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Thread: Reaper LHoX

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    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Default Reaper LHoX

    So, I know this probably only affects a small portion of the end game population. But for those who do run LHoX for rxp every now and then, LHoX is no longer a reaperable raid.

    This was not put out in the release notes due to an oversight by the devs. And I am quite curious for their reasoning for doing so. There’s roughly a few reasons I imagine for these changes, all of which bring up the question of, “if this, then why not fix the larger issue?”

    Before u41 LHoX was a rather decent rxp run, with a skilled group taking roughly 5-7 minutes to complete an r10 run. In fact our motto of the raid was, “you fail in 1-4, complete in 4-7, and fail past 7.” This does however overlook the fact that it can be extremely tricky, and failure, including multiple failures is not uncommon. (The most failures we had before a completion once was 7 in a row). I imagine the rxp/per min of a successful run is part of the reasoning behind the change. A successful run with an epic reaper first time bonus + sov pot was 17k rxp, and about 6k without.

    The second reason that I imagine for this change is that high reaper is actually easier due to the nature of charms in high skull reaper. Two charmed Spawn of Xzzyzz were able to kill the raid boss in less than a minute. To get the Control Stones groups would simply charm a single flenser who could kill would kill a mind flayer in approximately 5 hits. This rather disproportionate mob dps compared to player DPS is what made the run a) possible, and b) quick

    Now these two points bring serious questions of hypocrisy to my mind. To address the first point, while R10 LHoX may have been the fastest rxp/min possible, it wasn’t necessarily the most reliable, and it wasn’t that far ahead of other quests. And it was one of the only rxp runs that put you on a 3 day timer. Unless you were willing to swallow a Leg Raid Timer you couldn’t farm it. There are also other rather easy/good rxp/min quests that are farmable and can get close to, and even in some cases rival R10 LHoX for rxp per minute.

    The second point brings the question of, “if this raid is too easy, then why not fix the mechanic instead of targeting specific quests/raids?” This quest on r10 was only possible because of the highly disproportionate charmed mob dps compared to player dps. While this quest may have been the peak of using charms to complete a quest, it is by far not the only quest. A charmed mob can kill a red named boss far far faster than most regular and competent high skull reaper groups can manage. If this quest was broken because charms are currently broken, I would ask the devs to stop reducing the end game even more and instead focus on the actual problems in the game that minimize player skill/power. If they want to prevent people from soloing/piking through this raid, then drop the DPS of the charmed flenser’s to hit relative to an actual player. That way people would actually have to dps down the mind flayers rather than just let a single charmed flenser do it in 3 hits.

    Finally, if this was done to prevent people from farming Threads of Fate then I feel like ssg is just throwing away money. I’m sure there are people that would drop a couple thousand DDO points to farm rxp/ToF. And if they seriously want to do that, let them. In 2 weeks most end game raiding guilds are going to have so many threads of fate that they won’t know what to do with them. (I currently have 2500 hit runes after I bought 5 baba items for my newly made alt). If people just simply have to get ahead of the curve by 2 weeks, then let them. They will support the game, and it won’t affect other players in the slightest.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 12-06-2018 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Unless there is exploits being used to complete it I see no reason to lock LHoX from reaper either, it already has a 3 day timer per completion so not farm able either. But as there was no notes it possibly could just be a bug due to all the raid changes.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    Unless there is exploits being used to complete it I see no reason to lock LHoX from reaper either, it already has a 3 day timer per completion so not farm able either. But as there was no notes it possibly could just be a bug due to all the raid changes.
    Steel confirmed in the DDO community discord channel that the change was intentional, but that the devs had forgotten to put it in the release notes when a member asked about it.

    As for exploits I don’t know any that were used. Charms seem to be WAI in the current meta, and groups would send the tank/healers center to keep boss/puppy agro and everyone else would go left while and provide cannon fodder to protect the caster who would charm a render to kill the flayers. Once you killed enough flayers for the stones you would go center and charm the puppies to complete the raid. Other than the dubious nature of charms in general, there was no exploits.

    This U41 Christmas time update has really turned into the Krampus update it seems.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 12-06-2018 at 12:03 PM.

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    Community Member Strambotica's Avatar
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    What, No Reaper LHoX?

    the idea was to incourage the raids on end game. Not that people stop to run them.

    If no reaper... ill not run that again, no point. no chance for reaper gear... Not even for Threads of Fate (that for be short, im asumming a very small amount of ToF)

  5. #5
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    After some more insight from Cordovan in the community discord, it appears that this change was made because of the rxp/min ratio of the raid.

    At this point I would question the Dev's knowledge on what skilled and competent groups can do in reaper. LHoX was at the top, but not alone in its roughly 2.5k rxp/min. This doesn't include the possibility of failure, the raid is notoriously tricky and can be easily failed even with a knowledgeable group and a good game plan. With some careful tactics and skill there were certainly other quests that rivaled or could even possibly surpass the rxp/min that was possible in LHoX, and retain farmability due to not being raids

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    Community Member FuryFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strambotica View Post
    What, No Reaper LHoX?

    the idea was to incourage the raids on end game. Not that people stop to run them.

    If no reaper... ill not run that again, no point. no chance for reaper gear... Not even for Threads of Fate (that for be short, im asumming a very small amount of ToF)
    Ironically, the completion times Lynnabel was quoting for balancing the ToF drop rate on LHoX were likely taken from the fastest r10 runs recorded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    LHoX is the shortest raid by a significant margin, often taking less than five minutes to complete. As such, it awards less Threads of Fate.
    Less than five minutes is ridiculously fast, and I don't see doing that on elite any time soon without the reaper charm mechanics (could be wrong though). So with this change paired with the low ToF return, they have both made the raid worthless for the few endgame guilds who could farm it for rxp, and for everyone else who would just want to run it for threads. It'll basically be back to the odd rune arm farm every once in a while when somebody wants to gear their Artificer.


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    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    "We discovered that the rxp/min of this raid was too high for certain well organized groups once every 3 days. The best solution to this is to turn off reaper mode for the raid. It is not to lower the rxp/min of the raid or fix game systems which make this raid faster on reaper difficulties then it is on elite."
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    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    Ironically, the completion times Lynnabel was quoting for balancing the ToF drop rate on LHoX were likely taken from the fastest r10 runs recorded:



    Less than five minutes is ridiculously fast, and I don't see doing that on elite any time soon without the reaper charm mechanics (could be wrong though). So with this change paired with the low ToF return, they have both made the raid worthless for the few endgame guilds who could farm it for rxp, and for everyone else who would just want to run it for threads. It'll basically be back to the odd rune arm farm every once in a while when somebody wants to gear their Artificer.
    R10 was an average of 6-7 minute completion, usually pushing the envelop on the time limit for the mobs to come center. We failed many a time because we got overwhelmed with mobs in the center. Sad that it will probably become a dead raid if this stays the course due to the low ToF count now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    After some more insight from Cordovan in the community discord, it appears that this change was made because of the rxp/min ratio of the raid.

    At this point I would question the Dev's knowledge on what skilled and competent groups can do in reaper. LHoX was at the top, but not alone in its roughly 2.5k rxp/min. This doesn't include the possibility of failure, the raid is notoriously tricky and can be easily failed even with a knowledgeable group and a good game plan. With some careful tactics and skill there were certainly other quests that rivaled or could even possibly surpass the rxp/min that was possible in LHoX, and retain farmability due to not being raids
    Well they didnt consider all the failed raids before the good one. Usually is 2 , 3 at r10
    The thred of fate drop is the same of le so i dont see why change it

    Now wont be run ehm...
    I didnt understand what they have changed..
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryFlash View Post
    Ironically, the completion times Lynnabel was quoting for balancing the ToF drop rate on LHoX were likely taken from the fastest r10 runs recorded:



    Less than five minutes is ridiculously fast, and I don't see doing that on elite any time soon without the reaper charm mechanics (could be wrong though). So with this change paired with the low ToF return, they have both made the raid worthless for the few endgame guilds who could farm it for rxp, and for everyone else who would just want to run it for threads. It'll basically be back to the odd rune arm farm every once in a while when somebody wants to gear their Artificer.
    LHoX completion time is gated by the amount of damage the puppies put out relative to Xyzzy's health. On hard, the pups can take Xyzzy to vulnerable without needing to collect more stones, but still it takes more five minutes. On elite, it takes another round of stones, so it's far more than 5 minutes for a completion as it seems like the respawns of the mind flayers are on a timer. The only way to make the raid go faster is if the pups start hitting harder wile Xyzzy's overall hitpoints stays stagnant. Guess what reaper does....

    So now there's no reaper, and the entire foundation over having **** drop rates blows up.

    It really shouldn't matter how long it takes to complete the raid, as long as it requires the same level of teamwork, coordination, gearing, or whatever gating metric you want to use. The reality is that any raid can be completed at most 1 time per 3 days for no real dollars spent, and at most 8 times in 7 days for loot before you hit chest ransack. If your group/guild is looking to ransack a raid, whether the raid takes 5 minutes or 45 minutes, you can manage to get 1 completion done in 3 days, or 8 completions done in 7 days (if you're willing to buy timers).

  11. #11
    Community Member Strambotica's Avatar
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    Those 2-3 failed run before the 6-7min completion in R10 is for the organized guild, with a plan and skills.

    In a pug that could be 4-9 failure to try to complete on R5.

    im not in a big guild, so i depend on the LFM.

    And i find funny that they "discovered" the rpx/min of the raid. But didnt considered that you need fast dps and good CC for this one, so many reaper points... mmm at least 42 (at least for a caster) ¿?. and more to have some survavility.

    Edit: The next thing is going to be to close Amber, then Madness... o why not all the reaper dif. LOL.
    Last edited by Strambotica; 12-06-2018 at 02:12 PM.

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    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strambotica View Post
    Edit: The next thing is going to be to close Amber, then Madness... o why not all the reaper dif. LOL.
    Basically how it feels. They increased first time bonus to encourage people to run at cap, but now they feel like its too much and want to limit endgame play to only quests that meet their arbitrary stamp of approval for difficulty and xp/min. Worse yet they don’t demonstrate an understanding of what is and isn’t good rxp per minute.
    Last edited by Shadow_Jumper; 12-06-2018 at 02:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    "We discovered that the rxp/min of this raid was too high for certain well organized groups once every 3 days. The best solution to this is to turn off reaper mode for the raid. It is not to lower the rxp/min of the raid or fix game systems which make this raid faster on reaper difficulties then it is on elite."
    ::looks over your shoulder::

    that's a pretty nice thing you have there.......*yoink*

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    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    Well, it's been said before. They are fast to study reaper legendary hox but don't care to fix bugs in the loot that drops in it. They spend time to 'update' old loot but no time to fix bugs in it. Dethek runeshield and machinations of madness I'm looking at you.

    Then they wonder why players only take note of the bad changes and not the good ones
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoustakas View Post
    Dethek runeshield
    This properly gives its +2[W] as of U41, sorry about not getting that into the release notes. Would you mind elaborating as to what you think is broken with Machinations of Madness?
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 12-06-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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    Community Member Fallout47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    "We discovered that the rxp/min of this raid was too high for certain well organized groups once every 3 days. The best solution to this is to turn off reaper mode for the raid. It is not to lower the rxp/min of the raid or fix game systems which make this raid faster on reaper difficulties then it is on elite."
    Please attribute this quote.
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    The issue was not LHoX, it’s first time bonuses in general. During the BB weekend I made several hundred thousand rxp in one day; and this was not from farming hound repeatedly. Fact is that SSG doesn’t know what reaper should be, r10 was supposed to be impossible now r10 is the daily xp farm.

    If we’re disabling quests because they’re to easy to complete on r10 then the new Lost at Sea quest should be disabled for reaper. It’s stupidly easy to complete, in fact I dare say it’s easier to complete on r10 than most quests were when Epic Elite was first introduced.

    This is the paradox that we’re now in, when the developers want to make something truly challenging they need to make every hit a 1-shot, but then these forums complain that they’re getting killed and the developers buff gear, HP, and then make easier quests so people can run the highest difficulty.

    To complete the paradox loop the developers are considering making r15 a thing; so we are now back to square one when reaper was first released, getting 1-shot.
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    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    This properly gives its +2[W] as of U41, sorry about not getting that into the release notes. Would you mind elaborating as to what you think is broken with Machinations of Madness?
    a) That is amazing. I apologise, let me eat my hat. *eats his hat*

    b) Machination of madness gave the wrong type of untyped spellpower. It would affect it's own shot but not say 'ruin' or 'greater ruin' whereas the abbot runearm would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus2011 View Post
    The issue was not LHoX, it’s first time bonuses in general. During the BB weekend I made several hundred thousand rxp in one day; and this was not from farming hound repeatedly. Fact is that SSG doesn’t know what reaper should be, r10 was supposed to be impossible now r10 is the daily xp farm.

    If we’re disabling quests because they’re to easy to complete on r10 then the new Lost at Sea quest should be disabled for reaper. It’s stupidly easy to complete, in fact I dare say it’s easier to complete on r10 than most quests were when Epic Elite was first introduced.

    This is the paradox that we’re now in, when the developers want to make something truly challenging they need to make every hit a 1-shot, but then these forums complain that they’re getting killed and the developers buff gear, HP, and then make easier quests so people can run the highest difficulty.

    To complete the paradox loop the developers are considering making r15 a thing; so we are now back to square one when reaper was first released, getting 1-shot.
    I have the fix for you takeoff all your gear reset your reaper points to zero don't play meta builds so no more monk no more uber completionest cc/instakill casters no more assassin's no more tempest. If that don't work for you just try rolling a brand new character and I mean the whole guild not just one or two people and see how easy R10 is. If all else fails we can all go outside and play ha ha ha Ha ha ha.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zites View Post
    I have the fix for you takeoff all your gear reset your reaper points to zero don't play meta builds so no more monk no more uber completionest cc/instakill casters no more assassin's no more tempest. If that don't work for you just try rolling a brand new character and I mean the whole guild not just one or two people and see how easy R10 is. If all else fails we can all go outside and play ha ha ha Ha ha ha.....
    You’re basically saying if you want a challenge then make the gimpiest character possible and then try. Asking players to hamstring themselves never really works tho, remember the idea of using Rose Colored Goggles to challenge yourself in r10? Yea that never really took off.
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