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  1. #101
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevth View Post
    I'm a little confused by some of the responses here.
    Me too! Unsure why people cheerlead into making these weapons equally boring.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    For the battle axe when the player has both knight's training and improved crit we will give an additional bonus to equalize it. We do something similar with swashbuckler, I'll update the post.

    We're not inclined to do that with the blunts because of dreadnought.

    -T
    Doesn't this change further erode the desirability or comparative power of swashbuckler.

    If you consider the 'melee' classes, don't all of them (cept druid) benefit from this other than swashbuckler?

    This would be fine if swashbuckler wasn't already limping, struggling to keep up with the big boys a little. Bear in mind, when the class passes started, swashbuckler was the level of power you (Turbine at the time) stated you wanted to balance to.

    'we do something similar with swashbuckler' - so something juicy for them, now becomes available to all.
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  3. #103

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    With more thought I am still worried about it being to good, but I do really like it. I am going to offer the suggestion of adding heavy picks and limiting the feat to the main hand weapon only. At least at first to see how things work out. This combo of changes would make the difference between the Knight's Training and Khopesh feat a bit more interesting. You still leave Khopesh a purpose and give a boost to most other large melee weapon users.

    For STR based TWF-ers Khopesh might still be the best, but longswords would make up half the current difference (or more if you could not pick up all the TWF feats) while also gaining in situations where you might want to switch out to warhammer or heavy pick weapons because of slashing DR.

    Dual deity weapon wielding fvs and TWF longsword monks gains with the main hand weapon while still being able to use all of their abilities, and if they still need more both could probably be boosted via the enhancement trees.

    Single weapon fighters and sword & board types gain full effect, but are the more likely to be feat starved in comparison making taking either feat a harder choice.

    I think it makes the feat more interesting and leaves more room for weapon development in the future, while leaving room to buff it in the future if it is decided it is too weak (is it possible to have + 1.5 crit multipliers?) rather then nerfs to it or further powercreeping Khopesh back into relevancy if it is too strong.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    To those complaining about longswords having better named items then khopeshes... really? Really?
    Well, I guess that's fair.... to you and many others level 30 is all that matters and there you have an uber-powerful khopesh and no longsword of note.

    To me and many others everything except level 30 (and especially level 30 raid weapons) are what matters, and there are no named khopeshes of note and lots of longswords (...a handful of which are "of note").

    Different sides of the game.

    The way I see it: Raw power doesn't mean anything other than going up a skull difficulty such that it's at a fun challenge level again where the skull penalties roughly cancel out power creep. This feat is just raw power at the cost of a mandatory feat, so it can only make a character less interesting as whatever other feat was more flavourful rather than raw power is inevitably the one that gets left out. I won't start protesting on the bridge against this feat (I'd rather think of a battleaxe build), I just think that adding raw power for no particular purpose seems like a weak design choice.
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  5. #105
    Community Member wizdarrick's Avatar
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    Default Ah nice that will be good

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    Hey guys, just wanted to give you a quick heads up on a new martial feat that we’re introducing in the upcoming anniversary patch. It’s called…

    …………

    Knight’s Training:

    Description: You have undergone rigorous military training with the traditional weapons of war. These weapons receive one of the following morale bonuses in your hands.

    • Longsword critical multiplier is increased by 1
    • Battle Axes critical threat range is increased by 1. Increased by 2 if you have slashing improved critical
    • Heavy Maces, Morning Stars & War Hammers critical threat range is increased by 1

    Requires: +4 BAB
    Martial Feat (Fighter bonus feats can be used to take this)

    ……………

    A quick faq on this new feat:

    1. Why make this feat? We want players to have more options for their melee DPS builds, so we are equalizing some weapons to be at least closer, if not equal to, the power of the Khopesh. Due to the way crit bonuses become rather great by epic levels, the Khopesh’s superior crit numbers can make it mathematically the only one-handed choice for many builds, and we prefer a more diverse weapon choice for players seeking top DPS

    2. What about OTHER weapons? Depending on how this feat goes we will likely introduce other feats or enhancements that handle other sets of weapons. Certain weapons just might not have the itemization pool to really be viable yet, so some weapons will come slower than others.

    3. Morale Bonus? Will that stack? Morale bonus has never been used with crit threat or mod before, so it will stack with everything currently in the game. This is more a consideration for effects down the road.

    4. Hey Maces/Hammers/etc aren’t equal (unless I go Aasimar Maces) Because bludgeon DR is probably the most common DR due to skeletons we’ve kept maces a little lower for now.

    -Torc
    I have to say it is good to see more dps for mele ranged and even magic like the sorcerer and warlock. Because its pretty sad when you have a full party or even raid which is full dps, and yet with one single magic class who only learns instant death spells like finger of death and what not. That person gets 90% of the kills before the monsters even reach the team which basically takes away the challenge and teamwork aspect which is the purpose of full groups is to work as a team. In a lot of ways instant death really takes away a lot of the fun because its pretty much a cheating/cheap method which to many use since it to easy.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizdarrick View Post
    I have to say it is good to see more dps for mele ranged and even magic like the sorcerer and warlock. Because its pretty sad when you have a full party or even raid which is full dps, and yet with one single magic class who only learns instant death spells like finger of death and what not. That person gets 90% of the kills before the monsters even reach the team which basically takes away the challenge and teamwork aspect which is the purpose of full groups is to work as a team. In a lot of ways instant death really takes away a lot of the fun because its pretty much a cheating/cheap method which to many use since it to easy.
    I like to let necro casters get all those kills. I dont usually look at or care about kill counts in parties though. Staying alive and chipping in is so much more stress free

  7. #107
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    I see it as a battle- the LoTR scenario looks great in film with the heroes surrounded but I'd prefer the standard of heavy artillery (CC spells) precision ranged shots (Ranged and instakills) before melees get tangled up in a fracas. The end (loot and xp) is the goal, isn't it? The mage gets squished by the trash that gets through without melee drawing their (the trash's) attention. It's teamwork. But then I also avoid PUGs with non-guild because they aren't so much a team as a mob and seem to fail half the time.

    Anything that makes the overall success more certain is great in my eyes.

    I fail to see how this homogenizes all weapons; it's a alternative feat that addresses "knightly" weapons in the same manner that exotic proficiency addresses exotic melee weapons. Bastard sword, Khopesh, Dwarben axe, and soon this group. Just because druids, Monks and swashbucklers don't get their shinies addressed by this doesn't mean they won't get a feat all to themselves down the road. At the cost of a feat, this seems reasonable; it opens new possibilities for builds that brings them up a little toward a bar that's already set. They aren't nerfing khopshes.

    Short-sword wielding Banks (Bard Monks) may get their day in the sun soon, too. (Barinjas?)

    I don't see how this takes anything away from the top DPS toons. Besides... this didn't give longswords glancing blows so the bastards, at least, still have that edge (no pun intended).

    Favored Weapons may actually be worth swinging.

    Now for a shameless plug: Warhammers, or at least mauls, should have a chance at glancing blows or their own impact based surprise. A fifteen pound chunk of enchanted matter, on a three-five foot length of shaft, swung by a character who's lift capacity could include a baby elephant and still stay at "light" encumbrance should not be stopped by the first kobold skull it meets.
    Last edited by Jerevth; 01-19-2019 at 07:49 AM. Reason: clarification, punctuation and a pun about druit weapons pondered then rejected.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevth View Post
    I fail to see how this homogenizes all weapons; it's a alternative feat that addresses "knightly" weapons in the same manner that exotic proficiency addresses exotic melee weapons. Bastard sword, Khopesh, Dwarben axe, and soon this group. Just because druids, Monks and swashbucklers don't get their shinies addressed by this doesn't mean they won't get a feat all to themselves down the road. At the cost of a feat, this seems reasonable; it opens new possibilities for builds that brings them up a little toward a bar that's already set. They aren't nerfing khopshes.

    Short-sword wielding Banks (Bard Monks) may get their day in the sun soon, too. (Barinjas?)

    I don't see how this takes anything away from the top DPS toons. Besides... this didn't give longswords glancing blows so the bastards, at least, still have that edge (no pun intended).

    Favored Weapons may actually be worth swinging.

    Now for a shameless plug: Warhammers, or at least mauls, should have a chance at glancing blows or their own impact based surprise. A fifteen pound chunk of enchanted matter, on a three-five foot length of shaft, swung by a character who's lift capacity could include a baby elephant and still stay at "light" encumbrance should not be stopped by the first kobold skull it meets.
    It homogenizes weapons by giving them closer and closer to all having the same damage/crit profiles. If the major difference between weapons becomes their appearance and the DR they break, we lose a lot of variety. Sure, this gives min-maxers more options because more weapons can compete on sheer DPS numbers, but that's not what makes D&D (nor DDO imo) special. Flexibility, customizability, and flavor are what they ought to be promoting. Rather than simply making all weapons closer to equal (if you take the right combination of feats and enhancements), why not make them all more different, instead? Straight DPS is boring. Everyone can do the math and come up with the same exact conclusions, that x build with y weapon is the best for DPS. Throw some curves, instead. If every weapon boosts something slightly different (like your suggestion for Warhammers), then every weapon can/will have its proponents because it suits their style or vision, while still contributing effectively to DPS.

    I made a few off-the cuff suggestions on about the second page of this thread that I won't repeat here, but it seems to me that some thought into the nature of each weapon and its role in combat, combined with effects possible in DDO, could lead to some really interesting design choices to differentiate weapons, and thereby much more room for build and weapon choices. And that's what I like about DDO: choices. Relevant, usable, yet interesting, choices.
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  9. #109
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    Perhaps this can be an opportunity to move Khopesh back toward its original PnP intent?

    Remove the expanded crit multiplier from khopeshes,
    change Knight's Training provides expanded crit multiplier to both longswords and Khopeshes,
    change Exotic proficiency : Khopesh to provide +4 DC to trip if you have the proficiency feat.

  10. #110
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zistra View Post
    It homogenizes weapons by giving them closer and closer to all having the same damage/crit profiles. If the major difference between weapons becomes their appearance and the DR they break, we lose a lot of variety. Sure, this gives min-maxers more options because more weapons can compete on sheer DPS numbers, but that's not what makes D&D (nor DDO imo) special. Flexibility, customizability, and flavor are what they ought to be promoting. Rather than simply making all weapons closer to equal (if you take the right combination of feats and enhancements), why not make them all more different, instead? Straight DPS is boring. Everyone can do the math and come up with the same exact conclusions, that x build with y weapon is the best for DPS. Throw some curves, instead. If every weapon boosts something slightly different (like your suggestion for Warhammers), then every weapon can/will have its proponents because it suits their style or vision, while still contributing effectively to DPS.

    I made a few off-the cuff suggestions on about the second page of this thread that I won't repeat here, but it seems to me that some thought into the nature of each weapon and its role in combat, combined with effects possible in DDO, could lead to some really interesting design choices to differentiate weapons, and thereby much more room for build and weapon choices. And that's what I like about DDO: choices. Relevant, usable, yet interesting, choices.
    I disagree about your statement WRT making all weapons alike- it costs a feat, and demonstrates a plausible background trait (Knight's Training) to justify greater capability with a weapon. Just as someone who selects improved Crit has a greater capability with that weapon set (Ranged, slashing, etc). Consider the hobbiest vs the teacher vs. master of their trade. The professional chef can cut more finely than the house-wife, with the same tool. There is no tweak being made to the kitchen knife in either case. A master (Michelin) chef can do even more. This feat (knight's training) is a feat, selected over others- in the same manner as Improved Crit and weapon finesse. The same way a splash is considered with gain vs sacrifice, or a spell is chosen. It's an added variable. (A darn good one) that many will appreciate having available because they aren't button-holed into a narrow weapon range.

    I'm glad you felt you went into exhaustive detail detailing an alternative system for development. I feel the same way about some policy changes and would love to be hired as a consultant for SSGs to share my vast knowledge in the face of reality. (Who wouldn't?) None-the-less, someone who elects to train a feat that focuses on a group of weapons in lieu of other weapon feats is making the decision in a manner that is plausible. You lose nothing just because because someone else is able to choose a feat that makes their weapon choice more viable. If it steals the enjoyment of the game because someone else is having fun with their with a longsword instead of a khopesh... well that's your ego. I'd like to see more players in the game and variety is the better way to draw them in than more named khopeshes.

    It increases general enjoyment of the game for others. Sorry, this isn't a loss for you, it's a gain for those who want to explore different weapon types.

    Heck, I'll probably explore FvS or Warpriest again when this goes live just because the Favored weapons might actually live up to the role of "Favored".

    Either way, it doesn't matter; the decision was made, the feat is coming and it involves no nerf to our beloved builds so we can enjoy a bit of color with weapons that don't get the love or complain into our pillows.

    Lastly; Wave of Despair ftw.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    Hey guys, just wanted to give you a quick heads up on a new martial feat that we’re introducing in the upcoming anniversary patch. It’s called…

    …………

    Knight’s Training:

    Description: You have undergone rigorous military training with the traditional weapons of war. These weapons receive one of the following morale bonuses in your hands.

    • Longsword critical multiplier is increased by 1
    • Battle Axes critical threat range is increased by 1. Increased by 2 if you have slashing improved critical
    • Heavy Maces, Morning Stars & War Hammers critical threat range is increased by 1

    Requires: +4 BAB
    Martial Feat (Fighter bonus feats can be used to take this)

    ……………

    A quick faq on this new feat:

    1. Why make this feat? We want players to have more options for their melee DPS builds, so we are equalizing some weapons to be at least closer, if not equal to, the power of the Khopesh. Due to the way crit bonuses become rather great by epic levels, the Khopesh’s superior crit numbers can make it mathematically the only one-handed choice for many builds, and we prefer a more diverse weapon choice for players seeking top DPS

    2. What about OTHER weapons? Depending on how this feat goes we will likely introduce other feats or enhancements that handle other sets of weapons. Certain weapons just might not have the itemization pool to really be viable yet, so some weapons will come slower than others.

    3. Morale Bonus? Will that stack? Morale bonus has never been used with crit threat or mod before, so it will stack with everything currently in the game. This is more a consideration for effects down the road.

    4. Hey Maces/Hammers/etc aren’t equal (unless I go Aasimar Maces) Because bludgeon DR is probably the most common DR due to skeletons we’ve kept maces a little lower for now.

    -Torc
    Knight’s Training seems like the wrong name for it knights wear heavy armor and its not a prerequisite for the feat change the name to weapons training or something that makes sense.

  12. #112
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizdarrick View Post
    I have to say it is good to see more dps for mele ranged and even magic like the sorcerer and warlock. Because its pretty sad when you have a full party or even raid which is full dps, and yet with one single magic class who only learns instant death spells like finger of death and what not. That person gets 90% of the kills before the monsters even reach the team which basically takes away the challenge and teamwork aspect which is the purpose of full groups is to work as a team. In a lot of ways instant death really takes away a lot of the fun because its pretty much a cheating/cheap method which to many use since it to easy.
    The problem ddo melee players constantly have run into, it's the devs attempt to balance the difficulty to the many playstyles they introduced.

    When the cap was 20, getting from 18 to cap was annoying because it meant running poorly balanced content like IQ or Reavers reach where trash mobs hit so hard, it required constant healing.
    So players switched to casters and ranged dps to avoid the unbalanced incoming damage. Healers disappeared and only a handful of players had healers in their roster to help guild raid runs.
    Self healing became mandatory.

    When the cap was raised to 25 and later 28 things hit so hard, it was nigh impossible to run a (non cheating) melee without a dedicated nanny bot and even then, having 95% of your hp removed in 2 hits (epic gh tor?) without making a dent in mobs is extremely frustrating. People adapted and used ranged dps and casters to farm past lives

    Luckily armor up happened to bring back melees (though loads of casters complained it made things to easy and melees were stealing their precious kills)

    The game progressed and the cap was raised to 30, eventually, after lots of complaints from people who didn't get the concept that they reached a cap and should play an alt instead of their triple everything completionist (often cheat build) toon, the devs created champions and later reaper mode with the intention to challenge players. The same way EA can't help themselves introducing p2w micro transactions, ssg "gave" us reaper enh trees, in the hope we would all jump on the thread wheel like confused hamsters, fueled by store bought exp pots.
    So again, people tr-ed into ranged dps and casters again.

    And this is the crux of the problem, few of the devs even play real melees on a high level, let alone reaper raids.
    Making things harder in the minds of lazy devs means raising numbers, giving enemies higher ac, hp, saves, sr, melee dps, etc, to the point a real melee has no chance to kill 1 mob using dps before it kills him.
    But it made no difference to instakil casters and ranged dps, they could keep their safe distance from the biggest thread, enemy melee dps , they were given workable dc's and ranged dps, not so much for dps melees. Taking out a mob with dps before it kills you is not as easy as it is for other play-styles (not without loads of heals)
    another good example is the poor design of the reaper trees, casters regain enough from their trees to keep zerging quests on r8 with impunity, no such luck for dps melees, their tree doesn't compensate for the reaper debuff the same way it does for casters.

    another byproduct is the gap between newer players (with some or no past lives) and those triple completionist toons became even wider and getting to run with vets wich informed them about the workings of the game is now gone.
    those newbies are thrown in the deep end, where they eventually end up in quest that are designed for players with a lot of past lives or forced to runnormal, taking ages to reach cap and more likely to give up.
    Thus they are less likely to buy store goods or invest in vip.
    Not only that, we have heroic, racial, epic and iconic tr systems and the reaper enh trees. How likely are vets to build another end game toon? How likely are they spend money on store bought bank&inventory space, bags, tomes, exp pots, exp tomes, etc on another endgame toon?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevth View Post
    I disagree about your statement WRT making all weapons alike- it costs a feat, and demonstrates a plausible background trait (Knight's Training) to justify greater capability with a weapon. Just as someone who selects improved Crit has a greater capability with that weapon set (Ranged, slashing, etc). Consider the hobbiest vs the teacher vs. master of their trade. The professional chef can cut more finely than the house-wife, with the same tool. There is no tweak being made to the kitchen knife in either case. A master (Michelin) chef can do even more. This feat (knight's training) is a feat, selected over others- in the same manner as Improved Crit and weapon finesse. The same way a splash is considered with gain vs sacrifice, or a spell is chosen. It's an added variable. (A darn good one) that many will appreciate having available because they aren't button-holed into a narrow weapon range.
    None of what you're saying contradicts what I said. Take the feat, whether it's Exotic Proficiency: Khopesh or Knight's Training, and you get pretty much the same thing in the end: a primary weapon with pretty similar capabilities and little or nothing to differentiate it from taking the other feat (except what named versions exist, appearance, and whether or not your favorite Enhancements work with it). The idea that taking the feat adds capabilities with certain weapons doesn't bother me. It's both well-established and reasonable. It's the fact that once you do so, you essentially have the same weapon: equalized DPS being somehow considered a benefit. I personally would rather not equalize the DPS of all weapons (with or without feat expenditure). I'd prefer meaningful variety. I'd prefer that there were reasons other than pure DPS on which to decide. And even if DPS is essentially equal, I'd prefer that the flavor of the individual weapons weren't completely lost in the process. For example, a rapier could provide a higher attack speed at a lower per-hit damage and pierce heavy armor better than a longsword, which would swing slower, hit harder, and be better vs lighter armor, for a fairly random example. Not sure how much of it could be done, but it's a direction I'd prefer.

    <Edit> Note that I don't stand by the logic on my example. I just like the idea of the differentiation. </Edit>
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  14. #114
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zistra View Post
    Snip </Edit>
    Thank you. I understand your perspective a bit better now. The concern I would have is if certain weapons are more effective against certain foes (Beyond what we have already with alignment/metal/etc damage bypass) we'll need bigger golf bags for all the different types. Longswords were the happy medium- effective against armor (Bash it until the insides are outside) and leather alike. You had Slash, stab or pommel strike. DDO limits that significantly by necessity. (Maybe a toggle to use pommel only for those nuisance skelies?)

    Since it's down to a philosophical discussion- it's happening anyway- I'll embrace it positively, find justification mentally, and roll with it. If I can accept that a moderately strong character is only medium encumberance with 2 tons of gear I can accept almost anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zistra View Post

    Some possibilities off the top of my head:

    Maces: A slight chance to daze an enemy for a second or two.
    Morningstars: Do both blunt and piercing damage.
    Rapiers: Inherent armor-piercing or slight attack speed boost.
    Warhammers: Add a small (possibly increasing with levels or [W]?) bonus to Stun
    Staff: Add a small (possibly increasing with levels or [W]?) bonus to Trip
    Maul: Add a small (possibly increasing with levels or [W]?) bonus to Sunder

    and/or make some types of weapons more effective vs Medium & Heavy Armor, while others work better vs Light Armor & Robes.

    This sort of thing would make it well-nigh impossible to compare weapons and have the potential to spawn hundreds of flavor builds.
    I like the sound of this too. specialized effects for specific items sounds realistic

  16. #116
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    Could you allow this feat to also add glancing blows for long swords and battle axes while a shield is equipped? There are very few Dwaven axes and Bastard swords available in the raid tier.
    This would be good, allow melee and tanks to use weapons aligned with their class/race/faith instead of pigeon-holing 2 optimal weapon options



    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    Also please consider adding this feat in addition to Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery and Legendary Shield Mastery Improved Shield Bash and Shield Deflection to count towards the hit point bonus of Epic Defensive fighting.
    This was not meant to help tanks, so unfortunately this goes against the goal of what they were trying to help.. the melees.
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  17. #117

    Thumbs up Love this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    YAY!

    Long Swords serve as a founding stone of many Fantasy, Historic, and Legendary traditions. It is wonderful to see them restored to importance in Dungeons & Dragons.

    Please consider finding a place for the combination of Rapier and Main-gauche. In History and an entire sub-genre of Romance writing, those two weapons occupy a very important place. To this very day, some fencing instructors still teach the style, unlike many of the utterly preposterous combinations allowed in DDO. If you could nudge the art department to add a proper Flamberge Raiper that would also be wonderful. Ladies need more proper weapons!
    I love this idea,

  18. #118
    Community Member Windaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    • Longsword critical multiplier is increased by 1
    • Battle Axes critical threat range is increased by 1. Increased by 2 if you have slashing improved critical
    • Heavy Maces, Morning Stars & War Hammers critical threat range is increased by 1

    Requires: +4 BAB
    Martial Feat (Fighter bonus feats can be used to take this)

    2. What about OTHER weapons? Depending on how this feat goes we will likely introduce other feats or enhancements that handle other sets of weapons. Certain weapons just might not have the itemization pool to really be viable yet, so some weapons will come slower than others.

    -Torc
    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    For the battle axe when the player has both knight's training and improved crit we will give an additional bonus to equalize it. We do something similar with swashbuckler, I'll update the post.

    We're not inclined to do that with the blunts because of dreadnought.

    -T
    Just a note that someone may have already commented on, but Swashbucklers cannot use the mentioned weapons and be considered swashbuckling. Only weapons that can be affected by the Weapons Finesse feat can be used to swash. Would there be a similar feat coming out that would affect those weapon types?
    Leader of the Sacred Order of the Shaolin Temple on Kyber

    Guild Leader Toon - Aerriss (Bard Swashbuckler)
    Alts (that I use frequently) - Hartanna (Shintao Monk), Issill (Zen Bow-Master), Taeri (Completionist in the making), Itarrilde (Henshin Monk)


  19. #119
    2016 DDO Players Council
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    karatemack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    Hey guys, just wanted to give you a quick heads up on a new martial feat that we’re introducing in the upcoming anniversary patch. It’s called…

    …………

    Knight’s Training:

    Description: You have undergone rigorous military training with the traditional weapons of war. These weapons receive one of the following morale bonuses in your hands.

    • Longsword critical multiplier is increased by 1
    • Battle Axes critical threat range is increased by 1. Increased by 2 if you have slashing improved critical
    • Heavy Maces, Morning Stars & War Hammers critical threat range is increased by 1

    Requires: +4 BAB
    Martial Feat (Fighter bonus feats can be used to take this)

    ……………

    A quick faq on this new feat:

    1. Why make this feat? We want players to have more options for their melee DPS builds, so we are equalizing some weapons to be at least closer, if not equal to, the power of the Khopesh. Due to the way crit bonuses become rather great by epic levels, the Khopesh’s superior crit numbers can make it mathematically the only one-handed choice for many builds, and we prefer a more diverse weapon choice for players seeking top DPS

    2. What about OTHER weapons? Depending on how this feat goes we will likely introduce other feats or enhancements that handle other sets of weapons. Certain weapons just might not have the itemization pool to really be viable yet, so some weapons will come slower than others.

    3. Morale Bonus? Will that stack? Morale bonus has never been used with crit threat or mod before, so it will stack with everything currently in the game. This is more a consideration for effects down the road.

    4. Hey Maces/Hammers/etc aren’t equal (unless I go Aasimar Maces) Because bludgeon DR is probably the most common DR due to skeletons we’ve kept maces a little lower for now.

    -Torc
    This is not the best way to accomplish the stated goals. Exotic Weapon Mastery in Kensei is an example of one place you could fit in additional ranks and have this cost AP instead. There are places in War Priest/War Soul and other combat specialty trees where you could create the same homogenization across the various weapon types at the expense of AP rather than a feat.

    Alternatively, you could introduce additional universal trees which specifically address the weapons you feel could use some love. VKF added a lot of build diversity in the right places.
    Griglok (main)- Cleric (TRing), Duelcore- Wiz 18/FvS 2, Embezzler- Rogue, Fiergen- Ftr 8/Rgr 6/Mnk 6, Greyhead- monk, Havegun- Ftr 2/Pal 18, Jayberwocky- Ftr 8/Mnk 12, Laciolux- Clr 16/FvS 4, Prototech- Artificer, Rendorc- Barbarian, Seasharp- Bard
    Leader- The Casual Obsession ___Khyber___

  20. #120
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zistra View Post
    So in essence we will have weapons for which you have to take a feat to get proficiency, and other weapons for which you have to take a feat to maximize their potential. Seems balanced, I guess. Essentially you then wind up picking your weapon and feat more by flavor than anything else.
    What this will accomplish is to open up a few of the non-khopesh weapons which already have an enhanced threat or multiplier to see greater use.

    Soulrazor, Felblade, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreppo View Post
    There's an opportunity cost of taking a feat which makes this balanced. Well done.
    It is unbalanced, because you can't just look at the existing base weapon profiles and declare it balanced. You have to consider the existing itemization, and at that point the lack of khopesh with enhanced threat/critical range and the shortage of khopesh in general puts the 'balance' purely and by a very large margin in favor of Knight's Training and using any of the very large number of already enhanced threat/damage range weapons which already exist.

    Khopesh: 50
    Longsword: 55
    Battleaxe: 32
    Heavy Maces, Morning Stars & War Hammers: 46, 31, 37 = 114

    Total distribution: 50 Khopesh Proficiency feat, 210 Knight's Training feat

    Does more than a 4:1 advantage to Knight's Training look balanced to anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    If you think some weapon types being uncompetitive at endgame is a problem, why not do a broader review? This just seems like another quick and dirty band-aid fix that doesn't really address the larger problem.
    This is a good question followed by a good observation. The devs should pay both some attention.
    Last edited by Niminae; 01-21-2019 at 07:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
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    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

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