral x2 (otto + eye)
    [Weapon] LGS Ooze (MRR, Insightful Constitution, Exceptional Constitution)
    Swap: LGS Ash, LGS Dust, LGS Affirmation, Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfishski View Post
    Impressive numbers, but I think this is where the problem lies - that so shortly after reaper was introduced the speed of power "creep" made this a phrase that can be used.
    Interesting food for thought. R10 was doable from day 1. When reaper came out I completed slavers R10 part 1,2,3 with almost 0 reaper points. Was fun, but definitely not fast and easy.
    Over time, things have become much easier and now R10 can be a zerg fest.

    However, I don’t think reaper trees made a big difference. Simply, skilled endgame players have learned to optimize their choices for reaper. They found the best build options (for sure sorc dps is not among them XD), they grabbed the best equip (I mean, not equipped items only but tons of swap items, clickies like dark discorporation, radiant forcefield etc…) and they adapted their playstyle and brought it to a new level.

    That said, on Cannith I know only a handful of players who can zerg R10. Some reaper endgamers on our server can handle medium and high skulls, but they don’t have commitment, knowledge and equip to zerg R10. Most players are not interested in running high skulls and prefer a more soft approach. And that’s fine ofc
    Last edited by Gilga1; 04-05-2019 at 12:49 PM.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  10. #10
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    [Helm] LGS (+35% air spell crit)
    [Goggles] LGS (+35% fire spell crit)
    Since you use fire spell power and crit chance for casting electrical spells is this lgs for electrical nessisary?

  11. #11
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Since you use fire spell power and crit chance for casting electrical spells is this lgs for electrical nessisary?
    Infernal Sovereign is about spellpower. Spell crit chance and spell crit damage are not affected.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    Interesting food for thought. R10 was doable from day 1. When reaper came out I completed slavers R10 part 1,2,3 with almost 0 reaper points. Was fun, but definitely not fast and easy.
    Over time, things have become much easier and now R10 can be a zerg fest.

    However, I don’t think reaper trees made a big difference. Simply, skilled endgame players have learned to optimize their choices for reaper. They found the best build options (for sure sorc dps is not among them XD), they grabbed the best equip (I mean, not equipped items only but tons of swap items, clickies like dark discorporation, radiant forcefield etc…) and they adapted their playstyle and brought it to a new level.

    That said, on Cannith I know only a handful of players who can zerg R10. Some reaper endgamers on our server can handle medium and high skulls, but they don’t have commitment, knowledge and equip to zerg R10. Most players are not interested in running high skulls and prefer a more soft approach. And that’s fine ofc
    Yes, a R10 zerg isn't exactly the same as an EN zerg. I guess it's just a reflection that the scaling up of mob damage/down of player damage can be overcome by even bigger multipliers available to players such that even 94% scaling down of DPS can still be brute forced (in many quests at least) and that doesn't seem correct for what was supposed to purely be a near-impossible difficulty - of course, it still does require preparation and significant skill to do that brute forcing, not trying to diminish the achievement in making it look easy!

    I don't know that there is a viable solution anymore as we've gone too far in that direction, but I think it would be a more enjoyable game as far as grouping goes if there was less scaling of mobs past low-mid skulls, the stacking multipliers available to players were far more modest (meaning the difference between maxed out clicky-fest player and cooperative but less skilled player was still significant but not orders of magnitude different), and there were more reapers/champion abilities etc past mid skulls playing up the adaptive problem solving aspect of reaper rather than the bigger numbers game highlighted by all the balancing around DPS test kobolds.

    My current experience of mid-high skulls in legendary content when I try it out briefly between TRs is that it's intensely tedious, with either (a) CC'ing then fairly rapidly slaughtering CC'd mobs followed by semi-afk'ing while beating on a redname for what feels like 90% of the quest duration (I don't build/gear for enough of those stacking multipliers), (b) joining a good group and functionally piking/throwing out the odd heal or rez while more maxed out people also quickly kill red names, or (c) without the group, realizing that I've made a horrible mistake and don't have adequate DCs on this life and it won't end well. For a typically solo/duo player, the balance in heroic is much better where one can just scale the skulls to cancel out the number inflation on current build and play where the original dangers of the quest are there again plus odd reaper/champ surprise speedbumps, but it's still fast moving.
    Nistafa on Khyber

  13. #13
    Community Member Innokentiy's Avatar
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    Bah, didnt realized spiral's except stack with ring except... Thanks!
    //Innokentiy//, //Efrosimya Polikarpovna//, //Prokofiy Potapovich//, //Lukerya Mstislavovna// of Argonnessen
    My youtube channel (outdated)
    Hope your eyes are not bleeding after reading my english (not really).

  14. #14
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    Did you ever retest as fire + some earth + falconry No Mercy with meteor?

    Without elemental form so meteor has more caster levels?

    In LD with Sense Weakness/Fire caster levels twisted and an action boost running for helpless damage?

    Using the silent avenger set for more helpless and getting the belt's stacking fire spell power with your offhand LGS?

    If you get x1.5 more damage from more helpless, and x1.5 more damage from upgrading to meteor, would you consider it viable?
    Last edited by Tilomere; 04-14-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Did you ever retest as fire + some earth + falconry No Mercy with meteor?
    Unfortunately no, I completed tiefling lives and TR'ed in fvs. Falconry for sure can be a good option

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    In LD with Sense Weakness/Fire caster levels twisted and an action boost running for helpless damage?
    I don't think LD can be a viable caster destiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Using the silent avenger set for more helpless and getting the belt's stacking fire spell power with your offhand LGS?
    Mmmh, no. You will lose Beacon, so 100 spell power (50 artifact, 50 belt) and +2 artifact DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    If you get x1.5 more damage from more helpless, and x1.5 more damage from upgrading to meteor, would you consider it viable?
    I don't think so. A good melee gives a ton of more dps and reds (where dps matters) can't be helpless.
    Tronko - Ascendance - Cannith

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Using the silent avenger set for more helpless and getting the belt's stacking fire spell power with your offhand LGS?
    You can't wear Silent Avenger and Burnscar Sash together. Belt slot collides.

  17. #17
    Community Member tpbtoc's Avatar
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    What do you thin of the proposed changes to Draconic? Could this bring sorc back to being good at high reapers? I have been playing playing melees for so long I need to ask

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...re#post6217741

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpbtoc View Post
    What do you thin of the proposed changes to Draconic? Could this bring sorc back to being good at high reapers? I have been playing playing melees for so long I need to ask

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...re#post6217741
    A DC sorc is already the best in r10. But for dps, these proposed changes could possibly make a nuker sorc viable, but you would need to run another dc caster to soften the burden. With these changes too its moves a DC specced sorc even further ahead.
    Teth - Revenants

    Babysittin Francine so he dont die 24/7. I used to be good at this game.

  19. #19
    Community Member tpbtoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xTethx View Post
    A DC sorc is already the best in r10. But for dps, these proposed changes could possibly make a nuker sorc viable, but you would need to run another dc caster to soften the burden. With these changes too its moves a DC specced sorc even further ahead.
    Yes, the DC sorc I know is good, was asking about the nuke part that OP is talking about
    How much more % dps it can bring to a nuker on R10 and if it will be enough to help party.

  20. #20
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpbtoc View Post
    Yes, the DC sorc I know is good, was asking about the nuke part that OP is talking about
    How much more % dps it can bring to a nuker on R10 and if it will be enough to help party.
    Maximise +25 sp
    Empower +15 sp
    Intensify +15 sp
    Embolden +10sp
    Quicken +10 sp
    Heighten +5 sp per level
    Savant Form +10% sp

    Efficient Maximize -9 sp
    Efficient Quicken -4 sp or Efficient Empower -6sp
    Efficient Heighten -2 sp per level
    Meridian Fragment -6 sp Maximize
    Cloak of the Mountain -10% sp

    Esitamed cost per cast
    Unmeta'd Mass Hold Monster 50sp
    Unmeta'd Delayed Blasted Fireball 25sp +meta feats with cost reduction aprox 50-70sp per cast

    R10 looks like 10 DBF required to take down single pack and 2 Mass Holds

    (50+50)+(50*10) =600 sp that equates to around 10% of total spell points.

    If you just Hold once and use 1 or 2 DBF's you should be able to make it to next shrine while doing about 10-20% of total damage per pack in R10. These numbers are variable depending on saves. Though your likely be using other spells as well such as Wall of Fire and SLA's if taken.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 07-07-2019 at 03:16 AM.

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