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  1. #1
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    Default Untouchable in SD not WAI?

    I spent a lot of time preparing to take advantage of Untouchable, which is supposed to provide +1% Dodge for each Shadow charge acquired. Last night, I got my 16th AP in SD and took Untouchable. I have 3 levels in Shrouding Shot, so I should be able to hold a maximum of 7 shadow charges. My assumption was that once I built up 7 charges, I would be running with +7% dodge until the charges were either used up or I lost them by dying or exiting the quest.

    Well, my testing last night shows that I do indeed get a dodge bonus for kills with Shrouding Shot, but that the dodge bonus only lasts for something less than 5 seconds! I have not figured out how to look at the number of shadow charges I'm holding directly (would love some help here), so I'm mousing over AC to see my Dodge score. After a battle, I mouse over and can see the higher Dodge score. If I mouse away and then immediately back over, the bonus is gone and I'm back to my base Dodge. It doesn't seem to be a display error, because it builds back from the base Dodge score with each kill once again for each new battle.

    If this is WAI, and Shadow charges only persist for a few seconds before they all disappear, that makes this and all charge activated enhancement pretty worthless, and SD much less desirable overall. I hope this is not the answer. Or is it WAI, but the Dodge bonus only lasts a few seconds? That would be REALLY disappointing as well. Not being able to see the # of shadow charges is hampering my ability to diagnose this effect.

    If anyone can explain to me what is happening, I'd very much appreciate it. I need to be walked back from the ledge
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    hmmm,

    First if you want to see how many charges you have drag one of the abilities that requires charges to your hotbar

    Next keep in mind that these abilities also consume charges when you use them. If you have any of these abilities put them on your hotbar, you will see the number of charges on the icon.

    1. Cloak of Shadows - Use 1 charge to activate
    2. Shadow Manipulation - Use 1 charge to activate
    3. Consume - Use 1 charge to activate
    4. Shadow Form - Use 1 charge to activate

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    hmmm,

    First if you want to see how many charges you have drag one of the abilities that requires charges to your hotbar

    Next keep in mind that these abilities also consume charges when you use them. If you have any of these abilities put them on your hotbar, you will see the number of charges on the icon.

    1. Cloak of Shadows - Use 1 charge to activate
    2. Shadow Manipulation - Use 1 charge to activate
    3. Consume - Use 1 charge to activate
    4. Shadow Form - Use 1 charge to activate
    I have none of these enhancements. I only plan to take Shadow Form, which I will need 6 more AP before I get to. This reminds me that I have a maximum of 6 shadow charges for now, not 7 as stated earlier. Do you think that not having any enhancements that use shadow charges is somehow borking Untouchable by causing the shadow charges to disappear? I could re-spec for Cloak of Shadows and see if it changes anything. This would also allow me to track charges, so this is a good next step. Someone must have run into this before.
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  4. #4
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think it is, but wanted to give you these as options to help track the number of charges you have.

    Before you respec to shadow cloak, and because I don't recall, have you tried dragging the untouchable ability to your hotbar? If you can it might display your charge count.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I honestly don't think it is, but wanted to give you these as options to help track the number of charges you have.

    Before you respec to shadow cloak, and because I don't recall, have you tried dragging the untouchable ability to your hotbar? If you can it might display your charge count.
    I tried, I can't drag it into a hotbar. I just found a bunch of old threads (mostly summer 2012) saying that Shadow charges do not accumulate until you have an ACTIVE enhancement that uses them. It was a known bug reported at least 6.5 years ago. Everyone who was effected back then appeared to have the same problem I am having, grabbed Untouchable before any of the active enhancements that use charges and noticed that no Dodge bonus was given. The workaround has been to take Cloak of Shadows even if you don't want it, and then re-spec once you get enough AP for Shadow Form.
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  6. #6
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    the dodge does stay i just tested it out. But i don't think shrouding shot provides +2 maximum charges per level u get i think it's only +2 maximum charges base i could be wrong on that and im too lazy to go reset the tree and test it but from reading it it just sounds like a +2 maximum charges regardless if u have it 1/3 or 3/3

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nokills View Post
    the dodge does stay i just tested it out. But i don't think shrouding shot provides +2 maximum charges per level u get i think it's only +2 maximum charges base i could be wrong on that and im too lazy to go reset the tree and test it but from reading it it just sounds like a +2 maximum charges regardless if u have it 1/3 or 3/3
    I found some great testing done by a player in 2013. See link below. I'll assume that this is still bugged, and that an active shadow form enhancement is indeed required to hold shadow charges. Shrouding shot will give +2 max charges per level, but you must have an active enhancement, and the number caps at 7 regardless of how many '+1 max shadow charge' enhancements are taken. If Untouchable is not taken, this hard cap to charges may not be applicable. Since this is 5+ yrs old info, I'll re-confirm for myself if the plat cost isn't too high.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Possible-bug?
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    I found some great testing done by a player in 2013. See link below. I'll assume that this is still bugged, and that an active shadow form enhancement is indeed required to hold shadow charges. Shrouding shot will give +2 max charges per level, but you must have an active enhancement, and the number caps at 7 regardless of how many '+1 max shadow charge' enhancements are taken. If Untouchable is not taken, this hard cap to charges may not be applicable. Since this is 5+ yrs old info, I'll re-confirm for myself if the plat cost isn't too high.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Possible-bug?
    Confirmed. The bug is the same as it was six years ago. You must have an active enhancement that uses shadow charges in order for them to accumulate and persist as a Dodge bonus with Untouchable. I re-speced with Cloak of Shadows and shadow charges are now building up to 7 max, and I am getting a +7% bonus to Dodge. I'll be re-specing out Cloak when I get to 22 AP and swap in Shadow Form.
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  9. #9

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    Oldschool it has been enjoyable for me seeing you becoming a pro
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    Oldschool it has been enjoyable for me seeing you becoming a pro
    I'm very far from that, trust me, but thanks for the complement. I enjoy learning how to be better at this game, not so much confirming 6 year old bugs. That part is a bit disheartening. It's kind of like Guard items being bugged. How is a newb like me supposed to know that? I gave up on them pretty early on, as they did not scale well, but had I known that they were all stuck at 1d6 I could have worried even less about it.

    I'd love to see an 'errata/known bug/not WAI' list for DDO if that exists. It would be a massive compilation from what I can tell, but would be quite valuable to newbies. Does this exist?
    Zanthiss - Level 30 Rogue Mechanic - Cannith

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    Confirmed. The bug is the same as it was six years ago.
    It's really frustrating. This is not apparently actually a Shadowdancer specific bug - it's just how DDO holds activation charges. Without something to spend them on, a player doesn't hold a maximum number of those charges in its data. Part of me thinks that the cleanest way to fix this is to make the first core of Shadowdancer an active ability that spends Shadow Charges so no one has this problem in the future.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's really frustrating. This is not apparently actually a Shadowdancer specific bug - it's just how DDO holds activation charges. Without something to spend them on, a player doesn't hold a maximum number of those charges in its data. Part of me thinks that the cleanest way to fix this is to make the first core of Shadowdancer an active ability that spends Shadow Charges so no one has this problem in the future.
    It does appear that way abilities like Blitz, Advancing Blow, Righteous Fervor and Endless Ardor all appear to be abilities that use the charge in some way.


    But what if you added to Shrouding Strike/Shot +1 to Doublestrike/DoubleShot (based on option chosen) for each stack, this way charges are tracked in the buff bar. Would up to +7 to each of those be to OP for users of that ED? They are picking to hold charges or spend them, if more is needed would adding a reasonable countdown timer to expire the charges help?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's really frustrating. This is not apparently actually a Shadowdancer specific bug - it's just how DDO holds activation charges. Without something to spend them on, a player doesn't hold a maximum number of those charges in its data. Part of me thinks that the cleanest way to fix this is to make the first core of Shadowdancer an active ability that spends Shadow Charges so no one has this problem in the future.
    Heck, you could give it an extra ability that players could spend the charges on, leave it out of the description and not give access to triggering that ability to anyone. That way, there's a placeholder ability and no real changes need to be made.

    As someone who used to work in QA, I *HATE* workarounds like that, but as someone who writes programs, I love workarounds like that.
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