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  1. #41
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Sorry to burst your bubble, Steel. But I have to agree with Ballrus and lyrecono.
    1) Heavy Melee didn't get that much love.
    2) Revamps and update don't mean improvement.

    I welcome your attempts at balancing. And please go on. But maybe you have to change tactics because up until now it doesn't really work out for (heavy) melee.

    Thank you.
    Titus
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  2. #42
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    Cute, but when that mabar dodge clicky and displacement clicky runs out, that heavy melee is dead, a ranger is safely shooting arrows in a faster pace (thanks to doublestrike being broken on a lot of cleave like attacks).
    And thats the entire issue, can't affort to get hit and that's the entire basis for heavy melees to have hp and defences, to trade blows, not getting hit is the best defence (instead of soaking up the damage), hence high reaper quests are turned into a game of tag in my neck of the woods. A lot of the high reaper farmers understand that meta and run the right builds (aka, ranged and casters) to zerg these quest, the same way they did on EE years ago, prior to armor up
    Also, for 2hf, furry is terrible, it recharges much slower on a 2hf toon than on a ranged toon, again due to the far higher rate of attacking. I don't understand anyway, i have shot bows, it requires concentration, represented by feats like presision, how come toons with a bow can use fury to begin with? They get really angry an pull back a bowstring even further?
    Isn't this a case of a ED designed for melee being used more by ranged toons?
    If i were a dev i would fix all the double strike issues 2hf has so the items my team has litered the loot tables with become more usefull, make fury only work with melee, make Shiradi Champion usefull for rangd characters, add x-bow stuff in shadow dancer, make rangers chaotic, add the same amount of damage to enemy arrows that melee mobs have and have them target ranged and casters first at all times.

    tw, a lot of the solo r7+ barb videos i have seen are done in quest with easy dc trash mobs(very susceptible to dire charge) in quests like grim&baret
    In my neck of the woods I see a lot of melee (THF's to be included) using dire charge and dispatching of trash mobs quickly. There is top end DPS in game right now being pushed by dogs with THF. Now this may not be how you want to play your toon or the build you want to use but that is a choice. Others have adapted to the state of the game and made builds to be successful. I agree THF has issues that put them behind other builds, but to say that R2 is the cap is just not true. I'm not against melee or THF's getting improvements, but hyperbole that there is a glass ceiling of R2 just isn't necessary. Make your argument with an accurate depiction and real issues and you will get much further.

    You have to make a choice of what you want to run...a tank or DPS. If you're wanting a hybrid of the two then you will not be as good as either. You will kill slower and will die faster. You simply cannot be given the ability as a non tank to take 3-5 hits in r8+ quests and expect there to be balance. If that was the case then there would be no need for tanks at all. Everything in the game has an opportunity cost and works on a sliding scale. The more DPS you do the more you will lose from other areas such as survivability and damage mitigation. The more you put into these areas the more DPS you will lose. That should just be common sense at this point.

    Oh, and never did i suggest you run in Fury...that just does not make sense if you are looking to kill things quickly as a melee. Btw, you are allowed to use meld as a heavy dps as well.
    ZERG
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  3. #43
    Community Member nateusmaximus's Avatar
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    There is so much I disagree with on this (hijacked) thread I don't know where to start:

    1. Sorry to be judgmental, but if you are building a "heavy" melee without a major investment in intimidate, you are doing it wrong. The only reasons you are running after mobs being kited by casters or ranged is because you aren't screaming at them loudly enough. Caster's gonna cast. Ranger's gonna range. You can of course communicate with party members about letting you grab agro first (this used to be standard practice back in the day), but in the end, light melee, casters, and rangers *should* pull agro if you aren't using hate-amplification and/or intimidate - they gave up defenses for more dps: they try to kill things fast before they get too many shots in, you take more time but aren't as affected by taking hits.

    2. I've seen many highly-competent tanky melee players/builds do very well solo or duo in "high-ish" (i.e. Reaper 4-7) quests. One even inspired me to run as a bear druid for a whole life - it was slower than warlock, sorc, arti, etc. but it was fun and highly survivable due to high defense, good AoE dps, intimidate, self-healing, and CC. I've also run high-defense clerics and warlocks that operated in melee range almost exclusively. The common thread through all of these builds, and their ability to solo or duo mid-range Reaper content is the fact that they have some decent self-healing or HP buffers. I would add Pally and Barb to the list if they are built right, not to mention monks (I know, they aren't "heavy" melee, but they can do a darn good impression of one), if they are built to use the defense and self-healing at their disposal. You can't just fall backwards into a great DC caster build that can solo high-end content, and neither can you do that with a heavy melee.

    3. Many of the "solo-R10" videos and screenshots we've seen are the result of many many many many... many attempts. We just get to watch the one that worked out. I know one player who literally ran a quest 27 times before getting a solo-R10 completion to show off, and he still died several times in it. These runs are not the way people are getting lots of Reaper XP - it's much more efficient to run two R5 quests than one R10 anyway (... even in a group). Running high Reaper content is the result of some combination of loads of practice, a good group with great communication, and the right builds. It's not for everyone and every build and it shouldn't be. The build great at zerging R3-5s isn't going to be the best in R8-10s, and vice-versa, and there are plenty of melee builds to fit either goal. Just don't expect your pure-fighter, all-armor, S&B intimitank (built with a sidecar attached for a glowing cleric to sit in) to solo R7-10s!

    4. A lot of these melee complaints seem to amount to, "my favorite build didn't age well!" Well... join the club. Back before Reaper was introduced, I had a wizard that I thought was perma-capped. She was a completionist with all the caster lives maxed out, all the epic PLs, and all the Iconic's too. She was my go-to EE character for solo, group, or raid runs. She was finely tuned to EE content, a great balance of DCs and DPS... and then Reaper happened. The day Reaper was introduced, I stepped into an R2 (because R1 was just so... 1ish) Slavers Part 1, solo run. I had run that quest solo on EE dozens of times and was very comfortable in it, and I wanted to see what Reaper was like in a known environment. I got smashed like a truck hit me in the first hallway. All my tricks from EE were minimally effective and my self-healing was dramatically reduced. I could have just continued running in EE with her as-is, and some people have done that, but I saw this as a new challenge and so grew and adapted my builds to the new environment. I've seen and played interesting new builds (melee, ranged, and caster), done in interesting new ways, and it has kept the game fresh for me. A couple months ago, I came back from a long hiatus from the game I took due to family reasons, and so I came back with much lower Reaper XP than almost everyone around me and only a couple of racial PLs (while it seemed like everyone around me was already at or near racial completionist). It took a few lives, but I've build up to being able to comfortably solo R3-4 content on my racial-reincarnation treadmill.

    On a final and conciliatory note, I totally agree that issues like broken melee DCs and TWF cleaves not getting proper doublestrike bonuses definitely need to be fixed. Those are all good and valid points. You ought to be able to rely upon things WAI when planning your builds. And many such issues have disparately impacted heavy melee builds - THFs especially (I remember back when THF absolutely Ruled. The. Game.) However, what we can't do is unpack our Minos Legens, Icy Raiment, Chattering Ring, Golden Grieves, Blood Stone, and SoS from our TR cache and warp back to 2010... and still expect pwn Reaper.

  4. #44
    Community Member Cookiegum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    I agree THF has issues that put them behind other builds,
    That's what we are saying. Glad we can agree on something

    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    but to say that R2 is the cap is just not true.
    Maybe it is a stretch, but not quite so. And before you reply "no one should be able to as devs intentended" we know rangers (not the class, but ranged playstyles) can break this celing easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    You have to make a choice of what you want to run...a tank or DPS.
    That single statement proves you have never run an heavy melee yourself. Please do, so we can understand each other better before arguing any further.



    Quote Originally Posted by nateusmaximus View Post
    [...]
    Please read again everything, you missed the point by a mile.


    Also there is a thread here since this topic have little to do with tieflings.

  5. #45
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegum View Post
    That single statement proves you have never run an heavy melee yourself. Please do, so we can understand each other better before arguing any further.
    I have and actually currently am. I do not have illusions of a god mode that existed prior to reaper mode however. I fully accept the fact that heavy DPS only depicts the type of armor you are wearing but still denotes DPS. As a DPS it is not the intent to be able to absorb damage as a tank would. What you want is your cake and eat it, too.

    Are their mechanical issues with THF that allow some builds to get left behind in terms of DPS? Yes
    Should DPS in Medium or Heavy armor be able to stand toe to toe with high skull mobs like a tank does? Absolutely not! Tanks already have such a slim role in the game and is specifically designated for high reaper raids and questing. Taking what little they have so that people can build a toon that can do everything just does not make sense. If you want to absorb hits then put down your tow hander, pick up a shield, repec and run a tank. Otherwise do not whine that you cannot play high skull content on easy mode.
    ZERG
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  6. #46
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    I have and actually currently am. I do not have illusions of a god mode that existed prior to reaper mode however. I fully accept the fact that heavy DPS only depicts the type of armor you are wearing but still denotes DPS. As a DPS it is not the intent to be able to absorb damage as a tank would. What you want is your cake and eat it, too.

    Are their mechanical issues with THF that allow some builds to get left behind in terms of DPS? Yes
    Should DPS in Medium or Heavy armor be able to stand toe to toe with high skull mobs like a tank does? Absolutely not! Tanks already have such a slim role in the game and is specifically designated for high reaper raids and questing. Taking what little they have so that people can build a toon that can do everything just does not make sense. If you want to absorb hits then put down your tow hander, pick up a shield, repec and run a tank. Otherwise do not whine that you cannot play high skull content on easy mode.
    I agree that 2hf is left behind in dps and a lot of its feats need bug fixing (cleaves and doublestrike, lay waste, etc)
    But a heavy melee should be able to trade blows with trash quest mobs, champions, bosses and raid trash/ bosses should require a tank, on high reaper though.
    Why else have hp and prr on a heavy? If you're gone be 1 shotted anyway, why not play a rogue?

  7. #47
    Community Member nateusmaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegum View Post

    Please read again everything, you missed the point by a mile.


    Also there is a thread here since this topic have little to do with tieflings.
    When I see responses like that, I suspect that the writer doesn't *have* a response. Also, the very thread you link to makes many of the same (or similar) points that I do.

  8. #48
    Uber Completionist kain741's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    I agree that 2hf is left behind in dps and a lot of its feats need bug fixing (cleaves and doublestrike, lay waste, etc)
    But a heavy melee should be able to trade blows with trash quest mobs, champions, bosses and raid trash/ bosses should require a tank, on high reaper though.
    Why else have hp and prr on a heavy? If you're gone be 1 shotted anyway, why not play a rogue?
    First things first, you are bouncing between heavy DPS and THF almost synonomously. I have stated that THF is behind other forms of fighting styles and it always has been from day one. It's key issues is glancing blows don't scale and PA which is intended to synergize well with THF does not get the same bang as precision does in high reaper. There are other issues but these are the ones that I think hold it back. Now, light, heavy or no armor can use THF so this issue is not tied to your other complaint at all so let's not intertwine them.
    I can and have made a tank with 5.5k hp, 400 PRR and 400 AC in cloth armor....the point being that weight of armor means nothing to survivability in regards to HP or PRR. The only factors that amror weight drives is MRR due to implemented caps and set bonuses tied to specific name armors. That is it, nothing else at all...just MRR. In exchange light and no armor can have evasion and a high dodge bonus. The ability to absorb physical attacks in different types of armor is not relevant in the least.
    ZERG
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  9. #49
    Community Member nateusmaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kain741 View Post
    What you want is your cake and eat it, too.

    Are their mechanical issues with THF that allow some builds to get left behind in terms of DPS? Yes
    Should DPS in Medium or Heavy armor be able to stand toe to toe with high skull mobs like a tank does? Absolutely not! Tanks already have such a slim role in the game and is specifically designated for high reaper raids and questing. Taking what little they have so that people can build a toon that can do everything just does not make sense. If you want to absorb hits then put down your tow hander, pick up a shield, repec and run a tank. Otherwise do not whine that you cannot play high skull content on easy mode.
    Bingo! This x10.

    A lot of these "heavy melee needz more LUV!!!" posts remind me of the "Barb Slobberers" of DDO circa 2010, who took a very narrow view of what the game should be about, ignored all evidence against their views, and heaped hate on everything that focused on play-styles they didn't like.

    Also, this issue suffers from loads of ambiguous definitions and fuzzy boundaries. What it needs to introduce clarity is some very narrow statements that can be addressed individually. I see several different claims being mixed together and/or conflated in the "heavy melee" issue, which include:

    1) THF has some bugs that need to be addressed. I think this is unambiguously true, and the devs are well aware of this - they make the darn game, they know!

    2) THF should do more dps than TWF or SWF. I think this is unambiguously false. Which melee style does more dps is highly dependent upon loads of build choices and circumstantial factors. THF maybe should do a bit more dps than it currently does due to bugs, but I'm going to make potentially controversial claims and say that THF still does more dps than TWF or SWF against a group of mobs, and THF should do less single-target dps than TWF and SWF all other things equal (since those styles are less effective against groups). Finally, I've seen plenty of recent "DPS test" videos where THF performs similarly against a single target as TWF - if you look you can find them too.

    3) Melee characters with lots of damage mitigation (via heavy or medium armor, and/or a shield) should do as much dps as a "light melee" in cloth or light armor. They already can and do...

    4) Melee characters wearing heavy or medium armor should be able to be hit more times than characters wearing light or cloth armor in high-reaper content. This is also already true. In probability terms, the melees in light or cloth armor is lowering the probability of being hit (via dodge) but if they are hit they will take more damage. Characters in medium or heavy armor will take less damage per hit, but will be able to be hit more times, all other things equal. This is just math. Yes, there are some monks who manage to get top-tier damage mitigation, but they can't and won't achieve top-tier dps at the same time.

    5) Melee characters should be able to solo R10. They can: I saw a video last week of a ranger soloing an R10 quest. The same techniques he used could be used by a pally, fighter, or barb. However, soloing R10 isn't easy no matter what type of character you are playing, and the vast majority of players are going to better acquire Reaper XP doing two R5 quests than one R10. R5 is readily accessible to a very well-built melee with the PLs and Reaper points - which brings me to the next issue.

    6) Melee characters should be able to solo mid-range Reapers (R3-R7). They can... Even ones without racial completionist and 75+ Reaper points can do so. Three lives ago I did plenty of solo R3-4 quests as a freeking BEAR in hide armor and a shield! If bears in medium armor and shields don't count as heavy melee, I don't know what does. At the time I had about 22 reaper points and only 6 racial PLs. If I had all the bells and whistles already, I'm sure I would have been in the solo R5+ range. This last life that I just finished, I ran as a sorc with 26 reaper points and 9 racial PLs. My solo runs (mid-life) were still typically R4ish and I did do more DPS, but... I also died a lot more... because I was way more squishy. It was fun and definitely faster when I didn't die, but my times as a melee-cleric, melee-druid, ES warlock, and pally have been far "safer" feeling.

    I'm sure there are many more issues that are getting stuffed into the "heavy melee" grab-bag, but I've run out of steam. So, to those who disagree with me (in general or in particulars), I'd invite you to "unpack" the heavy-melee issue yourself. Please, make some highly-specific statements that can be narrowly addressed and discussed.

  10. #50
    Systems Designer
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    Quote Originally Posted by nateusmaximus View Post
    Bingo! This x10.
    Hah, you ended up typing out 100% of my thoughts. +1. Oh, also, feel free to poke us about THF bugs (not in this thread! get out of my tiefling thread!!! Out, out!!! :P) and we'll see what we can do.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  11. #51
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hah, you ended up typing out 100% of my thoughts. +1. Oh, also, feel free to poke us about THF bugs (not in this thread! get out of my tiefling thread!!! Out, out!!! :P) and we'll see what we can do.
    No thanks,

    I'm fed up with bug reports and waiting for gm responces, if the dev team, by now, still doesn't know about the issues i see no need to fill in even more.
    I'll skip this expansion and race and check the game out when something interesting is brought to the table, like a propper bruiser race or propper work gets done on actual melee classes (or heaven forbid a new full melee class gets presented), instead of all the "flavor of the week" reworks to get support and caster classes into melee.

    I guess i'll see ya 10 years?

  12. #52
    Community Member Cookiegum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hah, you ended up typing out 100% of my thoughts. +1. Oh, also, feel free to poke us about THF bugs (not in this thread! get out of my tiefling thread!!! Out, out!!! :P) and we'll see what we can do.
    Just admit pallies need love too and we all be good

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegum View Post
    Just admit pallies need love too and we all be good
    Kotc is on our retouch list for this year, per the Producer's Letter
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  14. #54
    Community Member Cookiegum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Kotc is on our retouch list for this year, per the Producer's Letter
    That's what keeps my hopes high and vocal lol

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