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  1. #1
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    Default AC for Pure Pally or Fighter tanks is garbage compared to splash builds

    This is broken as hell, pures can get about 350 AC and splashes can get over 500. This is broken, fix it.

    And Nerf monks, for not particular reason that I'm hitting the whiskey early tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  2. #2
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    This is broken as hell, pures can get about 350 AC and splashes can get over 500. This is broken, fix it.

    And Nerf monks, for not particular reason that I'm hitting the whiskey early tonight.
    fake news.
    The 500+ AC is a BS boosted for screen capture utilizing Ravenloft quest alters and other unsustainable unrealistic options and you are not comparing both builds using same buffs.


    A Pure Paladin Tank runs in the 330-350 range
    a good representation of a paladin build..
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-End-Game-Tank

    While splashes do offer better AC and defensive options the gap isn't quite that large.
    its in the 50-75 AC range.

    A good realistic comparison on splash tanks here.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fferent-builds


    Pure class capstones do deserve better options for AC/PRR/MRR and stronger higher Tier enhancement benefits..
    there are a lot of easy pickings of low tier perks while the higher tiers become relatively insignificant.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 01-21-2019 at 07:19 PM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    A Pure Paladin Tank runs in the 330-350 range
    a good representation of a paladin build..
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-End-Game-Tank

    While splashes do offer better AC and defensive options the gap isn't quite that large.
    its in the 50-75 AC range.[/url]


    Pure class capstones do deserve better options for AC/PRR/MRR and stronger higher Tier enhancement benefits..
    there are a lot of easy pickings of low tier perks while the higher tiers become relatively insignificant.
    As the original poster of that paladin build. Here's my thoughts on the issue.
    If we assume pure can hit about 350 and non pure can hit 400 you'd be looking at a 12% bonus to AC on a pure build. I'd say make it exceptional to edge out the EK builds and at least a level 12 ability.
    Fighter tanks need more PRR/MRR in the level 18 and 20 abilities. I'd say these plus heavy armor mastery should offer more defensively than the paladin tree since fighters don't get magic or other abilities. Maybe even offer them the Steadfast Determination from player's handbook for higher will save in the level 12/18/20 tiers.
    Paladin tanks need the 25 PRR/MRR moved out of Tier 5 on the tree and distributed across the level 18 and 20 abilities. It's just too good to pass up. Another option to AC would be to implement the Divine Shield feat which adds charisma bonus to AC instead of a 12% AC bonus.

  4. #4
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    Fighter tanks need more PRR/MRR in the level 18 and 20 abilities. I'd say these plus heavy armor mastery should offer more defensively than the paladin tree since fighters don't get magic or other abilities. Maybe even offer them the Steadfast Determination from player's handbook for higher will save in the level 12/18/20 tiers.
    Yeah, because their Kensei Tree doesn't make up for the fact that they don't have magic. With UMD, ED's, and Gear they can choose to be an acceptable "magic" user in a pinch. Sorry, leave Paladin out of your argument. Paladin has already been dumped on enough thanks to half-baked arguments like this. If you want to boost Fighter, go for it. We can agree to disagree that they need a boost currently (Maybe in the future; I will leave that "door" open).
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  5. #5
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Yeah, because their Kensei Tree doesn't make up for the fact that they don't have magic. With UMD, ED's, and Gear they can choose to be an acceptable "magic" user in a pinch. Sorry, leave Paladin out of your argument. Paladin has already been dumped on enough thanks to half-baked arguments like this. If you want to boost Fighter, go for it. We can agree to disagree that they need a boost currently (Maybe in the future; I will leave that "door" open).
    No sorry the problem is the 5 paladin/1 wizard build. It gives way too much PRR/MRR/AC. By shifting the tier 5 paladin PRR/MRR enhancement to level 18 or 20 you don't have to nerf the tree it's just placing emphasis on pure over multiclass. Also the elephant in the room is actually 1 wizard for the 10% AC from EK and extra feat. Sorry but no amount of creative misdirection changes that fact nor will it ever as long as that condition exists. If you had actually read my suggestion the other part was to give a 12% exceptional AC high up in the paladin and fighter trees to help close the gap a bit.

    This is coming from somebody who has a triple completionist pure paladin tank that has played around with countless gearsets, builds and setups to make paladin work at the top end. I also tested pure fighter for comparison on this same toon. I've looked at this for the past 2 years playing the same toon...It's illogical that a wizard tree has the best AC buff in the game that is better than anything the paladin or fighter tank trees. It's available at level 1 for 4 enhancement points. How is it justifiable that outperforms a triple completionist pure paladin or fighter tank build? 5 paladin/1 wizard exploits low hanging fruit and is the crux of a multitude of tank builds. I'm sorry but that specific enhancement in the EK tree needs to be looked at and rebalanced.
    Last edited by Alcides; 01-21-2019 at 10:12 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    This is broken as hell, pures can get about 350 AC and splashes can get over 500. This is broken, fix it.

    And Nerf monks, for not particular reason that I'm hitting the whiskey early tonight.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    fake news.
    The 500+ AC is a BS boosted for screen capture utilizing Ravenloft quest alters and other unsustainable unrealistic options and you are not comparing both builds using same buffs.


    A Pure Paladin Tank runs in the 330-350 range
    a good representation of a paladin build..
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-End-Game-Tank

    While splashes do offer better AC and defensive options the gap isn't quite that large.
    its in the 50-75 AC range.

    A good realistic comparison on splash tanks here.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fferent-builds


    Pure class capstones do deserve better options for AC/PRR/MRR and stronger higher Tier enhancement benefits..
    there are a lot of easy pickings of low tier perks while the higher tiers become relatively insignificant.
    I hit 400 AC on a pure fighter with guild buffs and tenser and using large shield. I never played a paladin long enough to test highest possible AC for a 20 pally. I think the 500 AC is possible with the 14/5/1 using tower shield. Without using unrealistic options. Then again its only for show because you use a large shield in game, not a tower. I strongly agree with you that cores 5 and 6 and/or top tiers should have some bonus to AC for pally and fighters.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    As the original poster of that paladin build. Here's my thoughts on the issue.
    If we assume pure can hit about 350 and non pure can hit 400 you'd be looking at a 12% bonus to AC on a pure build. I'd say make it exceptional to edge out the EK builds and at least a level 12 ability.
    Fighter tanks need more PRR/MRR in the level 18 and 20 abilities. I'd say these plus heavy armor mastery should offer more defensively than the paladin tree since fighters don't get magic or other abilities. Maybe even offer them the Steadfast Determination from player's handbook for higher will save in the level 12/18/20 tiers.
    Paladin tanks need the 25 PRR/MRR moved out of Tier 5 on the tree and distributed across the level 18 and 20 abilities. It's just too good to pass up. Another option to AC would be to implement the Divine Shield feat which adds charisma bonus to AC instead of a 12% AC bonus.
    This provides the opportune time to let you guys in on a currently circulating report that has been surfacing over the last few weeks. A small Enhancement pass coming to Paladin and possibly Fighter.

  9. #9
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    No sorry the problem is the 5 paladin/1 wizard build. It gives way too much PRR/MRR/AC. By shifting the tier 5 paladin PRR/MRR enhancement to level 18 or 20 you don't have to nerf the tree it's just placing emphasis on pure over multiclass. Also the elephant in the room is actually 1 wizard for the 10% AC from EK and extra feat. Sorry but no amount of creative misdirection changes that fact nor will it ever as long as that condition exists. If you had actually read my suggestion the other part was to give a 12% exceptional AC high up in the paladin and fighter trees to help close the gap a bit.

    This is coming from somebody who has a triple completionist pure paladin tank that has played around with countless gearsets, builds and setups to make paladin work at the top end. I also tested pure fighter for comparison on this same toon. I've looked at this for the past 2 years playing the same toon...It's illogical that a wizard tree has the best AC buff in the game that is better than anything the paladin or fighter tank trees. It's available at level 1 for 4 enhancement points. How is it justifiable that outperforms a triple completionist pure paladin or fighter tank build? 5 paladin/1 wizard exploits low hanging fruit and is the crux of a multitude of tank builds. I'm sorry but that specific enhancement in the EK tree needs to be looked at and rebalanced.
    We will just have to agree to disagree about the need for such measures.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  10. #10
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    The tank trees are long overdue for a pass regardless, even if they're useful still for tanks and especially stacking effects across classes. More (defensive) power in the capstones and 18core would be nice. I'd say both capstones should get a 5-10% exceptional AC to short out the Wiz1 meta, and probably some sort of HP bonus to compensate for EDF not being meaningful at all to tanks. Then maybe tag another 5-10 sheltering to core18. Fighter (pure, mostly) could also use some saves bonuses.

    One thing I'd like to see given to tanks is also the ability to aggro targets that are usually immune to intimidate. There is currently no way for a tank to maintain aggro on some relatively hard hitting constructs or otherwise that cannot be turned with intimidate, where a tank could be effective but are unable to hold onto the targets. It kind of further breaks the trinity thing when your tank only situationally works even after all the work put in to build them. I should not need to force a fighter or paladin tank with limited SP and meta options to need to take hellball and ruin(s) to pull non-intim mobs, and it's not like you can realistically hold them in an actual beatdown.
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
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  11. #11
    Community Member lillentle's Avatar
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    I don't agree that a pure build should be the best build, but the paladin sacred defender tree is bogus!!

    I just got the Scion of Mechanus on my bladeforged paly, I wanted to free up some action points to put into sacred defender tree. The feat said it would be the same as Communion of Scribing enchantment. It lied, communion of scribing is slightly better(someone tell Lyn). But I was willing to give up a little bit of healing for +20% health and +6 STR. Straight away I noticed I wasn't getting any HP boost turning sacred defence stance on, I ask in advice and someone told me it doesn't stack with Epic Defensive Fighting(????? !?? !!! ***), but they recommended I get the +6 con as it's a decent boost to HP anyway, it wasn't much but I was ok with it. I also had 1 action point spare to go with the +10% action booost run speed! WOOT.

    Later on I tried to use my primal scream, only to find it didn't work. I was mad, I blamed DDO for being buggy, looked through everything and found out that you can't use it with sacred defender stance. So now I'm spending 23 action points for +1 con and +1 str, and I think +15 PRR. BOGUS!
    Lillentle, the smaller Lentle

  12. #12
    Community Member Gilga1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    fake news.
    The 500+ AC is a BS boosted for screen capture utilizing Ravenloft quest alters and other unsustainable unrealistic options and you are not comparing both builds using same buffs.
    Well... no. A well built tank with the right split for maxing AC (i.e. dwarf fighter/pally/wiz) can easily exceed 500 AC.
    And the defense altar gives PRR, MRR and HP only, not AC...

    The op is right: AC for Pure Pally or Fighter tanks is garbage compared to splash builds.
    Actually pure pally of fighter can't even tank the most difficult content.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lillentle View Post
    I don't agree that a pure build should be the best build, but the paladin sacred defender tree is bogus!!

    I just got the Scion of Mechanus on my bladeforged paly, I wanted to free up some action points to put into sacred defender tree. The feat said it would be the same as Communion of Scribing enchantment. It lied, communion of scribing is slightly better(someone tell Lyn). But I was willing to give up a little bit of healing for +20% health and +6 STR. Straight away I noticed I wasn't getting any HP boost turning sacred defence stance on, I ask in advice and someone told me it doesn't stack with Epic Defensive Fighting(????? !?? !!! ***), but they recommended I get the +6 con as it's a decent boost to HP anyway, it wasn't much but I was ok with it. I also had 1 action point spare to go with the +10% action booost run speed! WOOT.

    Later on I tried to use my primal scream, only to find it didn't work. I was mad, I blamed DDO for being buggy, looked through everything and found out that you can't use it with sacred defender stance. So now I'm spending 23 action points for +1 con and +1 str, and I think +15 PRR. BOGUS!
    Scion of Mechanus only takes 50% spell power iirc or some similar issue, which I have no idea why it does because mechanically (no pun intended) it's an exact copy of Communion of Scribing. I have no idea why this has not been recognized and fixed, I do remember sending in a report, but my memory might be failing so feel free to bug report it again. To be fair, if you can live with the racial grind it is enough to fill up Communion.

    HP from greater stance was re-typed to competence to avoid stacking with EDF upon implementation (was sacred, fighter SD is also competence so was probably decision to keep them par. Aasimar protector bond on the other hand was specified to be sacred in the same update.). If you do not have at least 3 combat style feats enhancement 20% is still higher, and it saves you 3 feat slots for other purposes such as spending on quicken and shield masteries.

    Primal scream is considered a rage effect and will not work with defender stances.

    While I will agree the defender tree is lacklustre and needs work, this case just reflects poor research before the go ahead with the build.
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
    Thelanis - Striving to be your Swiss Army Knife for DPS, traps and tanking
    Eushully/Centered LS Tempest | Nantekottai/Arti tank | Ponoka - Inquis

  14. #14
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    On a semirelated note, that's why as pen and paper DM I never allow my players to multiclass. I don't care with the arguments. This amount of freedom will always lead to imbalance.

    One level of Wiz just to get +10% AC is exploit at its finest.
    Last edited by lppmor; 01-22-2019 at 05:33 AM.

  15. #15
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    First off I think it's extremely important to not break any of the current builds. Tanks require a ton of investment. Absolutely agree the lvl 12/18/20 cores in both defender trees need to be updated. There's a few other things that need some work though.


    • Druid bear form should be RACIAL bonus to HP. There's no real reason bear AC bonus is typed the same as Mage Armor either. Bear would still be a B-tier tank (no knight of shadows set without losing all dodge) but at least help with viability.
    • Form feat restrictions need to be removed. Meta tanks are only meta because of Aasimar. Opening this up to PM/Warlock/Elemental/Animal forms is not game breaking in the slightest and helps put things on par with constructs still being able to use it.
    • EK could really use a high-tier shield update. The enhancement that grants temp HP should have been heavily upgraded but got left behind for whatever reason. It's rather useless on a build that's already useless if using a shield.


    Now, some of the more astute players/devs will say "oh no, Aasimar wolves would be trouble", and I'd sort of agree. But only because of the heal amp that they can already get. The Horc meta is and would continue to be better DPS but at least this would open up the standard D&D tradeoff scenario - want much better DPS or survivability?

  16. #16
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    Well... no. A well built tank with the right split for maxing AC (i.e. dwarf fighter/pally/wiz) can easily exceed 500 AC.
    And the defense altar gives PRR, MRR and HP only, not AC...

    The op is right: AC for Pure Pally or Fighter tanks is garbage compared to splash builds.
    Actually pure pally of fighter can't even tank the most difficult content.
    Id like to see and test that F/P/W build.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    On a semirelated note, that's why as pen and paper DM I never allow my players to multiclass. I don't care with the arguments. This amount of freedom will always lead to imbalance.

    One level of Wiz just to get +10% AC is exploit at its finest.
    Those kinds of things dont exist in P&P without trade offs.

    As a player you can make a character "unhittable" AC wise and as a DM I wont give you the stuff to cover up all your weaknesses. The player is a questionable move and a failed save away from just as much danger as any other player character.

    Video games like this one simply offer too many ways to cover up the "min" when min maxing. On paper every bartender doesnt sell immunity to death and crowd control items, heh.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Id like to see and test that F/P/W build.
    Here you go have at it.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...k-Build-Thread

  19. #19
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    The reason why pure paladin and pure fighter are not as good tanks as multiclass is for the same reason that pure clerics/wizards/paladins/fighters and to an extent rogues were not as good dps as multiclassed in ages past – because the class only has 1 enhancement tree that accomplishes the goal (be it tanking or dps) well, and that you can’t effectively spend 80 AP in a single tree towards that goal.

    However, when you spend 41-50 AP in on tree efficiently; you still have 30-39 AP to spend on different trees, and can pick up other bennies. For pure fighters/pali’s this was often picking up some stuff from the sacred defender tree and getting a lot of defense along with their damage.

    This problem is similar with current pure build tanks; classes really don’t have 2 “tank” enhancement trees, so pure builds run out of tanky things to effectively spend their AP on after 41-50 points. If a class had two tanking trees; say if a pure fighter were allowed to put points in sacred defender and stalwart defender; a pure build would likely be the best tank build there is. Similar to how rogue/assassin became top tier DPS when vistanii was added.

    For now; the best 0 dps tanks are the ones that can spend 80 AP well; and are thus multiclass. Pure builds get different advantages through spending the other 30+ AP they have; which often includes having much better damage then a multiclass build; and can also include having an extra stun or better/stronger healing for some classes. It also typically includes being much easier to level then a multiclass build; since an easy enhancement respec is all that's needed to swith to/from a good dps build.
    Selvera: Half elf Bard 14/Barb 2/Fighter 2; Just having a bit of swash fun with a heroic life.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by askrj1 View Post
    HP from greater stance was re-typed to competence to avoid stacking with EDF upon implementation (was sacred, fighter SD is also competence so was probably decision to keep them par. Aasimar protector bond on the other hand was specified to be sacred in the same update.). If you do not have at least 3 combat style feats enhancement 20% is still higher, and it saves you 3 feat slots for other purposes such as spending on quicken and shield masteries.

    Primal scream is considered a rage effect and will not work with defender stances.

    While I will agree the defender tree is lackluster and needs work, this case just reflects poor research before the go ahead with the build.
    An interesting to note is that Renegade Mastermaker's T5 Paragon Body is specified as a 20% Racial bonus, and thus should fully stack with Aasimar's 10% Protector Bond, Falconry's 5% Conditioning, and up to 25% of Epic Defensive Fighting's Competence bonus. (60% bonus AFAIK).

    And all you need is an Aasimar build with 5+ levels in Artificer, 34 AP into RMM (Automatic Forcefields is very nice as well), 16 AP into Aasimar, and 13 AP into Falconry. Then you can still do 14 Fighter and 1 Wizard/Sorc for the Heavy Armor feats, Defender Stance (with +6 Con), and +10% AC (13/4 AP into StD/EK = no RAP required).

    As a Fighter you'll even have plenty of feats to spare a few for Combat Style feats while still picking up shield stuff etc. And you'll have Aasimar's Lay on Hands for burst healing (although your raid healers probably won't like the -25% Healamp you'll get plenty from your trees).
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

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