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  1. #1
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    Default Now is the opportunity to tweak some useless spells..

    Now that devs are having sort of a spell pass, it's the opportunity to tweak some basic useless spells that got behind throughout many years of changes. Of course there are many, but here's my small list.

    1) Charms and Suggestions are way too similar. My idea is to leave Charms as is, but change Suggestions to last only a few seconds yet gaining a +5 bonus to DC. So, Suggestions would be the option for reliable short term control, while Charms would remain long term, harder to land.

    2) Cloudkill, Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud are basically worse than the lvl 4 area DOTs. Cloud Kill could have a scaling CON damage. Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud could just have a damage boost to become stronger than the lvl 4 spells.

    3) Resist Energy is still split in 5 different spells. As a QoL change, they could easily be merged into a single buff applied to all resists (and cost more of course).

    4) DOTs need more damage now after the last pass, especially Dragon Bolt and Eladar's Electric Surge. Also, Horrid Wilting and Disintegrate are way behind. Even doing untyped damage, remember they have their own drawbacks and are WAY behind.

    5) Bull's Strength (and similars) would be more useful if changed to +2 insightful bonus. Insightful is much harder to find at low levels. Also, Mass Bull's Strength is absolutely useless at lvl 6, and could also be changed to +2 insightful bonus or even +2 untyped bonus (to stack with everything else). Or make it become single target with +4 insightful bonus.
    Last edited by lppmor; 01-24-2019 at 04:39 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    Now that devs are having sort of a spell pass, it's the opportunity to tweak some useless spells that got behind throughout many years of changes.

    1) Charms and Suggestions are way too similar. My idea is to leave Charms as is, but change Suggestions to last only a few seconds yet gaining a +5 bonus to DC. So, Suggestions would be the option for reliable short term control, while Charms would remain long term, harder to land.

    2) Cloudkill, Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud are basically worse than the lvl 4 area DOTs. Cloud Kill could have a scaling CON damage. Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud could just have a damage boost to become much stronger than the lvl 4 spells.

    3) Resist Energy is still split in 5 different spells. As a QoL change, they could easily be merged into a single buff applied to all resists (and cost more of course).

    4) Acid DOTs need more damage now after the last pass, especially Dragon Bolt. Also, Horrid Wilting and Disintegrate are way behind. Even doing untyped damage, remember they have their own drawbacks and are WAY behind.

    5) Bull's Strength (and similars) would be more useful if changed to +2 insightful bonus. Also, Mass Bull's Strength (lvl 6) is absolutely useless now, and could be changed to add +4 insightful bonus or +2 untyped bonus (to stack with everything else).
    1) Traditionally charm was the "wizard's choice" and suggestion was the "sorc's choice": charm lasts a lot longer, but has a recurring save, so it favours wizards who presumably can get a higher DC than sorcs.

    2) CK has con damage, incen cloud blinds and acid fog has a slight slow component + ac penalty. CK and acid fog confers conealment. They also all do different damage types presumably useful to different mobs.

    3) Resists remaining as seperate spells remain useful as individual buffs in specific situations. There is no reason to buff cold resist before the boss fight in Enter the Kobold, for example. A QoL option to cast all together maybe, but to wrap all of them up in replacement no. This is also available in ES and Sentinel if my memory serves.

    4) Wait for it, I guess. They specifically only boosted single blast spells in the previous update. Devs are probably aware but weren't in a position to work on it with the conditions they set to boost spell damage.

    5) The low level +4 stat buffs (in pot form) are still useful to hit stat check levers at lower levels. Mass bear/bull are at times still cast on puppies in HoX. I don't think they are comfortable handing out another stacking +2 stat pot regardless. They weren't very much used back in the day in spell form anyway.
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  3. #3
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    Personally I'd like to see resist increase again at caster level 20 to give 40 resist - given that items now go up to 60? Would like to also see a mass resist x and an individual single cast resist all even if it was caster only - obviously would have to take up higher level slots that the resist spell.

    Lots of buffs have been left behind by the item inflation - barkskin, shield of faith, divine power, holy aura (deflection and resistance elements), shield - all pale in comparison to what's available on items.

    And the protection from x range of spells - at higher levels these don't even absorb one enemy spell cast. Even just remove the cap (caster level 10 I believe?).

  4. #4
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    Default Yes, but not those spells...except maybe the fogs

    I'd prefer to see a tweak on epic DPS for all spells. The ones listed have situational value, but you rightly point out the fogs/clouds are very underwhelming.

    Re: Resists - I'd just like to see a 'Spell Set' (like a weapon set) that allows me to cast my usual 12 buffs with one button press. No need to mess with spells.

    However, Epic DPS on a Wizard totally sucks. The new level 9 spells are a slight improvment, but to come close to (weak) melee DPS they need to be castable every second, not every 12 seconds.

    This may in fact be part of the answer: at level 20, drop spell cooldowns by 50% then drop them by a further 4% per level. By 30, DPS will be decent but expensive (which is fine).

  5. #5
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    How come nobody mention divine spells...

    Some spell like Order/chaos wrath, flamestrike/ sunburst/ etc, seldom see people using.

  6. #6
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    How come nobody mention divine spells...

    Some spell like Order/chaos wrath, flamestrike/ sunburst/ etc, seldom see people using.
    I use Order's Wrath all the time in places like Sorrowdusk. It's amazing. Had a guildmate once who called it my "cheater spell". I agree it's seldom used - but not (imho) because they need tweaking.


    I think the biggest issue with spell face is scaling, across the board. The total spell libraries of every flavor, stripe, and class really need some systemic changes to keep up with today's game. Some spells are too awesome not to use, while others are nearly always dead weight. And again, I think it's mostly due to how they do or don't scale with leveling and the damage expectations at higher levels.
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  7. #7
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    How come nobody mention divine spells...

    Some spell like Order/chaos wrath, flamestrike/ sunburst/ etc, seldom see people using.
    Sunburst is awesome if you have the DC's for it. It's a cheap AOE blind and can instantly kill some undead (like shadows). Sun domain cleric basically gets to spam it as an SLA. Flamestrike is decent if you're a favored soul, but not very good if you're a cleric or druid. I agree; the alignment spells are mostly trash (although it sucks being hit by unholy blight or chaos hammer).

    Holy smite is terrible. It needs to deal at least 3x ~ 4x the damage it does, now.

    Firestorm is decent if you have enough spellpower, but it's so slow and the targeting is glitchy, at best.

    The symbol spells are largely terrible with the minor exception of symbol of death, which is only good for a few negs. I'd love to see an enhancement tree focused around utilizing symbol spells and make them useful.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjw View Post
    I'd prefer to see a tweak on epic DPS for all spells. The ones listed have situational value, but you rightly point out the fogs/clouds are very underwhelming.

    Re: Resists - I'd just like to see a 'Spell Set' (like a weapon set) that allows me to cast my usual 12 buffs with one button press. No need to mess with spells.

    However, Epic DPS on a Wizard totally sucks. The new level 9 spells are a slight improvment, but to come close to (weak) melee DPS they need to be castable every second, not every 12 seconds.

    This may in fact be part of the answer: at level 20, drop spell cooldowns by 50% then drop them by a further 4% per level. By 30, DPS will be decent but expensive (which is fine).
    Assuming you have the SP to spam those spells, that is. And endlessly chugging store pots doesn't really count. Pure spell DPS on a wizard should also not be a replacement for their relative strengths in instakill and CC. The spell damage only really tapers in high epic relative to mob HP anyway, and please do not put reaper into consideration.
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  9. #9
    Community Member thunir's Avatar
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    Default Possibly

    I’d much rather see new spells, cantrips and familures. Not to take away from your point but I’m still waiting on time stop, gate and mirror image.

    Spells I’d like to see updated, fire trap, both globes of invulnerability to actually be useful.

  10. #10
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    Now that devs are having sort of a spell pass, it's the opportunity to tweak some useless spells that got behind throughout many years of changes.

    1) Charms and Suggestions are way too similar. My idea is to leave Charms as is, but change Suggestions to last only a few seconds yet gaining a +5 bonus to DC. So, Suggestions would be the option for reliable short term control, while Charms would remain long term, harder to land.

    2) Cloudkill, Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud are basically worse than the lvl 4 area DOTs. Cloud Kill could have a scaling CON damage. Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud could just have a damage boost to become much stronger than the lvl 4 spells.

    3) Resist Energy is still split in 5 different spells. As a QoL change, they could easily be merged into a single buff applied to all resists (and cost more of course).

    4) Acid DOTs need more damage now after the last pass, especially Dragon Bolt. Also, Horrid Wilting and Disintegrate are way behind. Even doing untyped damage, remember they have their own drawbacks and are WAY behind.

    5) Bull's Strength (and similars) would be more useful if changed to +2 insightful bonus. Insightful is much harder to find at low levels. Also, Mass Bull's Strength is absolutely useless at lvl 6, and could also be changed to +2 insightful bonus or even +2 untyped bonus (to stack with everything else). Or make it become single target with +4 insightful bonus.
    Not disagreeing since pretty much most spells need a rework.
    Charms are pretty much only a few seconds anyway in epic, a rework would be good.
    Energy Resist is not something i think needs to be made more than single since there are other options. Make it scale to what equipment can do or better.
    Enhancement bonus for first 20 levels, then insight or quality for rest.

    Scaling is a huge issue over all. Bull Strength is an example, mass stat used to be mildly useful as it gave 2/3 the max stat bonus.
    They could address this lots of ways eg +6 str for it but made up of 3 enhance, 2 insight and 1 quality so if someone has no item it gives 6 but scales down with the type of item they have, no power creep as max is still max.

    The later energy blocking spells are just worse now. They should give the bonus regenerating every few seconds for the duration with a corresponding % reduction equal to the level it is cast at. 120 pt blocked with 25% or above absorption is useful.

    Banishment- get rid of level restriction, increase cd etc.
    Trap the soul- HD limitation- increase cd
    Mage armour- put it on a different bonus, add prr
    sleep etc same as banishment but no cd increase
    Curse- 20% penalty to hit and some % to prr mrr
    Crushing Dispair 10% pen to hit and mp/rp
    Symbol of pain 20% hit penalty, 20% penalty on stats
    Disintegrate- prr and mrr reduced by 10- adds 10 vulnerable (on failed save)
    Globe of invun moblie- only blocks offensive spells
    Symbol of fear- % equal to caster level of PK
    Tensers get rid of spell slow down
    Symbol of weakness 60% mp/rp 30% pen to hit
    Waves of fatigue 5% pen to hit and -5 to mp, rp, dstrike and shot - slowed
    Waves of exhaustion 15% pen to hit and -15 to mp, rp, dstrike and shot - slowed
    Symbol of Death -40% remaining hp on failed save


    Values may vary greatly.
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  11. #11
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Sunburst is awesome if you have the DC's for it. It's a cheap AOE blind and can instantly kill some undead (like shadows). Sun domain cleric basically gets to spam it as an SLA. Flamestrike is decent if you're a favored soul, but not very good if you're a cleric or druid. I agree; the alignment spells are mostly trash (although it sucks being hit by unholy blight or chaos hammer).

    Holy smite is terrible. It needs to deal at least 3x ~ 4x the damage it does, now.

    Firestorm is decent if you have enough spellpower, but it's so slow and the targeting is glitchy, at best.

    The symbol spells are largely terrible with the minor exception of symbol of death, which is only good for a few negs. I'd love to see an enhancement tree focused around utilizing symbol spells and make them useful.
    Holy Smite is not terrible for the reason you mention for Sunburst. Unlike Sunburst it doesn't insta-kill light fearing undead on failed save, but still provides a blind effect on most creatures based of will instead of reflex that Sunburst has. Holy Smite is one of the best spells you can bring on Divine for Disciples of Rage pack and anywhere else that has Evil Eyes due to being a death spell against those. The eyes tend to have a higher reflex than will save so more likely they will fail save and die. Though the spell should at very least do the same amount of damage to any evil as it does against evil outsiders.

    In my opinion Symbol of Persuasion is better than Symbol of Death. Symbol of Stunning can have its uses too and is annoying for players that get caught by it.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 01-24-2019 at 03:53 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member kelavas's Avatar
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    Default Poor soul... :p

    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    How come nobody mention divine spells...

    Some spell like Order/chaos wrath, flamestrike/ sunburst/ etc, seldom see people using.
    Hast thou forgotten Sunburst is a wizard/sorcerer spell?
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  13. #13
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    One of my pet peeves is Hero's Feast. This spell should be fantastic. But, It's a joke. It doesn't do anything that a rest shrine does anyway. At least make the buffs it's supposed to give actually work (immunity to poison was neutered back in the day so drow could be featured) and remove the need to rest before the feast kicks in. Why not increase the temp hitpoints as well? Morale bonus +1 to hit and will saves? C'mon now. Bump that up and make it comparable to Greater Heroism, or make it stacking at least. Heck, Heroism is better! What about a temp heal over time and spell points over time?

    Anyway, pet peeve voiced. Feel free to ignore and move on.

  14. #14
    Community Member Scortius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post

    Waves of fatigue 5% pen to hit and -5 to mp, rp, dstrike and shot - slowed
    Waves of exhaustion 15% pen to hit and -15 to mp, rp, dstrike and shot - slowed
    Symbol of Death -40% remaining hp on failed save

    Values may vary greatly.
    I like these ones in particular. Back in the pre-MoTU days, casters used Waves of Exhaustion to debuff Harry. This is a 7th lvl spell, it seems legit that it do something to help in a boss fight. The balance between boss immunities and whether spells are usually useless/wasteful isn't in the right place.

    I was playing with an archer last night who was pleased that dispelling shot had done something useful. In one of the endgame dps threads going on right now Nokowi listed seven AC debuffs that players can inflict, and there's no spells on it. There oughta be something in this category, and right now there's not much.


    I'd also pick out Horrid Wilting as well. It's an eight-lvl spell with a very specific application, (plants and water creatures), which it does badly. The base dmg for it is 20d3+60, and vs plants it does 20d4+80, so an extra 30, roughly, vs plants. This should be as effective on plants as wail or implosion are on regular mobs, or at least, have a chance of wilting a twig blight in a slayer area.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by askrj1 View Post
    Assuming you have the SP to spam those spells, that is. And endlessly chugging store pots doesn't really count. Pure spell DPS on a wizard should also not be a replacement for their relative strengths in instakill and CC. The spell damage only really tapers in high epic relative to mob HP anyway, and please do not put reaper into consideration.
    My only concern is the inability to take out red-names in anything approaching reasonable time.

    And yes, it does assume you have the SP. If you could spam them, and the cooldowns were small, then no need to Max/Emp etc, so costs would be relatively low. These days, at least in R1-2, I can not empty my SP bar before my ONE melee companion has killed the redname. Hell, I barely get 1/4th through. Worse still, in that time the total damage I did is literally less than one tenth of his. And he is not in the top tier reaper DPS category.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjw View Post
    My only concern is the inability to take out red-names in anything approaching reasonable time.

    And yes, it does assume you have the SP. If you could spam them, and the cooldowns were small, then no need to Max/Emp etc, so costs would be relatively low. These days, at least in R1-2, I can not empty my SP bar before my ONE melee companion has killed the redname. Hell, I barely get 1/4th through. Worse still, in that time the total damage I did is literally less than one tenth of his. And he is not in the top tier reaper DPS category.
    My disinterest in casters focuses around red names. There are almost no interesting tactics casters get these days. Obviously just instakilling them every time they are encountered is not going happen, but some sort of option other than spamming magic missiles.

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