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  1. #101
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    If you leave Stalker with only 3 Tier 5's for melee and Tempest with 5 (must have awesome once) then there is never a good reason to be a melee stalker, other then flavor.

    If Tempest has an AOE option, as strong as DOD, and Stalker has no AOE what so ever then there will never be a reason to be a melee stalker, other then flavor.

    All Tempest tier 5s are must have its always painful to leave a Tempest Tier 5 on the table. If stalker's tier 5's are't just as good and just as painful to leave on the table then there will never be a reason to be a Stalker, other then flavor.

    I would like Stalker to not be just a flavor build. I really like the concept of the switch hitter a Ranger that can do Ranged and Melee equally well. Some one else suggested a versatile power ability to let them use the better of Melee or Ranged Power for both this is a great idea.

    That's the thing. If you want to be JUST melee, you can't beat Tempest. If you want to be JUST Ranged, if they boost Multishot, AA's Killer combo burst would likely keep it in the lead. If you want to be BOTH, you'd go DWS, or that is what I'm looking toward. I've played melee/ranged hybrids before back in the old Multi-shot days. You use the superior DPS of melee, then when Multi-shot is ready, you break out bow for a burst of DPS, then back to melee. It was actually quite flavorful and fun. If bow was more competitive DPS, it would allow for a pattern of Bow for mob fights and when you need safety, and melee to maximize DPS. It is a combo I think that can be made to work without looking to give DWS Tempest levels of melee strength.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    If you leave Stalker with only 3 Tier 5's for melee and Tempest with 5 (must have awesome once) then there is never a good reason to be a melee stalker, other then flavor.

    If Tempest has an AOE option, as strong as DOD, and Stalker has no AOE what so ever then there will never be a reason to be a melee stalker, other then flavor.

    All Tempest tier 5s are must have its always painful to leave a Tempest Tier 5 on the table. If stalker's tier 5's are't just as good and just as painful to leave on the table then there will never be a reason to be a Stalker, other then flavor.

    I would like Stalker to not be just a flavor build. I really like the concept of the switch hitter a Ranger that can do Ranged and Melee equally well. Some one else suggested a versatile power ability to let them use the better of Melee or Ranged Power for both this is a great idea.

    Melee isn't on the table of the OP. Nothing wrong with tempest or it's abilities.




  3. #103
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    Melee isn't on the table of the OP. Nothing wrong with tempest or it's abilities.
    Then you should have named this thread correctly and not tried to conflate Rangers with ranged combat.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Then you should have named this thread correctly and not tried to conflate Rangers with ranged combat.
    Please don't throw that jargon at me to defend yourself. You obviously didn't read the op. Ranged wasn't part of it, but the thread turned that way. NOT towards melee.





  5. #105
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    Please don't throw that jargon at me to defend yourself. You obviously didn't read the op. Ranged wasn't part of it, but the thread turned that way. NOT towards melee.
    I did read the op its a joke, or uniformed (Rangers are one of the strongest pure classes), or the title of the thread is conflating a class with a combat style.

    Regardless of your intentions as OP the best thing this thread can be used for is pointing out weakness in the Ranger class that might merit a looking into at some point. Of which the only suggestion so far that I feel merits any comment or dev consideration is that the Stalker tree has nothing to make it shine on its own.

    AA on the other hand has plenty of good stuff if bows were a viable weapon.

  6. #106
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post

    AA on the other hand has plenty of good stuff if bows were a viable weapon.
    This 100%.

    Deepwood also has a ton of great stuff that, if bows were not as bad as they are, would be a very strong enhancement tree.
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  7. #107
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    DWS is a weird one. Seems like they wanted to make it a "hybrid" tree to complement the other two, but instead it just ends up conflicting with both. Looking at other classes (that recently had their updates), it would be ideal to have three trees with a clear specialization each, but there seems to be some confusion as to whether AA wants to be a CC or a DPS tree, and DWS is just sort of there with just Sniper Shot going for it, and positive spellpower to a lesser extent. I guess they could turn DWS rangers into off-healers, but that's neither here nor there.

    If I were doing it, I'd redo AA completely to focus the tree on CC and other DC-based effects. Buff / add various arrow active attacks rather than imbues, like, make everything as useful as Dispelling and Slaying arrows. Make Inferno Shot actually proc an AoE elemental attack, add other elemental arrows. Turn Smiting / Banishing arrows from imbue to active attack with a DC check for instakill. Give Slaying Arrow a chance / DC check to instakill on a crit. Etc. etc., turn AA into a proper bow-caster. And just take the imbues out completely and leave them to EK where they belong.

    On the other hand, make DWS the supreme weapon damage tree, with bonuses to attack dice, doubleshot, attack speed etc. Move secondary imbues here or make them easier to access without going deep into AA. This way the tree will have a clear purpose, and will synergize well with both other trees, giving players the option to combine good bow damage with spell effects from AA, or with melee damage of Tempest.


    P.S. It also particularly pains me that, if running a pure ranger focused on bows, the only option is to go T5 DWS, AA core, because other combinations are objectively subpar. The DWS core is brilliant, and I'd love to see it have more use.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 04-25-2019 at 08:59 AM.
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  8. #108
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    This 100%.

    Deepwood also has a ton of great stuff that, if bows were not as bad as they are, would be a very strong enhancement tree.
    I thought improved attack rolls would be more popular with players, but nope.

    Attack speed and flat damage is not popular with Devs. So not sure where to go from here .

    AA should be strong but not mandatory for every archer, bow is a fairly common weapon. A warrior (Kensei or Barbarian), but even knights (Paladins, Warpriest) should be able to use it situationally even if not fully specialized. The "old" 4 arrow manyshot allowed this to some extent by a little multi-classing. Now most melee are so ultra specialized that this extra little versatility is lost.

    Of course step one is to make "All bow" builds better . But it seems like we hit a wall.

  9. #109
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    I thought improved attack rolls would be more popular with players, but nope.

    Attack speed and flat damage is not popular with Devs. So not sure where to go from here .

    AA should be strong but not mandatory for every archer, bow is a fairly common weapon. A warrior (Kensei or Barbarian), but even knights (Paladins, Warpriest) should be able to use it situationally even if not fully specialized. The "old" 4 arrow manyshot allowed this to some extent by a little multi-classing. Now most melee are so ultra specialized that this extra little versatility is lost.

    Of course step one is to make "All bow" builds better . But it seems like we hit a wall.
    The issue with attack speed is that it breaks bow attacks. Worse desynch than what you see now.
    Manyshot should be a stance
    AA is accessible by any elf and variant and has too much in it. You get cc, imbues, slayer arrow, ability to create arrows, and a great capstone. Also +1 crit multiplier in there too. This is too much in one tree and makes other trees less attractive.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    Manyshot should be a stance
    Good idea, but only if it had controls in place to keep splash builds from "exploiting" it.

    Many Shot is not worthless, but that's the title I'll give it in its current state. I'm sure many will argue that point, and I don't care about that.

    Many Shot w/ long & short bows as a stance would be a good start.




  11. #111
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    You all know SSG thinks ranged combat is currently overpowered compared to melee, right?
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    You all know SSG thinks ranged combat is currently overpowered compared to melee, right?
    Yeah and they just gave us dual-wielding X-Bows, what a laugh. Like I said earlier, 2 beta players I know left when that ability went live.

    These boards have many threads about imbalance, and Op abilities. And to hear your statement makes me laugh (a lot). (Nothing against you)




  13. #113
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    To be honest i prefer a burst over static dps stances and passives. That said, i dont think the current manyshot "divided back" is that strong, seriously consider some calcs and you'll have to agree. People seem to also assume 100% perfect uptime, which is not true to the gameplay utility, if you keep max uptime you actually lose utility of the burst.

    The net result is that for the large part of the quest static bow dps is abysmal, then for the "important" targets we burst up and annihilate the thing in a few seconds. Which is what i believe to be the source of confusion, other classes usually can do just fine bursts on their own to make these targets last short as well, but maybe a few seconds behind, and they still mow down a quest much quicker.

    I have a post about AA in the suggestions thread, detailing reasons why it is in fact a horrendously low powered tree, aside paralyzing and slayer shot, both of which are the reason bow builds havent completely went dinosaur yet. AA + DWS sorta works in 1 specific cookie fashion, but as soon as DWS is removed, AA cant hold on its own. ( I play at 30 for reference, I think for heroic the imbues are probably overshot below r3, due to spellpower on gear). At 30 even a fully elemental specced AA imbue is just weak, and thats already assumes the suboptimal gearing.

    Making things more homogeneous is not the answer, sadly for the large part of balancing this was the net result.

    It actually makes super hard then to create meaningful build choices when the weapon styles are just become "cosmetic" placeholders.

    In fact if manyshot became just another passive, I think i would be done with archers for good. It would put the final nail in the coffin by removing the last edge case on the pro side of bow builds.

  14. #114
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    You all know SSG thinks ranged combat is currently overpowered compared to melee, right?
    I honestly had no idea, but even then they have fully control what is overpowered at any given time, so that would lead up to some interesting questions why buff xbows, the premier easy-farm mode ranged builds...

    I would not say ranged builds are OP, ranged builds that can boost + hold left button to do top notch dps are OP however, since they arent going to lose much DPS if they miss-graze on their 15-20s cd activated shot. While any that happens, and at 30 it happens a lot, those ranged builds that actually use actives are penalized very heavily compared to boost and hold left button builds.

  15. #115
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    ../.In fact if manyshot became just another passive, I think i would be done with archers for good. It would put the final nail in the coffin by removing the last edge case on the pro side of bow builds.
    Here is the thing. I do not think anyone is proposing to change Manyshot to a stance and be done with it. The idea is to remove the barrier that we have been told is holding back the further development of bow use. Basically, nothing new has happened for bow users in a long, long time. Manyshot and IPS are what the devs cling to. For me, if you change Manyshot to a stance, you can now open up development for better bow using abilities.

    Now here is the rider... I am not in favor of this change if there is not something new introduced along with it to compensate. I have seen some pretty good ideas like an archer feat and things along those lines. Simply making Manyshot a stance with nothing else to compensate for the reduced burst dps and then hoping for a future change is not going to cut it. And we all know the track history of the dev team here... make the nerf now and promise a change for later, and usually its sucks, and then expect us to happily play a broken character for months or years until they get around to doing something... maybe.
    Last edited by barecm; 05-01-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    I have seen some pretty good ideas like an archer feat and things along those lines. Simply making Manyshot a stance with nothing else to compensate for the reduced burst dps and then hoping for a future change is not going to cut it. And we all know the track history of the dev team here... make changes the neft now and promise a change for later, and usually is sucks, and then expect us to happily play a broken character for months or years until they get around to doing something... maybe.

    /This

    And definitely this




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