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  1. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Anuu, yours have been a lot of hours a day for five days a week for two months repeating again and again the same quests, all to finish *one* of the grinds of the game (with the addition that you are a very good player, many people can not have that speed even in the case of having so many hours of play at their disposal). I do not censure you because you like that, but you can hardly call us whiners because we think that is a total boredom and an error on the part of the designers. This level of grind is not logical, Anuu. It is not surprising that all the new players that I have brought to this game have desisted after seeing the panorama

    The truth is that I remember very well when it took less than that to leave an alt ready with hardly any differences of power between him and my main. Now? The differences are abysmal and I doubt that I can ever shorten them, because the devs seem inclined to design an endless grind.

    No, no, we're not complaining without reasons. We are people who do not like how the game has derived. We are people who believe that the actual design strategy is wrong and harmful. You can disagree, but you can hardly deny the difference in power between toons or the existence of an endless grind that many consider boring
    I can almost agree with this, almost. Except I didn't start TRing until late 2017, and not because I had to keep up. I started it because of the potential of Warlocks as tanks. I play tanks almost exclusively and with martial past lives alone, puts them in the running for best tank build, WITH a bit of dps. That said, even before ANY past lives, my Paladins, Fighters and those WLs were able to keep up and excel in any content, reaper or otherwise. Proper gearing for content, even conditional gearing for specific raids/quest, has always been the breaking point in this game. An extreme example would be Miior, ever try her without an evasion character with you? With an evasion tank she is a breeze. I would say my greatest strength in this game, and many others, is experience, then gear and not worrying about what others can and can't do.

  2. #322
    Community Member Maldorin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Ok, so you really want to increase the gap between a new players characters and a veterans characters.

    At least now we can have an honest conversation.
    Well, that's just me. I speak only for myself. And the subject of power gap is a matter that effects both alts and new players so I'm sure this thread has people discussing both.

    The common theme is grind. It would be nice if someone with the skills could make a visual graph of how grind has increased over the years. The ratio of power to time required for said power.

    Like 2011. Maxed out toon. Average play time required: 350 hours.
    2019 Maxed out toon. Average play time required:. 4000 hours.


  3. #323
    Community Member Maldorin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    We are already at the point where gear is more powerful than past lives. They could fix this issue by making gear even better, AND (and this is extremely important) making it extremely easy to both acquire AND store. I am weak compared to most people with as many lives and as much experience as me because I don't change my clothes very often. I don't have the space to hold as many gear sets as this game needs so I wear heroic gear all through epic levels.
    Yes. It's interesting that as soon as I hit 29 and can equip level 29 gear the gap between me and friends with many more past lives than me, narrows.

    But there are wastelands of "no good gear" in the epic range. Especially if you don't craft. Which I don't and never will. Sometimes I wear the same gear from 20 to 26 or 27. And sometimes the level 10 Ravenloft stuff is better than level 20 stuff.

    While I'm not for "you get gear and you get gear and you get gear!" for free

    It should at least ... exist.

  4. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldorin View Post
    Yes. It's interesting that as soon as I hit 29 and can equip level 29 gear the gap between me and friends with many more past lives than me, narrows.

    But there are wastelands of "no good gear" in the epic range. Especially if you don't craft. Which I don't and never will. Sometimes I wear the same gear from 20 to 26 or 27. And sometimes the level 10 Ravenloft stuff is better than level 20 stuff.

    While I'm not for "you get gear and you get gear and you get gear!" for free

    It should at least ... exist.
    For 3 weeks of grinding loot and breaking it down, you can hit 70k++++ cannith essences pretty easy. Faster if you do only loot grinds. Add 1200 ddo points to that, 1 hour of your time and you will hit 340+ crafting.

    Look up cannith crafting leveling plan, google works. Follow it for a no pain crafting grind.

    Yes technically its PTW, but I personally did it with free ddo points.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuulified View Post
    For 3 weeks of grinding loot and breaking it down, you can hit 70k++++ cannith essences pretty easy. Faster if you do only loot grinds. Add 1200 ddo points to that, 1 hour of your time and you will hit 340+ crafting.

    Look up cannith crafting leveling plan, google works. Follow it for a no pain crafting grind.

    Yes technically its PTW, but I personally did it with free ddo points.
    Probably true, but for reference this a large chunk of many players yearly playtime, and new players are willing to invest perhaps 3 hours doing boring stuff. I mention this because many people on the forum seem to assume everybody lives for DDO. Any argument along the lines of "Yes this problem exist, but new players just need to grind for X first before they can have fun", where X is weeks/months/years, is basically a huge turn-off to new players.

  6. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Probably true, but for reference this a large chunk of many players yearly playtime, and new players are willing to invest perhaps 3 hours doing boring stuff. I mention this because many people on the forum seem to assume everybody lives for DDO. Any argument along the lines of "Yes this problem exist, but new players just need to grind for X first before they can have fun", where X is weeks/months/years, is basically a huge turn-off to new players.
    What your describing is a personal issue and present in every mmo. If you want X do X to get it and stop insisting for hand outs based on personal preference. All mmo have a grind associated with them, just some more then others. It IS what helps keep the lights on.

  7. #327
    Community Member Maldorin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuulified View Post
    For 3 weeks of grinding loot and breaking it down, you can hit 70k++++ cannith essences pretty easy. Faster if you do only loot grinds. Add 1200 ddo points to that, 1 hour of your time and you will hit 340+ crafting.

    Look up cannith crafting leveling plan, google works. Follow it for a no pain crafting grind.

    Yes technically its PTW, but I personally did it with free ddo points.
    Oh I know. I play with a friend that crafts and I hear a few times a week that I should craft. I really should craft. I need to start crafting. But...

    I don't want to and I promised myself years ago that if this game ever pushed me to craft against my will, I'd quit.

  8. #328
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuulified View Post
    I can almost agree with this, almost. Except I didn't start TRing until late 2017, and not because I had to keep up. I started it because of the potential of Warlocks as tanks. I play tanks almost exclusively and with martial past lives alone, puts them in the running for best tank build, WITH a bit of dps. That said, even before ANY past lives, my Paladins, Fighters and those WLs were able to keep up and excel in any content, reaper or otherwise. Proper gearing for content, even conditional gearing for specific raids/quest, has always been the breaking point in this game. An extreme example would be Miior, ever try her without an evasion character with you? With an evasion tank she is a breeze. I would say my greatest strength in this game, and many others, is experience, then gear and not worrying about what others can and can't do.
    I do not worry about what others can do, except if I become a burden when I group with them. But I do worry about seeing the huge differences between my main and my alts, even with the same gear. And it's certainly easy to feel useless when you carry an alt and group with supertoons. I also worry that each and every one of the friends that I brought to the game have been shocked to see the amount of grind that awaits them, although I tried to minimize the problem before them. The fact that some challenges are more apt for some builds than for others is something else, and I see it very normal.

    It is not that each build needs every life that exists in the game, but for a correct performance you need a good handful of them, different according to the build; repeating all this process with each alt is, currently, tiring and long, and even then, the alt will not be up to your main. I really miss when there were hardly any differences between mains and alts.

    Can you really say, annu, that shorten the grind, as for example giving both a heroic + racial life, and reversing the order of the racial lives 1 and 3, or making it possible to make etr with the full karma -something that more or less equals with the original ETR time before the cap was 30- is a bad thing? That helping new players and alts in this way is a bad thing, and that those who ask for things like this are just pesky whiners? Can you really say that currently there is not a grind that is comparable to the worst korean mmos, and that there are not too big differences between characters?

    Honestly, most of the arguments I have heard against the idea of shorting the grind are framed within two categories, the selfish one of "I have done it, so others must do too" (ignoring the fact that they confronted the grinds sequentially and not at once) which is also the argument of "I do not want others to have toons as good as mine" The second category is that of people who think that things should never change, because it will certainly happen an Armageddon when something change: a category of very predictable people, because many people fear changes, although nothing happens when they happen. And frankly, refusing a change just to please these two groups, it seems pretty useless.

    And although this type of changes favours alts and newbies, the truth is that newbies always have it worse. Facing a grind when you're a veteran is one thing, facing it then you are newbie is other very different; for example, you say, a couple of weeks for getting essences for leveling crafting and ready (indeed, it is what I took also with this grind), but someone new has a lot of grinds ahead. Someone veteran can get thousands of essences in a couple of weeks of epic play; a newbie, who plays at a lower difficulty (aka lower loot drop) and more slowly, costs him more than a pair of weeks. The newbie also needs farm gear (nothing surprising, something common in all mmos). He also needs farm extra lives (I think people have forgotten how terrible the 28-point buids are ... and honestly, do we need the new ones to start with 28 points, when there are people with literally hundreds of lives now? Let newbies start with 32 points, a system revision is needed!) You, who are an elite player with good knowledge of game and good gear, can do all epic past lives farm in 2 months (still using many hours a day), something new o with less time will need more months for ending this grind.

    Even so, we all have been new in this and other mmos, and yes, we know that a certain grind is inevitable. It is useless and unreal (and more as is currently the game) ask for the elimination of the grind. What we have in the ddo is currently an *excess* of grind that will be coupled with excessive rewards that mark large differences in power. Shortening the amount of that grind can only be good for the game. For balance of the game, for retention of new players, and for the mental health of those who play alts or who simply detest the grind.

    And yes, Annu, years ago you did not need to do reincarnations, really. That ddo and the current are two very different games.
    Last edited by Iriale; 01-12-2019 at 08:48 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  9. #329
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldorin View Post
    Oh I know. I play with a friend that crafts and I hear a few times a week that I should craft. I really should craft. I need to start crafting. But...

    I don't want to and I promised myself years ago that if this game ever pushed me to craft against my will, I'd quit.
    To be fair, cannith crafting is the simplest and fastest grind of all, if you play in epics a couple of weeks. You can do it even without spending ddo points, although you will need a few thousand more essences. It is not a grind unaffordable for a veteran; it can be combined with the cap play or etrs, without interrupting your normal play. It is well designed grind.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldorin View Post
    The common theme is grind. It would be nice if someone with the skills could make a visual graph of how grind has increased over the years. The ratio of power to time required for said power.
    When MoTU and EDs were released and EDs were filled out 7+ years ago, my critical rage LD druid/barb/cleric wolf generally 1 shot or 1 second killed at-level EE mobs with its various stunning attacks and dps (stunning blow, anvil of thunder, balanced attacks, or ear smash) while leveling.

    My wolf is less powerful now than it was 7 years ago due to repeated nerfs to crit, blitz, and wolves.

    Oh, and tree builds got nerfed into the ground as well.

    So um, after tons of time over years, a net negative 50% power or so.

    Those of you citing all this power creep and past life bonuses are forgetting the small details of nerfs like -180 melee power to blitz. Or cutting critical in half on special attacks. Or cutting the number of attacks of wolves and trees in half. You know. The small stuff.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-12-2019 at 09:22 AM.

  11. #331
    Community Member Maldorin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    When MoTU and EDs were released and EDs were filled out 7+ years ago, my critical rage LD druid/barb/cleric wolf generally 1 shot or 1 second killed at-level EE mobs with its various stunning attacks and dps (stunning blow, anvil of thunder, balanced attacks, or ear smash) while leveling.

    My wolf is less powerful now than it was 7 years ago due to repeated nerfs to crit, blitz, and wolves.

    Oh, and tree builds got nerfed into the ground as well.

    So um, after tons of time over years, a net negative 50% power or so.

    Those of you citing all this power creep and past life bonuses are forgetting the small details of nerfs like -180 melee power to blitz. Or cutting critical in half on special attacks. Or cutting the number of attacks of wolves and trees in half. You know. The small stuff.
    Nerfed or not nerfed there's still a ton of power in maxed out epic destinies and having 5 twists.

    You can test this by running in reaper with no epic destiny points spent in your tree and nothing twisted in. It makes a difference yes?

    So the nerf is like insult to injury. Things are nerfed but still useful/helpful. People still grind for them. So basically you get less for more.

    What would be really cool is if TRing cost a percentage of reaper XP. Hahaha.

    I'd love it.

  12. #332

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    I do not worry about what others can do, except if I become a burden when I group with them. But I do worry about seeing the huge differences between my main and my alts, even with the same gear. And it's certainly easy to feel useless when you carry an alt and group with supertoons. I also worry that each and every one of the friends that I brought to the game have been shocked to see the amount of grind that awaits them, although I tried to minimize the problem before them. The fact that some challenges are more apt for some builds than for others is something else, and I see it very normal.

    It is not that each build needs every life that exists in the game, but for a correct performance you need a good handful of them, different according to the build; repeating all this process with each alt is, currently, tiring and long, and even then, the alt will not be up to your main. I really miss when there were hardly any differences between mains and alts.

    Can you really say, annu, that shorten the grind, as for example giving both a heroic + racial life, and reversing the order of the racial lives 1 and 3, or making it possible to make etr with the full karma -something that more or less equals with the original ETR time before the cap was 30- is a bad thing? That helping new players and alts in this way is a bad thing, and that those who ask for things like this are just pesky whiners? Can you really say that currently there is not a grind that is comparable to the worst korean mmos, and that there are not too big differences between characters?

    Honestly, most of the arguments I have heard against the idea of shorting the grind are framed within two categories, the selfish one of "I have done it, so others must do too" (ignoring the fact that they confronted the grinds sequentially and not at once) which is also the argument of "I do not want others to have toons as good as mine" The second category is that of people who think that things should never change, because it will certainly happen an Armageddon when something change: a category of very predictable people, because many people fear changes, although nothing happens when they happen. And frankly, refusing a change just to please these two groups, it seems pretty useless.

    And although this type of changes favours alts and newbies, the truth is that newbies always have it worse. Facing a grind when you're a veteran is one thing, facing it then you are newbie is other very different; for example, you say, a couple of weeks for getting essences for leveling crafting and ready (indeed, it is what I took also with this grind), but someone new has a lot of grinds ahead. Someone veteran can get thousands of essences in a couple of weeks of epic play; a newbie, who plays at a lower difficulty (aka lower loot drop) and more slowly, costs him more than a pair of weeks. The newbie also needs farm gear (nothing surprising, something common in all mmos). He also needs farm extra lives (I think people have forgotten how terrible the 28-point buids are ... and honestly, do we need the new ones to start with 28 points, when there are people with literally hundreds of lives now? Let newbies start with 32 points, a system revision is needed!) You, who are an elite player with good knowledge of game and good gear, can do all epic past lives farm in 2 months (still using many hours a day), something new o with less time will need more months for ending this grind.

    Even so, we all have been new in this and other mmos, and yes, we know that a certain grind is inevitable. It is useless and unreal (and more as is currently the game) ask for the elimination of the grind. What we have in the ddo is currently an *excess* of grind that will be coupled with excessive rewards that mark large differences in power. Shortening the amount of that grind can only be good for the game. For balance of the game, for retention of new players, and for the mental health of those who play alts or who simply detest the grind.

    And yes, Annu, years ago you did not need to do reincarnations, really. That ddo and the current are two very different games.
    It is a grind because you make it so. The only real grind that is "needed" is for gear, and really, isn't that much of one. Past lives are not needed to do well in this game. The belief that you need them is what is driving you. You dont even need past lives for DC casters anymore with itemization, helpful sure, but not needed.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuulified View Post
    What your describing is a personal issue and present in every mmo. If you want X do X to get it and stop insisting for hand outs based on personal preference. All mmo have a grind associated with them, just some more then others. It IS what helps keep the lights on.
    No, it's not present in every MMO because power is usually entirely tied to level (or gear, which is also tied to level). This is used to group players of equal progression against appropriate difficulty. DDO has broken this mechanic, which is the cause of the controversy. It's not present in D&D either, where starting with extra stats would give a level adjustment.

    It's interesting that you describe paying customers not wanting to invest all their time into a game as a "personal problem". That was the exact viewpoint I called out as problematic in my post.

    What keeps the lights on is customers, and many are put off by the non-level power gap, and the enormous grind to close it. They don't care much about absolute levels of power, they just want to have fun playing an online RPG. However, this is a group-based game with very slim pickings of LFMs, they will inevitably be faced with the reality of the power gap and prospects of a grind. It narrows at cap, but how many new players make it there? Does anybody have a clue what the retention rate of DDO even is?

  14. #334
    Community Member Mglaxix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldorin View Post
    Oh I know. I play with a friend that crafts and I hear a few times a week that I should craft. I really should craft. I need to start crafting. But...

    I don't want to and I promised myself years ago that if this game ever pushed me to craft against my will, I'd quit.
    Problem solved ask your friend to do all your crafting I'm sure they will ask you to supply some mats but those are easy enough to come by.
    Main 100+ Lives ( 44x HTR 15x ITR 36x ETR 16x RTR 68/154 Reaper Points ), Jynxer - Completionist ( 19x HTR 6x ITR 9x ETR 28/154 ), SoulDuster - Completionist - Paladin ( 15x HTR 3x ETR 18/154 ), 7 @ 4th life, 1 @ 3rd life, 2 @ 2nd life.

  15. #335
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldorin View Post
    Well, that's just me. I speak only for myself. And the subject of power gap is a matter that effects both alts and new players so I'm sure this thread has people discussing both.

    The common theme is grind. It would be nice if someone with the skills could make a visual graph of how grind has increased over the years. The ratio of power to time required for said power.

    Like 2011. Maxed out toon. Average play time required: 350 hours.
    2019 Maxed out toon. Average play time required:. 4000 hours.

    This. Also notice: a maxxed out toon in 2011 would not have that much more power compared to a character that recieved a moderate effort. The difference was not noticed in game really, it was so small that it was in that little % range that humans can't really perceive and would not know it exists if it was not written in the sheet.

    So, the other hot topic here is that the system used to be front loaded, now it's not the case anymore, or not in the same instensity as it used to be. Front loaded systems are healthy for the game, talking about inherent benefits (unlike enhancement trees, that are not inherent and should be back loaded).
    Last edited by Ellihor; 01-12-2019 at 05:59 PM.
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  16. #336
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post

    I'm not sure that the reaper points disaster has a solution. I have seen the difference between having 10 points to 43 (brutal!) And the difference between having 43 to 100+ (also brutal!) Making this system account based (how slarden ask) can accentuate the differences. Perhaps the most elegant solution would be to limit the amount of aps that can be spent on the trees (41-45 reaper points max), and probably limit that expense to just one tree. But that's for sure that it would generate discomfort among the grinders who currently have 100+ points (part of the discomfort could be mitigated with the addition of new cosmetics and bragging right rewards that show progression beyond 45 reaper points). But it is the only solution that allows both an individual development of the reaper experience without creating huge differences between characters, and allowing alts and new players to achieve acceptable competence in an acceptable grind time
    The problem of making RXP account based is that people would roll iconics, level to 20 in one day, use another account to do lv 30 quest on R10 while parking the iconic at entrace to get the RXP, then delete the iconic and roll another. You could make it so that when you delete the character you loose the RXP on the account that was earned by the character, but this doesn't fix the issue with newbies, pretty much the opposite, it would make it bigger.

    So reaper points are really a problem, the only solution is a total revamp of the system. To start with, as was suggested, the best benefits should be low on the trees, because as pointed out, the system must be back loaded, unlike an enhancement tree, because reaper trees are an inherent bonus... unlike a normal enhancement tree. So the fact that they designed them like the normal enhancement trees is bad, since the way they're acquired is totally different. That is the first step. The next should be to reduce the gap between 10 RAP, 40 RAP and 60 RAP to what is the gap between 60 and 80, wich is not that big, but there is one. And again the only solution is changing the trees. DDO needs a reaper enhancement pass, urgently.
    Last edited by Ellihor; 01-12-2019 at 06:26 PM.
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  17. #337
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Currently the most obvious difference for a new player is the reaper HP and not past lives though.
    That's because you see those. But you are not seeing the 30 PRR from PLs and 24 from reaper trees. That's 54 PRR difference, this is insane when you combine that with the extra HP.

    Compare a 2000 HP 190 PRR character to a 2800 HP 244 PRR: that is 5800 effective HP versus 9632 effective HP. THAT IS A 66% DIFFERENCE IN CAPACITY TO TAKE PHYSICAL DAMAGE BEFORE DYING, on the same god damn build, with the same equipment and so on. This is completely ridiculous.

    And let's not even talk about the extra damage capacity, AC, saves, MRR, absorption and so on. All these things togheter are synergetic, the result is higher and the sum of the parts. And we didn't talk about racial points either... oh man
    Last edited by Ellihor; 01-12-2019 at 07:06 PM.
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  18. #338
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuulified View Post
    It is a grind because you make it so. The only real grind that is "needed" is for gear, and really, isn't that much of one. Past lives are not needed to do well in this game. The belief that you need them is what is driving you. You dont even need past lives for DC casters anymore with itemization, helpful sure, but not needed.
    Past lives and rpx make a big difference in survival and performance. It's no coincidence that there are so many people farming them, nor that alt-play is dying

    I'm a caster player. I know very well the difference in performance that has caster character with and without past lives
    Last edited by Iriale; 01-12-2019 at 07:11 PM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  19. #339
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    That's because you see those. But you are not seeing the 30 PRR from PLs and 24 from reaper trees. That's 54 PRR difference, this is insane when you combine that with the extra HP.

    Compare a 2000 HP 190 PRR character to a 2800 HP 244 PRR: that is 5800 effective HP versus 9632 effective HP. THAT IS A 66% DIFFERENCE IN CAPACITY TO TAKE PHYSICAL DAMAGE BEFORE DYING, on the same god damn build, with the same equipment and so on. This is completely ridiculous.

    And let's not even talk about the extra damage capacity, AC, saves, MRR, absorption and so on. All these things togheter are synergetic, the result is higher and the sum of the parts. And we didn't talk about racial points either... oh man
    It's simple mathematics, yes. But the same people who obsessively farm these benefits deny that they are necessary or even useful. Curious paradox
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  20. #340
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    It's simple mathematics, yes. But the same people who obsessively farm these benefits deny that they are necessary or even useful. Curious paradox
    Yes was about to edit to include this. Other day a guy in game said the same thing. "You only need the gear". LOL
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