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  1. #1
    DDO Players Council Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Default Knight of the Chalice rework

    Hello, the following is my suggestion for a general rework of KOTC for better usability and a bit more dps. This is a copy/paste from my PC thread. I had to remove all NDA things which include any Dev or PC feedback. Post your thoughts here and I will try to get the devs to read it. Even if they keep up with the thread they are deep into Sharn right now so doubtful any changes will happen until after the expansion. There are two goals here I am aiming for: keep changes minimal so more likely to happen, focus on usability over increasing power.

    Cores:
    Only two changes here. Ghost Touch on weapons moved to level 3. I don't think a Hunter of the Dead should be behind Wolf or EK builds. Second change is to move Immunity to Energy Drain to level 12 core.


    I will be listing the tree by row and column. The first enhancement listed for each tier goes in column one and so on. I am trying to keep a theme to each column.
    Column one is undead and healing amp.
    Two is channel divinity and dps increasers.
    Three is misc.
    Four is cleave and smite buffs.
    Five is boosts, stats, and deity.

    Tier I:
    Extra Turning: Same as now but add "If you are a level one, two, or three character and only have Paladin levels you gain the turn undead feat(Paladins are granted turn undead at level 4). This solves a lot of the inability to access the lower part of the tree before you gain Turning. Similar to what Tempests get at level one for TWF.
    Divine Might: Lower cost to 1 ap per rank.
    Altruism: Copied from Radiant Servant.
    Extra Smite:
    Action Boost Attack: Change to Attack and Damage same as Fighter(if not currently).

    Tier II:
    Improved Turning:
    Divine Light:
    Rally: I don't know but this needs improved
    Cleave:
    Power Boost:

    Tier III:
    Healing Amp:
    Divine Sacrifice:
    Improved Restoration: Combine with Extra Remove Disease.
    Exalted Smite:
    Stat:

    Tier IV:
    Healing Amp:
    Passion:
    Censure Demons:
    Empowered Smite:
    Stat:

    Tier V:
    Healing Amp:
    Holy Retribution: 1k health is too low for epics. Change to Paladin level x100 or something else that scales.
    Censure Outsiders:
    Cleave:
    Zealot: You gain +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 when using your Deities favored weapon.

  2. #2
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Default 3.5 Based Material Suggestions

    Core Changes

    Slayer of Evil I: You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by evil creatures. You gain +1 to hit and damage evil or undead creatures. Your attacks deal an additional 1d6 Light damage. All Light damage from this tree scales with 100% Melee Power and can critically hit using the weapons critical range and multiplier. Note: The light damage procs on both weapons when two weapon fighting and all glancing blows.

    Courage of Heaven: Your Aura of Courage grants a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by evil creatures. You gain +1 to hit and damage evil or undead creatures. Your attacks deal an additional 1d6 Light damage. All your attacks are considered to be Ghost Touch.

    Slayer of Evil II: Increase the saving throw bonuses from Slayer of Evil I by an additional +2. You gain +2 to hit and damage evil or undead creatures. Your attacks deal an additional 2d6 Light damage.

    Improved Courage of Heaven: Increase the saving throw bonuses from Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. You gain +2 to hit and damage evil or undead creatures. Your attacks deal an additional 3d6 Light damage.

    Slayer of Evil III: Increase the saving throw bonuses from Slayer of Evil I by an additional +3. You gain +3 to hit and damage evil or undead creatures. Your attacks now deal 5d6 additional Light damage. Your vorpal hits against evil or undead creatures do an additional 500 damage.

    Champion of Good: You gain +4 Charisma or +4 Strength and 20 Melee Power. Increase the saving throw bonuses from Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +3. Your attacks now deal 7d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Lawful and Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

    Tier 1
    * Extra Turning: Replace with a 2pt option which grants the Force of Personality feat or the Extra Turning feat.
    * Divine Light: Replace with Divine Sacrifice from Tier 3. The ability should be modified to no longer interrupt the attack chain.
    * Hands of a Healer: You gain +1/+2/+3 Lay on Hands and +2/4/6 Remove Disease uses per rest. (inspired by the Hands of a Healer feat from the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds).
    * Extra Smite: Change to 3 tiers with +2/+4/+6 extra smites per rest.
    * Action Boost Attack: Change to Attack and Damage same as Fighter(if not currently). 30 second cooldown.

    Tier 2
    * Improved Turning: Replace with a 3 tier ability which allows vorpal hits to restore 1 turn undead attempt every 90/75/60 seconds.
    * Divine Might: Use the cleric version.
    * Rally: Replace with Improved Restoration from Tier 3.
    * Exalted Cleave: No changes.
    * Melee Power Boost: No changes.

    Tier 3
    * Improved Restoration: Replace with Sacred Caduceus which causes Remove Disease to also apply the Lay on Hands healing effect. (Inspired by the Caduceus Bracer from the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium).
    * Divine Spirit (Inspired by the Divine Spirit Paladin Alternative Class feature from Dungeonscape)
    Each ability is a Channel Divinity which lasts 20 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.
    Spirit of Healing (Minimum of 5 Paladin Levels): Using Lay on Hands or Remove Disease on a single target applies all the same effects to each ally within 15' of the target. Using Smite Evil, Improved Smite Evil, Devastating Smite or Holy Retribution heals all allies within 15' of the paladin for 1 point per paladin caster level and scales with positive spell power.
    Spirit of Combat (Minimum of 10 Paladin Levels): All allies within 15' of the paladin gain a +1 Divine bonus to attack and damage per 4 paladin levels. The paladin's Smite Evil and Improved Smite Evil abilities are applied as a melee cleave instead of a single target attack.
    Spirit of Heroism (Minimum of 15 Paladin Levels): All allies within 15' of the paladin gain a +2 Divine bonus to PRR and MRR per paladin level.
    Spirit of the Fallen (Minimum of 20 Paladin Levels): Any ally within 15' of the paladin that would die from damage is instead healed the difference between the damage taken and the amount of healing that would be received by the paladin's Lay on Hands ability. If the difference is negative the ally will die instead. An ally can only be affected by this ability once every 3 minutes.
    * Vigor of Life: No changes.
    * Exalted Smite: Reduce cost to 1 point per rank.
    * Charisma or Strength: No changes.

    Tier 4
    * Replace Censure Demons with Censure: On vorpal the target must make a fortitude save DC of (paladin class level + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks) or be stunned for 6 seconds.
    * Replace Passion with Avenging Cleave from Tier 5.
    * Vigor of Life: No changes.
    * Empowered Smite: Using Smite Evil, Improved Smite Evil or Devastating Smite increases your Melee Power by +5/+10/+15 for 10 seconds.
    * Charisma or Strength: No changes.

    Tier 5
    * Replace Censure Outsiders with Zealot: The vorpal range of your weapon becomes 19-20. You gain a +1 critical multiplier for any weapon you wield.
    * Holy Retribution: Melee Channel Divinity: Executes 3 powerful holy strikes against all targets around you (same AoE as Cleave) that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. On Damage: Evil creatures take 100 light damage per paladin caster level from this attack as well as a penalty of -1 per paladin caster level to all ability scores for twenty seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds) This ability also recharges one Smite Evil.
    * Replace Avenging Cleave with Devastating Smite (Inspired by the Devastating Smite spell from the 3.5 Forge of War): Apply the effects of Smite Evil or Improved Smite Evil as a melee cleave for 20 spell points. (Cooldown: 8 seconds).
    * Vigor of Life: No changes.
    * Sealed Life replaced with Passion: Your Divine Sacrifice ability gains: On Damage: Gain 5/10/15 temporary spell points if you strike an evil or undead creature with this attack. You gain 10 melee power.
    Last edited by Alcides; 12-07-2018 at 01:17 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    Having recently played a KOTC paladin; I can safely say that the tree is pretty good (given paladin’s innate benefits); but some of the stuff in the tree is lackluster and/or overcosted AP-wise.

    Now we have 2 versions of suggestions; let’s go over my thoughts:

    Cores:
    (Xyfiel)
    I can get behind the idea of moving ghost touch to level 3; it would help paladins a bit with low level reaper quests and with The Chamber of Insanity (which I typically run at level 4 or 5).
    Moving energy drain immunity from T5 to a core might cause some weeping and gnashing of teeth if builds splashed 5 levels paladin to get it before; I don’t know if these builds exist; but I certainly would not be surprised. For a pure paladin sure; doesn’t make too much difference. The level 12 core does feel like it’s missing something
    (Alcides)
    I don’t really support the idea of increasing the core 1 damage and decreasing the core 2 damage so that they both give the same amount of damage.
    I’ve already supported moving ghost touch up to the level 3 core.
    I honestly can’t say I’ve played paladin enough in epics to support or refute a capstone buff, as I TR’d my build at level 20. I can say that paladin’s DPS did feel like it was slowing down at about the level 18 mark compared with other builds I’ve run.

    Tier 1:
    In general I find KotC tier 1’s to be pretty bad/just filler to get to the better enhancements higher up in the tree.
    (Xyfiel)
    I like the idea of letting paladins take extra turning at level 1; it would save me from having to respect the tree once I hit level 4. Extra turning is just the kind of filler I want to spend on my tier 1 enhancements.
    Divine might: I tried some testing with the morninglord version of this in low level quests before; and I can seriously say that I was unimpressed by the damage of it; 18d6 damage and sometimes it wouldn’t even kill enemies in level 3 quests, with no significant scaling involved. Maybe 1 Ap would do it; or maybe this ability just needs a rework to be less of a low level nuke high level forget ability.
    Remove disease -> Altruism: Personally I prefer remove disease over a minor skill buff, but either way it’s just a minor benefit point filler ability.
    Action boost attack: Adding damage here could help this. Just +8 attack is incredibly weak and not worth using. Alternatively they could increase the values this gives to match the legendary dreadnaught action boost.

    (Alcides)
    Extra turning: Giving a choice of force of personality wouldn’t do anything for me; I never take the feat on any build since will saves are fairly easy to ignore. And paladin is in general immune to nearly everything will save based. So this change for me would boil down to wanting to spend 1 AP for 1 turn up to 3 times into spending 2 AP for 4 turns once, and not being able to stack with a feat that I might want to take. Umm… I sort of prefer Xyfiel’s take on what to do with this ability.
    Divine Light -> Divine Sacrifice: This would reinforce the idea that paladin should get to level 4 then respect; divine sacrifice is quite good at low levels, especially for newer players, but as mob HP and player damage quickly outscale it, the AP become a liability. Fortunately by this point you’ll have unlocked turning undead; so you could put your AP in there instead after the respect. I can get behind this change.
    Remove Disease -> Hands of the Healer: This takes what is currently a meh filler ability; and adds one of the best filler abilities from sacred defender on as a bonus. I sort of feel like this is a bit much; but we do live in a world where aasimar get better for free. Idk.
    Extra Smite -> This is sort of like saying “wizards have mana problems, should we give them a little more mana? Y/N?”. I don’t know, do we want to have paladins have to calculate out their smite uses in quests? Mostly this stops mattering so much at higher levels when they can turn turns into smites as well.
    Action boost attack: Red my comments on this in Xyfiel’s section.

    Tier 2:
    (Xyfiel)
    Yep; rally sucks. If they changed it into an AoE Divine Favor + Virtue maybe it would be worth taking. Heck; they could make it “you cast all of your level 1 spells on all allies, even spells which are self target only” and it would be mildly worth using (and better then it is now). Alternately; just reduce it to 1 AP and scrap it to make room for a better ability.

    (Alcides)
    Please don’t remove improved turning; I need it to make my turning builds work at higher levels.
    Divine might: yep, I can fully support lowering the cost of this to 1 AP like cleric. I’m a bit on the fence of if it should cost AP or turns; turns are much more valuable for a paladin.
    Rally -> Improved Restoration: Yep; as I mentioned above, one good option for rally is to remove it and replace it with a better ability. Such as improved restoration. I support this idea.

    Tier 3:
    (Xyfiel)
    Improved Restoration -> Unlike a lot of stuff in this tree; I feel like improved restoration is fairly priced for what it does. That said; I wouldn’t shed a tear if it got combined with bonus uses, it’s not like a pali usually uses all the uses of remove disease anyways.

    (Alcides)
    Improved Restoration -> Sacred Caduceus: I feel like having remove disease charges also provide LoH would give paladin way too much healing potential. LoH is of the heal self to full in reaper levels of healing and pali’s can get a lot of remove diseases. Pali isn’t supposed to be a raid healer.
    Divine Spirit: This sounds cool; but also problematic and potentially OP in places. First off; is this a multiselector, or does the divine spirit bonus just change at different levels? Or does it grant all of the abilities? Secondly; this is a tier 3 ability which requires 5 paladin levels to take?
    Now onto the spirits:
    Spirit of healing -> On base I’m not against making LoH and remove disease AoE; AoE healing is often difficult to use well, and given limited charnges (as long as they don’t double their charges by using remove disease as LoH) this shouldn’t be too bad on its own. However, making all the types of smites AoE heal as well pretty much gives them the best ability in the warpriest tree; for free; without a cooldown; and upwards of 30 uses per rest. So I’m against that part of it.
    Spirit of combat -> +5 to hit/damage is better then what a bard gets with their fancy new bard song (nerfs?), but really it isn’t all that game breaking. Quite good yes, but not game breaking. Making all their smites into cleaves however would make them pretty insane at AoE damage and make fighters and barbs very sad. Paladins already have 3 cleaves as it is.
    Spirit of Heroism -> Simple; but that’s a lot of extra potential mitigation for the whole party. Maybe 1 per paladin level or epic level would be better, and/or only PRR.
    Spirit of the Fallen -> For all the other spirits being incredibly powerful; this one feels meh. LoH heal for free without having to cast it is pretty amazing and it’s essentially a heal to full instead of die. 3 mins is a hefty cooldown, and on average most people would probably find spirit of healing a better version of this; even should it be nerfed in every way I propose.
    Exalted Smite: Yep; I don’t think this needs to be buffed. It’s an attack which scales very well with levels, pastlives, items and all those other bells and whistles of a veteran. The critical profile increase averages 50-70% bonus damage on the attack based on weapon (falchion benefits the most from the small selection I calculated, Greataxe the least), and that’s not even including the up to 143 bonus base damage the attack can do from being a smite. (Which is also multiplied by the critical profile this gives.

    Tier 4:

    (Xyfiel)
    Suggested no changes.

    (Alcides)
    Passion -> Avenging cleave. I’m not totally against this. Other melee classes get great cleave at levels 4-6; having paladin’s version of greatcleave available at levels 4-6 isn’t too bad an idea. It’s not like Avenging cleave is all that much better then greatcleave anyways.
    Empowered smite: Is just shoehorning another 10 melee power into the tree for another 4? AP. Certainly not necessary for paladins in heroic levels, but maybe it’d be needed in epic levels. Or maybe it’d be needed if nothing else in the tree is significantly buffed at all. Paladins have a lot of benefits over fighters/barbs/other 2 handed wielders, and don’t really need competitive or better melee power ontop of those other advantages.

    Tier 5:
    (Xyfiel)
    Holy retribution: This ability is… pretty amazing when you get it; and feels like it is a large part of what paladins feel like they fall off in higher levels. 1000 HP is great for level 12, and I wouldn’t want it increased. Maybe 80 per character level would be smart.
    Sealed Life -> Zealot: Ok yeah I can get behind this. Most diety favored weapons are suboptimal for a paladin for one reason or another; so while I’m not sure if a paladin needs a 10% crit-based dps increase… this would be increasing the dps of the lower dps paladin builds without touching the higher dps paladin builds. I like that, adds flavor. Might want to be cautious about mauls though.

    (Alcides)
    censure outsiders -> Zealot: while Xyfiel’s verion of zealot made me think for a bit before accepting it; this version is just flat overpowered. Just no. Bad idea. And I don’t want to get rid of censure outsiders; it’s a cool/flavorful ability.
    Holy retribution: given how OP you want to make the rest of the tree; I’m kind of surprised you’re nerfing the best ability in the tree. Is this for some sort of balance? I like this ability; and I feel like Xyfiel’s suggestion and my modification to that would be better to do.
    Avenging Cleave -> Devastating Smite: While I would have to think twice about replacing avenging cleave with an AoE smite; this proposal isn’t to replace it; but rather to move avenging cleave somewhere else and adding an extra cleave into the tree and no; paladins already have 3 cleaves which are all very good; they don’t need a 4th. Avenging cleave could use a small buff though, like making it apply 1/2/3 stacks of vulnerability.
    Sealed Life -> Passion: Another rare nerf you suggested, again in T5. Weird. Anyways Sealed life is one of the paladin’s unique features which is useful and flavorful, I’m not a fan of getting rid of it. Divine Sacrifice is an attack that paladins should typically respec away from; and they don’t need more melee power in the tree.

    Overall:
    (Xyfiel)
    The changes seem to be well thought out on average, and give paladins a little buff without going overboard.

    (Alcides)
    Seems to think that paladins should have +1 critical threat range, +2 critical threat multiplier, vorpal on 19-20 with all weapons 45 melee power, 10% doublestrike and 4 cleaves on different cooldowns which all do 3-5[w] damage or have a critical profile of 11-20 x7 and bonus damage, And heal for approximately to full about 50 times per shrine (in an AoE). In addition to having some of the best PRR/MRR/AC/Saves of any class and some blanket immunities. I feel like this might be a bit overpowered. But some of the stuff he suggests is flavorful; and could be cool to implement in a more balanced way.
    Selvera: Human Fighter 18; Inquisitive build
    Jen: Half Elf Fvs 20/Epic 10; Healer Archer with a more supportive build then usual
    Mayve: Tiefling Sorc 14; Just a pastlife for an alt

  4. #4
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Okay, as someone who has played Paladins a lot, and am going to TR my main into a THF Paladin, the KoTC tree definitely needs an update. IMHO, you can get a much more viable character if you splash 6 Fighter levels and use Kensai as your primary tree. That's a bit of a shame. Instead, it should be a hard choice as to which tree to go with.

    OP, I like your idea of changing the cores. I hadn't thought of that before, but that is a good idea. I also like the change to Divine Might to 1 AP/level. This really is too expensive at 2 AP/level. If you compare this to what Warpriest gets, these should be comparable in AP cost. I don't really have a strong preference between tier 1 or 2. I also think granting turn undead earlier isn't really a big deal as you're going to get to level 4 pretty quickly.

    Okay, so here are my thoughts on what should be changed.

    Tier 1
    Attack Boost...This isn't terribly useful. Change this to a haste boost and this becomes useful.

    Tier 2
    Rally...This is really bad. It costs 2 AP/rank, doesn't stack with GH unless you spend 6 AP (and then you only get +2 more), costs a turn undead to use and has a long cooldown? Are you kidding me? Make this a 2 AP ability with no tiers that casts Remove Fear (which persists as the spell) with no casting cost and something like a 1 minute cooldown. That could be helpful at low levels.

    Tier 3
    Divine Sacrifice...This used to be the only way to increase the DPS on your Paladin, and really the only thing good about it is at tier 1, as this increases your crit multiplier. It's a waste to spend any more APs on it, and honestly it's barely worth bothering with a clicky that you have to constantly hit. Change this to add 1 crit multiplier per tier up to tier 3, and this becomes interesting.

    Exalted Smite...Oh how you could be so much more. Smites should be used to, well, smite an evil foe down. A smite is really only interesting if you get a crit. Deadly Strike in tier 5 of the Kensai tree is exactly what I would think a smite should be, as this attack is automatically considered a critical threat. I think Exalted Smite should be changed to be a mini version of this. Make this be an automatic crit like Deadly Strike, but don't include a crit multiplier, the vorpal effect, and it only works on an evil opponent. Perhaps have it bypass fortification.

    Tier 4
    Censure Demons...This only works on a vorpal, and if you happen to get a stun it only lasts for 3 seconds? That's a joke. Increase the stun duration to 6 seconds to match stunning blow.

    Tier 5
    Holy Retribution...The slaying of evil creatures works for what, like 3 or 4 levels, from levels 12 to 15/16, before becoming useless again? In epics, once you get a mob down to 1,000 HP, it's not going to live much longer anyways. Think of this ability as a comparable but different version of A Good Death in the Kensai tree. So perhaps just change this to have the slaying portion activate if a mob is at or below 30% of health, and also only works on evil mobs. This ability would be better on trash mobs than a Good Death, but wouldn't work on red names, while a Good Death is awesome for red names.
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

  5. #5
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Took out some of the over powered stuff and made this more balanced.

    Feat Changes
    Extra Turning
    Extra Turning allows the character to Turn Undead an additional 4 times per rest period. Paladins taking this feat for the first time gain a +3 to Turn Undead Checks and Damage. This feat may be taken multiple times.

    Core Changes
    Slayer of Evil I: Add all light damage from this tree can critically hit using the weapon's critical profile.
    Courage of Heaven: Add Ghost Touch.
    Slayer of Evil II: Remove Ghost Touch.
    Improved Courage of Heaven: Add Energy Immunity.
    Slayer of Evil III: Change: Your vorpal hits against evil or undead do an additional 500 damage which scales with 200% of Melee Power.
    Champion of Good: Add choice of +4 Strength or +4 Charisma. Add +10 Melee Power. Add Lawful damage flag.

    Tier 1
    * Extra Turning: Replace with a 2pt option which grants the Force of Personality feat or the Extra Turning feat. (Force of Personality fits and reduces MAD, Extra Turning works if implemented like PnP, note the changes to extra turning. Turn Undead is just not that good at epic or in reaper and it's used more for channel divinity abilities).
    * Divine Light: Replace with Divine Sacrifice from Tier 3. The ability should be modified to no longer interrupt the attack chain.
    * Hands of a Healer: You gain +1/+2/+3 Lay on Hands and +2/4/6 Remove Disease uses per rest. (inspired by an Exalted Feat of the same name from the Book of Exalted Deeds).
    * Extra Smite: Change to 3 tiers with +2/+4/+6 extra smites per rest.
    * Action Boost Attack: Change to Attack and Damage same as Fighter(if not currently). 30 second cooldown.

    Tier 2
    * Improved Turning: Replace with a 3 tier ability which allows vorpal hits to restore 1 turn undead attempt every 90/75/60 seconds.
    * Divine Might: Use the cleric version.
    * Rally: Replace with Improved Restoration from Tier 3.
    * Exalted Cleave: No changes.
    * Melee Power Boost: No changes.

    Tier 3
    * Improved Restoration: Replace with new ability called Sacred Caduceus: This combines the effects of Lay on Hands and Remove Disease into one ability. Any effects that would apply to Lay on Hands or Remove Disease would apply to this effect as well. Using this ability expends one Lay on Hands and Remove Disease charge. (Inspired by the Caduceus Bracer from the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium).
    * Divine Spirit (Inspired by the Paladin Alternative Class feature from Dungeonscape) (This would give all the abilities at the appropriate minimum level, since it's an alternative class feature it scales with level this also keeps it out of the hands of splashers, put at tier 3 so vanguard or sacred defenders can still take it).
    Each ability is a separate Channel Divinity which lasts 20 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.
    Spirit of Healing (Minimum of 5 Paladin Levels): Using Lay on Hands, Remove Disease or Sacred Caduceus on a single target applies all the same effects to each ally within 15' of the target.
    Spirit of Combat (Minimum of 10 Paladin Levels): All allies within 15' of the paladin gain a +1 Divine bonus to attack and damage per 4 paladin levels.
    Spirit of Heroism (Minimum of 15 Paladin Levels): All allies within 15' of the paladin gain a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Paladin level for 20 seconds.
    Spirit of the Fallen (Minimum of 20 Paladin Levels): Any ally within 15' of the paladin that would die from damage is instead healed the difference between the damage taken and the amount of healing that would be received by the paladin's Lay on Hands ability. If the difference is negative the ally will die instead. An ally can only be healed by this ability once every 3 minutes.
    * Vigor of Life: No changes.
    * Exalted Smite: Reduce cost to 1 point per rank.
    * Charisma or Strength: No changes.

    Tier 4
    * Replace Censure Demons with Censure: On vorpal the evil or undead creature hit must make a fortitude save DC of (paladin class level + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks) or be stunned for 6 seconds. (This covers undead and evil outsiders and combines the previous 2 enhancements into one).
    * Replace Passion with Avenging Cleave from Tier 5. (Paladin's are pretty feat starved so offering this at tier 4 allows vanguard and sacred defenders to take this.)
    * Vigor of Life: No changes.
    * Empowered Smite: Using Smite Evil, Improved Smite Evil or Devastating Smite increases your Melee Power by +5/+10/+15 for 20 seconds.
    * Charisma or Strength: No changes.

    Tier 5
    * Replace Censure Outsiders with Zealot: The vorpal range of your weapon becomes 19-20. (Removed x1 crit)
    * Holy Retribution: Melee Channel Divinity: Executes 3 powerful holy strikes against all targets around you (same AoE as Cleave) that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. On Damage: Evil creatures take 50 light damage per paladin caster level from this attack as well as a penalty of -1 per paladin level to all ability scores for ten seconds. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) This ability also recharges one Smite Evil. (From what I stated earlier light damage on this tree uses the critical profile of the weapon and would also scale with Melee Power).
    * Replace Avenging Cleave with Devastating Smite (Inspired by the Devastating Smite spell from the 3.5 Forge of War): Apply the effects of Smite Evil or Improved Smite Evil for 10 spell points. (Cooldown: 8 seconds).
    * Vigor of Life: No changes.
    * Passion: Your Divine Sacrifice ability gains: On Damage: Gain 6/13/20 temporary spell points if you strike an evil or undead creature. Temporary spell points is pretty rare so this should probably go in t5.
    Last edited by Alcides; 12-09-2018 at 11:29 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Paladins have very low DPS for a melee class, and this should be addressed.

    The calculus for Paladins of trading off DPS for some healing capabilities is a poor one, and the value of their healing capabilities has been made almost insignificant by the introduction of the Aasimar race.

    Paladins have almost no useful buff spells, and few enough spell slots that only at 20th level do they have the luxury of being able to carry Death ward and Cure Serious Wounds in addition to their two required self-only melee enhancement spells.

    Aside from my general point about low DPS, my only specific complaint about KotC is this: Divine Might and Holy Retribution both draw from the shared Channel Divinity pool. Both of these abilities are needed to keep Paladin DPS up to even the marginal point that they are at right now, and even with Extra Turning III this pool is quite frequently exhausted long before the next shrine is in sight. Even in epics with Endless Turns twisted it is trivial to burn through the pool.

    Holy Retribution scales poorly in epics, but then so many other abilities scale poorly in epics that this is not a unique complaint.

    I can get behind these changes from the OP, which is not to say that I am opposed to any of the other changes which were proposed:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Cores:
    Only two changes here. Ghost Touch on weapons moved to level 3. I don't think a Hunter of the Dead should be behind Wolf or EK builds. Second change is to move Immunity to Energy Drain to level 12 core.

    More needs to be done to boost Paladin DPS, however. I'm not expecting them to equal Fighters/Barbarians/Monks/Rangers, but Paladins are very far behind now and there should be no game balance harm in shrinking that distance.
    Last edited by Niminae; 01-11-2019 at 04:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Annex View Post
    Yngvarr Stormedge: Aye, laddie. Aye. That be a mighty fine pooop deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  7. #7
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    Holy retribution is bugged, and only does 1 hit with handwraps.

    KoTC lacks the free DC/Spell Pen feat bonuses of D&D KotC 3.5 which should improve soundburst splashes and other DC casting. To implement this in DDO terms give them these feats or bonuses equal to these feats when casting against demons and devils.

    Spell Focus and Spell Penetration Feats: Knights of the Chalice automatically gain the benefits of the Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats when casting a targeted spell against a demon. The saving throw DC for such spells is increased by +2, and the knight gets a +2 bonus on caster level checks to beat the demon's spell resistance.

    KoTC also lacks the dismissal spell that should be added to the paladin spell book as per D&D 3.5

    KoTC lacks blinding guard from D&D KoTC 3.5 which should improve native defenses: To implment this in DDO terms, give blinding guard to KoTC paladins.

    Holy Aura (Su): At 10th level, a knight of the Chalice gains the ability to create a holy aura around himself (only) when he is engaged in combat with one or more demons. The aura's effect is as the spell cast by a 10th-level cleric, but it wards the knight against the attacks, spells, and mental influence of demons only, and only demons can be blinded if they strike the knight.

    KotC lacks the ability to censure and banish (instant kill) demons from D&D KoTC 3.5. To implement this in DDO terms, give the ability to turn demons and devils to KoTC paladins, and the mighty turning enhancement necessary to instant kill on turn.

    Censure Demons (Su): Knights of the Chalice can censure demons, much as clerics turn undead. Rather than channeling positive energy, the knight of the Chalice channels energy from the celestial planes of lawful good.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-12-2019 at 07:56 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Just to put my 2 cents in here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    Moving energy drain immunity from T5 to a core might cause some weeping and gnashing of teeth if builds splashed 5 levels paladin to get it before; I don’t know if these builds exist; but I certainly would not be surprised. For a pure paladin sure; doesn’t make too much difference. The level 12 core does feel like it’s missing something
    I can attest that these builds do exist (actually I take 6 paladin for the deity feat). As you said, changing immunity drain to 12 core would not matter to pure builds but would impact the majority of multiclass builds. Specifically, you cannot take sealed life until character level 12 anyway; changing energy drain immunity to KOTC core 12 means you would have to wait at least until character level 13 for any multiclass builds. Essentially, its an increased tax for anyone wanting to multiclass paladin and obtain energy drain immunity.

  9. #9
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    Bugfix- Oh, it would also be nice if another player who used a weaker non-destroy turn undead didn't make undead immune to being destroyed by turn undead with mighty turning.

    Oh, and basic paladins lack the ability to destroy undead when turning like they can in D&D 3.5. Mighty turning is necessary.

    It would also be nice if tier 3 champs didn't exist until dungeon level 4 (6 on reaper) when you can survive a crit from them due to reaper tree/medium fort augment. Getting 1 shot due to being melee on R3 at level 3 at level reaper due to available fort/hp is unavoidable.

    It would be good if Holy Sword added good bypass to the weapon as per D&D 3.5 so that KoTC and paladins in general could break DR and damage demons/devils better.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 01-29-2019 at 11:07 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    I dug up an old alt recently, and to really test the current state of Knight of the Chalice out, up to tier 5, I tweaked my build to a cleaving, DPS-focused build. Here are the things that really jumped out at me:

    Smites
    Smites really need to be a cool-down clicky, and not have charges. I can't believe I'm running a melee that needs to rest at every single shrine. Ugh...Ideally make this and smites work similar to Rapid Attack in the Vistani tree, where you could keep a permanent melee power boost by constantly Smiting once it's off timer.

    Scale
    A whole assortment of abilities need to be reviewed and scaled up to today's game. The numbers were fine years ago, but not any longer.

    I won't waste any more time getting into the minutia, as the developers said they want to rework Knight later this year, but I just wanted to post my thoughts, more as a point of reference to look back on, after Knight is updated.
    Last edited by Ralmeth; 05-18-2019 at 03:08 PM.
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

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