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Thread: Reaper LHoX

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasMink View Post
    I remember when Reaper was advertised as not being balanced around anything and was supposed to be where the devs actively try to just outright kill you.
    Guess that mindset changed somewhere along the line.
    I know the one quote to which you refer, but I have always disagreed. They wouldn't have spent dev time creating the difficulty, let alone 10 of them, if it were literally impossible. Well coordinated, skilled players can find a way in many extreme circumstances. They SHOULD have used some metric to balance the difficulties, but it's more and more clear that their metric was simply "mobs do X% more dmg, take Y% less dmg, add more champs, add reapers. good enough." Very little actual design was done, as evidenced by the tweaking and outright disabling of Reaper mode in certain content.

  2. #42
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    too many whiners are crabs in the pot.. cant be happy about players/builds rising to the top and performing well..., instead they focus their efforts on complaints until nerfs pull them down.

    people are crying in the forums that its easy to charm but they are not the players that have built effective toons to play this role.
    They are spectators... all they see is someone else doing well instead of building comparable useful toons.

    sure, charms can be effective.. but it takes heavy investment to hit the effective benchmarks and focussed spamming successful charms to keep the mob under control while limiting the charmer from effectively contributing anything else.

    many other builds can be effective when built well..
    brute force DPs is still desirable, insta-kills, fury shotters, assassins, froggers, etc.. even tanks are desired in todays game but they still take investment to be decent.


    Screwing over content doesn't help the game, nerfing stuff just pushes players to adapt to something else that works..
    Removing raids from Reaper .. that's not good for anyone.


    Whiner crabs are still whiner crabs...
    I would argue against your characterization that DC casters have to specifically build outside the normal spectrum (Necro/Enchant) for charms. They don't. It does however require a fine touch that is difficult to learn, and can hardly be replicated without skill/experience.

    If a tactic that the devs seem to see as bad, but refuse to fix, and worse, remove raids from reaper difficulty because of it, then it is affecting all the player base. And at that point worth pointing out that a tactic that they refuse to nerf (for better or for worse) is the main culprit to their reasons for nerfing content because it is "to easy". It shows that the devs are quite vengeful when it comes to players accomplishing content and difficulties that they didn't expect to be completed.

    At the end of the day, this raid was nerfed because A) It was quick, and B) The mechanics allowed 3/4ths the raid to pike. Rather than fixing B to improve A, the devs have decided to just remove it from the game period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strambotica View Post
    And i find funny that they "discovered" the rpx/min of the raid. But didnt considered that you need fast dps and good CC for this one, so many reaper points... mmm at least 42 (at least for a caster) ¿?. and more to have some survavility.
    I remember a Lynn quote about the devs wanting to reward players for skill/teamwork.

    I guess with this quote in mind I can kind of see why they removed the reaper difficulty. The rather wonky mechanics of the raid make it seem like there is little teamwork/effort past charming flensers to kill flayers (the flensers hit harder than R10 Strahd did) which is probably the core reason the raid was removed from reaper difficulty. It seemed "to easy" because it was quick. I would however like to point out the difference between quick and easy.

    This raid was not easy on r10. Even with a full blown, experienced high skulls raid team Xzzyzz could still wipe out a high skull raid tank in the blink of an eye. Mobs in the raid hit INSANELY hard comparative to even other r10 raids. If any build besides the tank got even so much as grazed, they were dead. Having ran R10 hound for about 6 months, I have still to this day never seen anyone besides a tank not get 1-shot by anything, and it was not uncommon to see party members go from full health at 2-3k HP to -10-15k in the blink of an eye.

    Now, according to the devs, the main reason this raid was changed was due to the possible rxp/min ratio. However, I also suspect that it was changed because short of a healer/tank/caster, you really didn't need anything else. Basically everyone else was piking because flenser's would 3-shot the flayers, and then after they served their purpose they were IKed. For comparison, in the off times that our caster went down and we had to DPS the flayers, it took 6-8 endgame raiders about a full minute to DPS down one flayer. That DPS ratio is another reason I think this raid was targeted.

    Since people don't want me to become a squeaky wheel here without any ideas, my suggestion to "fix" this raid is to simply give the flensers immunity from charms. The outward raid would not have to be changed, and would still be completable. However you would need a full raid group of DPS, not just pikers, to complete. Where as before anyone not involved with tanking/healing/charming was essentially providing cannon fodder and piker status to the raid, they would need to start pulling their weight and meaningfully contribute to the success of the raid. Casters would still be important CC/IK roles, and the scope of the raid would expand to require all archetypes of the game without stepping on any one class's toes.

    If SSG wants to actually reward player's skill/teamwork then they would see that this raid should not have been taken off reaper status as it was a good payout once every 3 days, but still took a lot of coordination. Much more so than your regular rxp farms of other quests that you can throw together in a couple minutes. However if they don't, I cant help but see this as for what it is, punishing player ingenuity and skill by removing rewards that they deemed too beneficial for players, despite the overwhelming evidence that shows it is hardly alone, and that they themselves want to reward player skill.

  3. #43
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Add in that the raid really gave nothing other than rxp, where as other, fairly close rxp/min quests gave BiS gear, chance at reaper/mythic BiS gear, and chances at reaper helms, and it becomes even more frustrating. Is it really necessary to remove a raid from reaper difficulty when they look solely at the rxp/min and not the other rewards of a run? And also add that the last large content update was Disciples of Rage that was something like 8 months ago. You can run higher level quests for meaningful epic xp, but cant run lower level quests for meaningful rxp.

    If the devs actually cared about rxp/min they would look at dumb quests like Tower of Frost that give 3k rxp for a first time bonus, and take an hour to complete. Or the Dragonborn chain which gives less first time bonus that most other reaper quests despite being more difficult. However I doubt that they will because they never seem to do any meaningful action to improve player QoL or the endgame scope. They are however quick to nerf quests because they give decent rewards.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 12-07-2018 at 01:38 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Since people don't want me to become a squeaky wheel here without any ideas, my suggestion to "fix" this raid is to simply give the flensers immunity from charms. The outward raid would not have to be changed, and would still be completable. However you would need a full raid group of DPS, not just pikers, to complete. Where as before anyone not involved with tanking/healing/charming was essentially providing cannon fodder and piker status to the raid, they would need to start pulling their weight and meaningfully contribute to the success of the raid. Casters would still be important CC/IK roles, and the scope of the raid would expand to require all archetypes of the game without stepping on any one class's toes.

    If SSG wants to actually reward player's skill/teamwork then they would see that this raid should not have been taken off reaper status as it was a good payout once every 3 days, but still took a lot of coordination. Much more so than your regular rxp farms of other quests that you can throw together in a couple minutes. However if they don't, I cant help but see this as for what it is, punishing player ingenuity and skill by removing rewards that they deemed too beneficial for players, despite the overwhelming evidence that shows it is hardly alone, and that they themselves want to reward player skill.

    Any dev that reads that and still thinks that removing reaper from this raid was the right thing to do is hurting DDO.

    The first solution that comes to mind (removing reaper difficulty in this instance) isn't always the best solution. Being able to admit that there might be better ways of doing things is also a quality that seems to often be lacking from SSG. I know it's just a game, so I'm not trying to take it too seriously, but you devs need to do the same thing. Just because at some point in time you said "we're doing it this way!", doesn't mean you can't change things again in the future. If you open issues like this up to player suggestions, I'm sure you will have solutions that everyone is happy with in short order, as opposed to the ****ed off players on the forums reacting to stealth nerfs.
    Stratis on Khyber

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  5. #45
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    I don't think closing Leg Hound on reaper was a good decision for the reasons laid out so well in this thread.

    At this point it would be good to have a developer chime in with an explanation. Perhaps there is something not immediately apparent going on here, like an exploit or other problem. I suspect that is not the case, but it would be good to have that ruled out.

    This is another one of those issues where communication is important, for the sake of avoiding a situation where we jump to a conclusion, or alternatively for taking ownership of an unpopular decision and explaining the reasons behind it.

    Lack of engagement is the worst way to handle it. SSG needs to be able to explain stuff like this, and reconsider if the reasons for it don't stand up in the cold light of day.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 12-07-2018 at 06:35 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  6. #46
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    Ironically, the completion times Lynnabel was quoting for balancing the ToF drop rate on LHoX were likely taken from the fastest r10 runs recorded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    LHoX is the shortest raid by a significant margin, often taking less than five minutes to complete. As such, it awards less Threads of Fate.
    Less than five minutes is ridiculously fast, and I don't see doing that on elite any time soon without the reaper charm mechanics (could be wrong though). So with this change paired with the low ToF return, they have both made the raid worthless for the few endgame guilds who could farm it for rxp, and for everyone else who would just want to run it for threads. It'll basically be back to the odd rune arm farm every once in a while when somebody wants to gear their Artificer.
    So, we finally got around to running LE LHoX because lolz. FWIW we can run R1 Strahd in sub 20 minutes for 3x the ToF and actually good raid loot.


  7. #47
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    PUG LHOX EE 20-22 mins. => 7

    The ToF rates are just absurdly insane for this.
    20*.67 => ~13-14. my suggestion, 3 EE runs definitely worth 50 ToF here....

    KorKaza raid part 1 also needs a huge bump, it is extremely miscalculated. PUG times on LH 60-65mins.
    Last edited by janave; 12-10-2018 at 04:25 AM.
    Which house? Share plz!

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