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  1. #81
    Community Member DaviMOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Many players like to have alts. And we feel that the excess of grind that there is currently makes them unviable. There is no way to catch up, before we do, they have already introduced another level of grind. It's time to stop producing more grind if they are not going to move to account-based progression systems. There is simply already too much!

    So no. For you, with only one toon, it will only be a matter of making one more life. For the players of alts is to add more grind to a pile already very high.
    I can see it now. Sorry, never thought someone would think about completionist in multiple characters. I do have many but never thought about getting completionist on all of it. Personally I dont think its worth or even reasonable to balance things with that in mind .I still think its more of a winning than a loosing situation there. Maybe I'm biased on that as i love new classes( in any game).But everyone have its own way to play and enjoy the game, right? Good luck on that giant journey and have fun!

  2. #82
    Community Member DRoark's Avatar
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    Default The Grind

    I see both sides, but it's not really about "the grind", so much as the game setup penalizes you for getting completionist at all. If I want that extra +1 stat bonus/DC/etc for my final build,
    I can "only" have it if I relevel my character... TWICE .... everytime they add something, instead of just having an account-wide passive feat which would promote people playing alts, trying
    new things, and not having to worry about getting "X class" stuffed up their arse everytime they think they're done.

    Benefits of an "account" passive class completionist feat: They add a class, you get to make one, play it and TR, and not have to bork up your main/raiding character by TRing him into
    the new class, then TRing him BACK into whatever you wanted him to be, and reflag everything, losing out on weeks (or more) of grouping, guild raids, and avoiding general frustration.
    Secondly, this would give the players a choice. If they want the passive bonuses on a particular character, they can at least CHOOSE what character to TR, since it's account-related. I'd
    be in favor of this, since people can do casting TRs on one person, melee on another, etc, and work towards an account class completion (special feat), and enjoy alts at their own pace.

    Other games have several "account" flags and benefits, and are very successful doing so. I would LOVE to play some of the classes more, but TBH everytime I have to grind something
    out by force, I just plug through it with no enjoyment just to get it over with.
    Last edited by DRoark; 04-23-2019 at 09:10 PM.

  3. #83
    Community Member DaviMOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRoark View Post
    I see both sides, but it's not really about "the grind", so much as the game setup penalizes you for getting completionist at all. If I want that extra +1 stat bonus/DC/etc for my final build,
    I can "only" have it if I relevel my character... TWICE .... everytime they add something, instead of just having an account-wide passive feat which would promote people playing alts, trying
    new things, and not having to worry about getting "X class" stuffed up their arse everytime they think they're done.

    Benefits of an "account" passive class completionist feat: They add a class, you get to make one, play it and TR, and not have to bork up your main/raiding character by TRing him into
    the new class, then TRing him BACK into whatever you wanted him to be, and reflag everything, losing out on weeks (or more) of grouping, guild raids, and avoiding general frustration.
    Secondly, this would give the players a choice. If they want the passive bonuses on a particular character, they can at least CHOOSE what character to TR, since it's account-related. I'd
    be in favor of this, since people can do casting TRs on one person, melee on another, etc, and work towards an account class completion (special feat), and enjoy alts at their own pace.

    Other games have several "account" flags and benefits, and are very successful doing so. I would LOVE to play some of the classes more, but TBH everytime I have to grind something
    out by force, I just plug through it with no enjoyment just to get it over with.
    I just failed to understand why someone would complain about the 'hamster wheel' when they conscientiously decided to run it multiple times. Other thing is about that need for completionist specially considering you like to play alts.
    Its a special reward for a greater effort that defines the accomplishments of that specific character and its not that needed. I dont have it and enjoy the game and content whitout it, there is people in my guild that keeps doing r7-r10 whitout it.
    Some builds cant even afford to spend a feat for the class one. No one is forced to do anything if not you by imposing those needs to yourselves.

    While I do agree with account flag benefits( as we also have it here such as FVS class, Artificer Class, 32 points builds, veteran status) I see completionist much more about that single character instead of account trophy.

    Personally I defined my gameplay the way you said. I have a THF(main), a ranged bowman xbowman, a healer/support , a spellcaster, a tank and a TWF character and a pet based character that I gave up.
    Part of the fun is finding a way to build a character with the given idea in most uncommon classes for it. In the end having 3 fighter past lives is way more relevant than the completionist status on my THF, variants of that can be applied to any of my characters. What is +2 in all status that costs you hundreds of hours that you forced upon yourself when you have characters achieving 120 points in their main stat? Of course it helps but its far from required/needed.
    Last edited by DaviMOC; 04-24-2019 at 06:36 AM.

  4. #84
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indubitably View Post
    I know SSG have a fetish for universal trees now and exactly 3 trees per class... so it would probably be a universal tree now.
    Exactly three? I know Sorcerers aren't Int based, but even they know the difference between three and five.
    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    Yngvarr Stormedge: Aye, laddie. Aye. That be a mighty fine pooop deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  5. #85
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    Exactly three? I know Sorcerers aren't Int based, but even they know the difference between three and five.
    You have a point of course but Savants are also 4 flavors of the same tree and exclusionary as well, that is you can't have the opposite element which means you can't choose to ignore EK and spend in three Savants. You are limited to two Savant trees and EK. 5 initial choices but still only 3 trees. :/

    Oh and great MP reference.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
    Aelonwy - Wydavir - Metaluscious - Aertimys - Aelyrra - Kaelaria - Lunaura - Aelurawynn - Saurscha - Crystalorn - Aurvaeyn - Vaelyns - Wyllowynd

  6. #86
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    Exactly three? I know Sorcerers aren't Int based, but even they know the difference between three and five.
    Sorcerer is a lie, only 2 trees:
    - EK
    - Elemental Savant of [Flavor], pick 1 and then pick maybe another that is least conflicting with your 1.

  7. #87
    Community Member DRoark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaviMOC View Post
    I just failed to understand why someone would complain about the 'hamster wheel' when they conscientiously decided to run it multiple times. .
    I agree... It's not worth it. The game actually penalizes you for bothering to finish completionist, both by
    wasting the feat slot (unlike the poorly designed Racial TRs), and by the confiscatable feat mechanic.

    It's an outdated and badly designed system. You "get stronger" through multiple lives, but yet forget it all when "Class Bob" gets introduced?
    Adding more lives doesn't make that +2 get any stronger either, so per life it gets weaker and weaker VS the time required to get it. Temporarily.
    I'm sorry Little Tim. You just learned how to ride a bike, so you're going to forget how to do a pushup. And math. TR so you can tie shoes again.
    This is why more people we talk to stopped TRing and just focus on gear, since it's 42x harder to get +2, than to get +19..... and you can BUY +8.

    Way to go.
    Last edited by DRoark; 04-27-2019 at 02:24 PM.

  8. #88
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Many players like to have alts. And we feel that the excess of grind that there is currently makes them unviable.

    Well, you're just wrong. And I sincerely doubt that your 'many players' and 'we' citations is one you've made from anything other than your own personal experience. If I'm wrong, then please feel free to cite your extensive player surveys. I'll wait here, amused and with popcorn.

    Any character is viable. It's all about the player, not the character. If you can't feel 'complete' without working your way through 'the excess of grind' this is all on you. A game needs goals to achieve in order to challenge the players of that game. DDO offers players goals to achieve in discreet bundles, from the easy to achieve goal of beating the next dungeon to the difficult to achieve goal of picking up things like Completionist or Racial Completionist, or whatever. If these goals didn't exist, neither would DDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    Yngvarr Stormedge: Aye, laddie. Aye. That be a mighty fine pooop deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  9. #89
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Sorcerer is a lie, only 2 trees:
    - EK
    - Elemental Savant of [Flavor], pick 1 and then pick maybe another that is least conflicting with your 1.
    Well, and at the risk of repeating myself, but Sorcs aren't Int based and even they know the difference between 3 and 2.

    If you count a lockout as being mutually exclusive then you could argue that all Enhancement trees are mutually exclusive since you can only have Tier 5 in one of them. Or you could argue that all Enhancement trees are mutually exclusive since you can only take one core capstone. The point is that mutually exclusive choices isn't a limiter on the options available to the character. Only their choices start to restrict their options, but then that's what choices means. A choice amongst 5 Enhancement trees is still a choice from 5 options.

    And hell, it only costs plat to clear the Enhance trees and make entirely different choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    Yngvarr Stormedge: Aye, laddie. Aye. That be a mighty fine pooop deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  10. #90
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niminae View Post
    Well, you're just wrong. And I sincerely doubt that your 'many players' and 'we' citations is one you've made from anything other than your own personal experience. If I'm wrong, then please feel free to cite your extensive player surveys. I'll wait here, amused and with popcorn.

    Any character is viable. It's all about the player, not the character. If you can't feel 'complete' without working your way through 'the excess of grind' this is all on you. A game needs goals to achieve in order to challenge the players of that game. DDO offers players goals to achieve in discreet bundles, from the easy to achieve goal of beating the next dungeon to the difficult to achieve goal of picking up things like Completionist or Racial Completionist, or whatever. If these goals didn't exist, neither would DDO.
    If you say that I only express an opinion, you are doing the same thing. You have no more reliable data than I have to support your claims. However, it is evident that there is a tendency to abandon the alts, and that the feeling of dissatisfaction with the situation of the alts is wide. You just have to ask in game and you will see. Therefore, something happens with the alts.

    I will not answer you again, because this is an offtopic in this thread. But I hope you are aware that you have absolutely no data that validates your absolute security.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  11. #91
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjoois View Post
    A new class and a new racial variant. I'd say those are pretty big news.

    Let the speculation begin!

    BTW...Thanks, Sev.
    The speculation has been going on in the 4 months since this was announced.

    The new class will be Alchemist.

    We don't yet know what the racial variant will be.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Hi Welcome

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