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  1. #1
    Community Member YoureDown's Avatar
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    Unhappy Scoundrel bards - what even are they?

    So I TR'd my main to a Scoundrel and started playing around with various builds (with the several lesser hearts I had) and I found these results from 15-22:
    (in this thread I'm talking pure bards or bards with a light splash)

    1. Inquisitive is... meh on scoundrel. You're insanely feat starved, you don't get CHA to attack or damage, and you're seriously AP starved.
    2. Swashbuckler is.. also meh. Scoundrel is again feat starved here. If we take the count as a reference, we'll be missing 1 feat.
    3. Damage caster is... not good. I'm running this right now because I wanted it to work, but the damage is laughable. Even the strongest spell, Horn of Thunder, does on a crit the same damage a sorcerer does without one.
    4. Healer/Buffer bard is... not useful. This can't solo, and since nobody even needs buffs these days (except for the occasional FoM), I end up buffing myself and a couple stragglers with a song.

    If we look at the racial tree:

    1. the darkness path is somewhat meh, since while the buffs from being in the shadow are nice, it takes so long to cast darkness that by the time it's up, the area is clear and you need to move, making it pointless.
    2. Using fire/sonic for sonic/fire spells is really niche. It's probably made for sonic casters, but sonic casters are.. eh.
    3. other than that, there's some enchantment dc and 1d4/6/8 sonic on hit with 200% spell power. This would be nice, but above are the reasons it's not useful, since for melee it's starved for feats.

    So my question is what is Scoundrel good at? I tried 5 different builds and didn't land on anything any good. Anyone has any builds / suggestions?
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  2. #2
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    I agree about Obscuring Darkness taking a bit too long to cast. It just doesn't feel useful as a result. I'm trying out a Warchanter/Swash build that leans more on the WC aspect. It's doing okay so far, but only ran a few quests before I went back to my Arti Inquisitive. I don't think Inquisitive is a good fit with Bard... but I've also not spent a lot of time working it out. They just feel ill-suited together, however.

    I think we got Scoundrel simply to have a new Iconic with Tieflings. It also seems like they worked out an admittedly very clever way to introduce new Bard instruments (finally!), and that coupled with the fact that T's are a Cha race and we didn't yet have a Bard iconic equaled Scoundrel. Sorcerer or Warlock would have been better suited as Iconics for Teiflings, as has been discussed.


    I'm thinking the best use for Scoundrels may be just to get Perform as a cross-class skill on a Fey Warlock. Wanted to love em - hasn't been love at first sight though.
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  3. #3
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    The iconic Tiefling should have been a Warlock REGARDLESS of the fact that Warlock is a paid class.

    I'm just sayin'.
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  4. #4
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    I think its less than optimal because they forced tiefling into alignment with bard. Tieflings should have been warlocks, sorcs or maybe rogues (but only maybe.)

    Inquizitive is a universal tree. To me, it has nothing to do with tieflings. Trying to put them together is no different than mixing any other trees that don't synergize well.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoureDown View Post
    So my question is what is Scoundrel good at? I tried 5 different builds and didn't land on anything any good. Anyone has any builds / suggestions?
    I think the key elements of Scoundrel are Ash Imprisonment and Staccato Sovereign. The former virtually demands the 4th core of Spellsinger, so you'll need at least 12 levels of Bard and a heavy investment in Spellsinger.

    Something like the following:
    Code:
    Bard 20
    True Neutral Tiefling Scoundrel
    
    
    Stats
    . . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
    . . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
    Strength. . . . .8. . . .+8. . . .4: CHA
    Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+8. . . .8: CHA
    Constitution. . 14. . . .+8. . . 12: CHA
    Intelligence. . 15. . . .+8. . . 16: CHA
    Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+8. . . 20: CHA
    Charisma. . . . 20. . . .+8. . . 24: CHA
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA
    
    Skills
    . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
    Perform . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Spellcr . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Bluff . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Diplo . . . .4 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Hide. . . . . . . . . . . . . .2 .2 .2 .3 .3 .3 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Move Si . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2 .3 .3 .3 .3 .4 .5 .23
    Tumble. . 4. . . . . . . 3. 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    UMD . . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Jump. . . 4. . . . . .4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . . . . . . . . . . 16
    Heal. . . . . . 1½ 2 .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ . . 11
    Balance . 4. 1. 1. 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
    Swim. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
    . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
    . . . . .32. 9 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 12 12
    
    
    Feats
    
    .1. . . . : Force of Personality
    .3. . . . : Weapon Finesse
    .6. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
    .9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
    12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
    15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
    18. . . . : Shield Mastery
    21 Epic . : Improved Shield Mastery
    24 Epic . : Quicken Spell
    26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    27 Epic . : Improved Shield Bash
    28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    29 Destiny: Arcane Warrior
    30 Epic . : Spell Focus: Enchantment
    30 Legend : Scion of: Feywild
    
    
    Spells
    
    
    1. Expeditious Retreat (1), Feather Fall (2), Focusing Chant (3), Charm Person (5), Detect Secret Doors (16)
    2. Glitterdust (4), Rage (4), Soundburst (5), Suggestion (7), Invisibility (17)
    3. Crushing Despair (7), Displacement (7), Good Hope (8), Haste (10), Cure Serious Wounds (18)
    4. Otto's Sphere of Dancing (10), Hold Monster (10), Freedom of Movement (11), Dimension Door (13), Shout (19)
    5. Greater Heroism (13), Greater Dispel Magic (13), Mass Suggestion (14), Mind Fog (16), Shadow Walk (20)
    6. Otto's Irresistible Dance (16), Mass Cure Moderate Wounds (16), Mass Charm Monster (17), Greater Shout (19)
    Enhancements (80+3 AP) Spellsinger (42 AP)
    • Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead, Music of the Makers, Virtuoso, Maestro of Life and Death
      1. Studies: Magical III, Sonic Blast III
      2. Reverberate II, Marigold Crown: Yellow
      3. Shout III, Spell Song Trance, Charisma
      4. Sustaining Song, Arcane Aid III, Song of Arcane Might, Charisma
      5. Prodigy II, Spell Song Vigor, Mass Hold III
    Tiefling Scoundrel (18 AP)
    • Bloodsong I, Charisma I, Bloodsong II, Charisma II, Bloodsong III
      1. Dashing Weapons
      2. Improved Dashing Weapons
      3. Ash Imprisonment, Greater Dashing Weapons, Scoundrel’s Inspiration III
      4. Staccato Sovereign, Enthralling Weapons
    Swashbuckler (15 AP)
    • Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge
      1. On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
      2. En Pointe III, Fast Movement
      3. Skirmisher, Smooth Flourishes
    Vistani Knife Fighter (8 AP)
    • Knife Expertise
      1. Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
      2. Haste Boost III
    Destiny (24 AP) Fatesinger
    1. Allure III, Music of the Spider Queen, Charisma
    2. Charisma
    3. Reign III, Aria III, Echoes of Arcane, Charisma
    4. Charisma
    5. Fragment of Clarity I, Fragment of Valor II
    6. Turn of the Tide
    Twists of Fate (31 fate points)
    1. Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
    2. Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
    3. School Specialist: Enchantment (Tier 2 Magister)
    4. Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
    5. Unearthly Reactions (Tier 1 Magister)
    This would deal decent, but not exceptional damage. However, it would be great at most CC (plants would be a bit of a nuisance) and a decent healer. Between Fiendish Arpeggio, Reverberate and Feywild+cores, the Fire spellpower-backed Sonic damage boosted by Harmonic Resonance would make for reasonable single target damage.

    You could also go with a more convoluted multi-class approach:

    Code:
    12/6/2 Bard/Sorcerer/Favored Soul
    True Neutral Tiefling Scoundrel
    
    
    Level Order
    
    1. Bard . . . . . .6. Favored Soul. .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
    2. Sorcerer. . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Sorcerer . . . 17. Bard
    3. Favored Soul. . 8. Sorcerer . . . 13. Bard . . . . . 18. Bard
    4. Bard . . . . . .9. Bard . . . . . 14. Sorcerer. . . .19. Bard
    5. Sorcerer. . . .10. Sorcerer . . . 15. Bard . . . . . 20. Bard
    
    
    Stats
    . . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
    . . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
    Strength. . . . .8. . . .+8. . . .4: CHA
    Dexterity . . . 14. . . .+8. . . .8: CHA
    Constitution. . 14. . . .+8. . . 12: CHA
    Intelligence. . 15. . . .+8. . . 16: CHA
    Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+8. . . 20: CHA
    Charisma. . . . 20. . . .+8. . . 24: CHA
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CHA
    
    Skills
    . . . . . B. S .F. B. S .F. B. S .B .S. B. S .B .S. B. B. B. B. B. B
    . . . . . 1. 2 .3. 4. 5 .6. 7. 8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
    Perform . 4. . . . 3. . . . 3. . .2 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Heal. . . . . . 5 . . . .4. 1. 1 .1 .1. 1. 1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Spellcr . 4. 1 .1. . .2. 1 .1 .1. 1. 1 .1 .1. 1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Bluff . . . .4. . . . 4 . . . .3. 1. 1 . . 2 . . 2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
    Diplo . . 4. . . . 1. . .1. 1. . .2 .1. 4. 1 .1 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Tumble. . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3 . . 2. 4. 4. 4. 1. 1. 23
    UMD . . . 4. . . . 3. . . . 3. . .2 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
    Jump. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4 .4 .12
    Balance . 4. . . . 3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
    Swim. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
    . . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
    . . . . .32. 5 .6 10 .6. 6 10. 6 10. 6 11. 7 11. 7 11 11 11 11 12 12
    
    
    Feats
    
    .1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
    .3. . . . : Force of Personality
    .6. . . . : Improved Shield Bash
    .9. . . . : Shield Mastery
    12. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
    15. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
    18. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
    21 Epic . : Improved Shield Mastery
    24 Epic . : Quicken Spell
    26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    27 Epic . : Precision
    28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    29 Destiny: Dire Charge
    30 Epic . : Spell Focus: Enchantment
    30 Legend : Scion of: Feywild
    
    .6 FavSoul: Grace of Battle
    
    .3 Deity. : Follower of: The Blood of Vol
    
    
    Enhancements (80 AP)
    
    Spellsinger (23 AP)
    • Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead, Music of the Makers
      1. Lingering Songs III, Sonic Blast III
      2. Reverberate III, Marigold Crown: Yellow
      3. Enthrallment, Spell Song Trance, Charisma
      4. Sustaining Song
    Tiefling Scoundrel (18 AP)
    • Bloodsong I, Charisma I, Bloodsong II, Charisma II, Bloodsong III
      1. Dashing Weapons
      2. Improved Dashing Weapons
      3. Ash Imprisonment, Greater Dashing Weapons, Scoundrel’s Inspiration III
      4. Staccato Sovereign, Enthralling Weapons
    Swashbuckler (15 AP)
    • Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge
      1. On Your Toes III, Tavern Shanties I
      2. En Pointe III, Fast Movement
      3. Skirmisher, Smooth Flourishes
    Eldritch Knight (Sorcerer) (14 AP)
    • Eldritch Strike, Spellsword, Imbue the Blade
      1. Improved Mage Armor III, Arcane Siphon III
      2. Improved Shield III
      3. Eldritch Accuracy
    War Soul (10 AP)
    • Smite Foe: Melee
      1. Divine Presence III, Toughness I
      2. Smite Weakness, Haste Boost III
    There are obviously a number of variations on this theme.

  6. #6
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    I think the key elements of Scoundrel are Ash Imprisonment and Staccato Sovereign.
    I'll be honest, I hadn't really considered those abilities much on first blush. Been trying AI out - and it is impressive. I don't have Staccato Sovereign yet - but I am rethinking my build as a result of testing Ash Imprisonment out.

    TY for calling that out.
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  7. #7
    Staggering LightBear's Avatar
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    I have been fiddling around with Tiefling Scoundrel as well. (Pun intended)
    Am not going as fast as you guys.

    The main part of the damage output comes from my Diplomancer, without it my dps sourly lacks.

    I agree with the major outcomes so far:
    1) No stat to damage, this is hurting big time. It would have been a greet opportunity to have the skill diplomacy add to damage. The increase of dice from Law on your side just isn't enough, tho it does help a tiny bit.
    2) Slow performing of the special language abilities (Taunt and such from swash but also Talk First from Inqui) and the slow casting of darkness makes you truly be the piker that a bard is supposed to be as the room will be empty before you can finish.
    3) Feat starved, due to the focus on the light crossbows that I'm swashbuckling with I have not been able to take any of the meta feats for spellcasting. Choices I guess.
    4) i'm getting my bolts from a stick as I need the action points elsewhere and I ALWAYS seem to run out of them in the middle of a No Holds Barred. Besides that i'm running through these sticks way faster then with a bow.

    Would have love for some of this getting altered to be more in line with the speed of the rest of the game. I really like that I can swash with two light xbows and it counting as having nothing in my offhand.

  8. #8
    Staggering LightBear's Avatar
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    Reflecting on it a bit more, it would have been better if the skill diplomacy was coupled to the thread generation so that the more diplomacy your char has the less thread you generate.
    And have that linked to your "Step into the room" mechanic so that the higher your diplo is the more often it can go off and/or the longer it lasts.

    Right now it seems to go off every now and then when there is nothing to diplo on and when you are swarmed with a bunch of mobs it does go off.

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