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  1. #1
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    Default EK Weapon Choice

    Is Bastard Sword the best weapon choice for S&B Eldritch Knight as it is for Paladin S&B?

    And could Bastard Sword under the right build be best for SWF with 20% base glancing blow damage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffey View Post
    Is Bastard Sword the best weapon choice for S&B Eldritch Knight as it is for Paladin S&B?

    And could Bastard Sword under the right build be best for SWF with 20% base glancing blow damage?
    You can't use SWF with Shields (except for Swashbucklers). In theory, you could use Bastard Sword + Buckler with 3 levels of Bard. However, this would almost certainly be a sub-optimal approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    You can't use SWF with Shields (except for Swashbucklers). In theory, you could use Bastard Sword + Buckler with 3 levels of Bard. However, this would almost certainly be a sub-optimal approach.
    I was asking 2 separate build questions.

    1. Pure Wizard EK S&B with Bastard Sword instead of the typical khopesh build using a large shield and armor.
    Feats - bastard sword prof, shield prof, shield masteries, THF line, IC, precision (doesnt really matter the question is about the glancing blow procs)
    Bastard Sword should be better at S&B just like Paladin is with the right build choices because of the 60% glancing blow damage.

    2. Pure Wizard EK Bastard Sword with Orb

    Essentially the typical feats for eg SWF line, bastard sword prof, precision, IC etc (again a typical build with bastard sword, instead of khopesh, for the 20% base glancing blow damage)

    The same idea as this post: Vanguard-Paladin-for-new-players where EllisDee37 explains to you how glancing blows actually process and the bastard sword outshines the khopesh.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffey View Post
    1. Pure Wizard EK S&B with Bastard Sword instead of the typical khopesh build using a large shield and armor.
    Feats - bastard sword prof, shield prof, shield masteries, THF line, IC, precision (doesnt really matter the question is about the glancing blow procs)
    Bastard Sword should be better at S&B just like Paladin is with the right build choices because of the 60% glancing blow damage.
    You might be over-thinking this. If you're playing an EK with Knight's Transformation, there's no reason at all not to use Epic Defensive Fighting as well. That means you have to take the THF feats anyway. That being said, this is a lower damage option than #2 no matter how you slice it.

    2. Pure Wizard EK Bastard Sword with Orb

    Essentially the typical feats for eg SWF line, bastard sword prof, precision, IC etc (again a typical build with bastard sword, instead of khopesh, for the 20% base glancing blow damage)
    This will be higher physical damage on the above. With Khopesh (or Long Sword/Battle Axe with Knight's Training), you'll be generating 1.7 * 1.3 = 2.21x damage. With Bastard Sword THF, you'd be generating 1.45x + 60% * 75% = 1.85 damage.

    The Khopesh would generate 1.3 Spellsword procs/attack (normalized). The Bastard Sword THF would generate 1 + 35% * 75% = 1.26 procs/attack (Human/Half Orc with Malicious Weapons twist).

    For Bastard Sword SWF, you'd be doing 1.45 * 1.3 + 0.15 = 2.035x physical. You'd be generating 1 * 1.3 + 15% * 75% = 1.4125 procs/attack

    So if we assume that some P is the percentage of your damage from physical:

    Khopesh = 2.21P + 1.3(1-P)
    Bastard Sword SWF = 2.035P + 1.4125(1-P)

    Thus, if P < 0.3913, Bastard Sword would be superior (assuming I did the math right).

    In any case, my suspicion is that both are a terrible choice compared to daggers due to two factors:

    1. There are awesome daggers at every level including cap. In contrast, Bastard Swords, Dwarven Axes, Khopeshes, Long Swords and Battle Axes are a bit thinner on the ground.

    2. Daggers are supported by the Vistani tree.

    #2 is actually a pretty big deal when you consider both leveling and your endgame gearing concerns.

    While leveling, your Daggers are almost immediately 20% (maybe 25% - have to recheck) better than any other weapon you can use in terms of attack rate due to the extra doublestrike. While this merely digs the Daggers out of a hole with the physical damage, it directly multiplies your magical damage. In endgame, where you can conceivably hit the doublestrike cap, Vistani means that you can gear Beacon of Magic rather than Silent Avenger (bolstering your save DC and ramping up your magical damage).

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    Thank you for your detailed response it is much appreciated.

    I was not looking at a comparison of the two builds or epic defensive fighting but rather focusing on the bastard sword first replacing the khopesh for a S&B heavy armor large shield EK build with the THF line to gain 60% glancing blow damage and secondly replacing the khopesh with a bastard sword for a SWF to gain 20% base glancing blow damage.

    After reading what EllisDee37 had to say about bastard swords and glancing blow procs these 2 builds look very viable to me now.

    Thank you for confirming that Bswords are superior to khopeshi. I will go ahead with the S&B build.

    I prefer the S&B build along with with improved shield bash and EK secondary shield bash enhancements (which also procs spellsword imbues) should put out some respectable damage numbers.

    I have no interest in dagger builds atm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffey View Post
    I prefer the S&B build along with with improved shield bash and EK secondary shield bash enhancements (which also procs spellsword imbues) should put out some respectable damage numbers.
    Be aware that Strategic Combat II doesn't affect shield bashes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjarki View Post
    Be aware that Strategic Combat II doesn't affect shield bashes.
    Yea i noticed that a while back when i got the harper tree before the EK revamp. I was hoping they were going to add int to damage for both in the EK tree.

    With the imbue and other enhancement adds it is still damage gained. Would be a gain of 40-50 damage for shield bashes end game though if it were so.

    I was looking at this chart some time ago about the math behind shield bashes. It is linked at the bottom of this ddowiki, which is all about shield bashing
    There is a point of diminishing returns shown in the graphs and scales. I think 35% is worthwhile to me and with this hybrid type of build gearing seems difficult enough without adding shield bashing in somewhere.

    Should pan out to 30 shield bashes/min. And i will take strategic combat II for the sword damage.

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    While not melee, shuriken seems like an interesting choice for EK. It is very easy to "CAP" at constant x4 throws. And the throw animation can be boosted very significantly, over +100%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffey View Post
    Is Bastard Sword the best weapon choice for S&B Eldritch Knight as it is for Paladin S&B?

    And could Bastard Sword under the right build be best for SWF with 20% base glancing blow damage?
    I concur with someone else that if I was doing SWF with a shield I would go daggers and invest in vistani. The question now becomes do you go tier 5 vistani or tier 5 EK? Glancing blows become obsolete in reapers so bastard sword would only be a good choice outside of reapers IMHO. Scimitar, Dwarven Axe (if dwarf) and now longsword are better choices than BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffey View Post
    I was asking 2 separate build questions.

    1. Pure Wizard EK S&B with Bastard Sword instead of the typical khopesh build using a large shield and armor.
    Feats - bastard sword prof, shield prof, shield masteries, THF line, IC, precision (doesnt really matter the question is about the glancing blow procs)
    Bastard Sword should be better at S&B just like Paladin is with the right build choices because of the 60% glancing blow damage.

    2. Pure Wizard EK Bastard Sword with Orb

    Essentially the typical feats for eg SWF line, bastard sword prof, precision, IC etc (again a typical build with bastard sword, instead of khopesh, for the 20% base glancing blow damage)

    The same idea as this post: Vanguard-Paladin-for-new-players where EllisDee37 explains to you how glancing blows actually process and the bastard sword outshines the khopesh.
    The math is on glancing blows only is useful outside of reapers. Glancing blow damage does not scale properly in reapers and the higher you go the more irrelevant it becomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    I concur with someone else that if I was doing SWF with a shield I would go daggers and invest in vistani. The question now becomes do you go tier 5 vistani or tier 5 EK? Glancing blows become obsolete in reapers so bastard sword would only be a good choice outside of reapers IMHO. Scimitar, Dwarven Axe (if dwarf) and now longsword are better choices than BS.
    SWF doesnt work with a shield equipped but i think you meant an orb and a dagger. Yes i agree it would be the best damage overall for single target damage with vistani. Dwarven war axe is not subject to knights training feat but you probably meant a battle axe.

    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    The math is on glancing blows only is useful outside of reapers. Glancing blow damage does not scale properly in reapers and the higher you go the more irrelevant it becomes.
    I have never heard of this. But 60% of less damage output would be 60% none the less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffey View Post
    SWF doesnt work with a shield equipped but i think you meant an orb and a dagger. Yes i agree it would be the best damage overall for single target damage with vistani. Dwarven war axe is not subject to knights training feat but you probably meant a battle axe.



    I have never heard of this. But 60% of less damage output would be 60% none the less.
    It’s the way reaper damage penalty scales. It’s 60% of overall damage outside of reaper, but how and where the math is applied makes is exponentially lower than 60% the higher the skull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    It’s the way reaper damage penalty scales. It’s 60% of overall damage outside of reaper, but how and where the math is applied makes is exponentially lower than 60% the higher the skull.
    How exactly does it scale? Are you referring to some sort of rounding error phenomenon or the (known) DR issue with glancing blows?

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    Nightmother's Scepter > All!

    Mwahahaha.

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