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  1. #1
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    Default My thoughts on the bard song pass

    I've been looking forward to a song pass for quite a while. Here are my initial thoughts after running several groups and raids on my spellsinger after the update hit.

    Good:
    • Much longer duration on inspiration, and most* buffs tied to your always on aura or single target inspiration, means you use fewer songs for buffing, leaving more for soothing song, fascinate, rebuffing people who died, etc. This also means you spend less time singing, and more time doing whatever else you built for
    • Very large aoe on aura
    • Aura giving 20/cha score/2x cha score temp hp every 10 sec, and sustaining song healing on everyone make active healing *much* easier
    • This was true to some extent before, but even more so now: sp regen and sp discount on all casters means that you often get to shrines with every caster having over half sp left. I commented at one point in baba (being 1 of 2 primary healers) that the only reason I was resting, was so I could sing my songs all over again, because everyone *else* was resting.
    • Sustaining song on-applying cure and dot both hit for positive/negative/repair (with spellsinger cores)
    • Good hope and (greater) heroism now stack with inspire courage
    • Songs that used to be ally only can now also hit yourself, meaning you can buff your own competence
    • Spellsinger cores and songs increasing song duration
    • Arcane aid/spell pen. My spellsinger used to take spell pen. Now that arcane aid is tied to inspiration (which you can sing to yourself), there's almost no reason to take the self spell pen option, as you can now give +3 spell pen to yourself and the entire party.


    Bad:
    • *Gh song from warchanter is still a separate aoe song, and it has a much shorter duration, less than half the duration of my single target inspiration (I think its duration scales much differently than inspiration, or most effects that add effective bard levels don't affect it). Either add it to aura or to inspiration.
    • Inspiration has a much shorter range than it used to, making buffing widely separated party members or on the run particularly difficult
    • Inspiration still takes too long to sing, and has too long a cooldown for convenient party buffing, especially in raids. Either make it aoe and subtract a song use per party member, or *significantly* reduce the cooldown and song animation time. They should last no more than 1-2 seconds each (buffing a raid could then take less than half a minute, rather than well over a minute, particularly if you also cast buff spells). Nobody wants to sit around and wait for you to finish singing everyone a song
    • There are several quests and raids where you have to split the party. It would be nice if you could have the option of singing an aoe buff song so people can keep the benefit of your ballad while they're not near you
    • Epic elyd edge. It used to be a swap on item for a few songs, then swap back to your real weapon. Now inspiring echoes reduces the time it takes for your songs to regen, which means it does nothing if you don't keep it equipped. No thanks. Maybe have it make your inspiration aoe but use up several songs (3-6, 1 per party member, or 3-6 in party, 6-12 in raids?)
    • Soothing song (aoe heal that all bards get for free at bard 8) doesn't heal for negative/repair on pm/robots with spellsinger cores, unlike sustaining song
    • Sustaining song gets overridden by renewal (and possibly other hp regen effects, haven't tested much)
    • Soothing song takes way too long to sing
    • As a spellsinger, this didn't hurt me so much, but without a heavy investment into spellsinger, inspiration won't last nearly as long (yes, I know I had this on the good side too). All told, the spellsinger cores and songs can more or less double your song length.
    • Lingering songs (spellsinger t1) used to be pretty significant, and scaled with bard level. Now it gives 2/4/6 extra effective bard levels (1/2/3 extra minutes), which is nice on a low level bard, but pitiful on mid-high level bards. I'd make the benefit 3/6/9 effective bard levels, doubled in epics. This would go a long way to mitigate the previous point, as with 4 points in spellsinger you could add 5/9.5 minutes to your inspiration in heroics/epics.
    • Was also true before, but unless they focus on different songs (ie warchanter heavy vs spellsinger heavy), having more than 1 bard in party doesn't add much, if anything, song-wise.
    • Fascinate (say it with me now) takes too long to sing.
    • Enthrallment. Why is this separate from fascinate. Spellsinger has 5 different enhancements that modify your fascinate, and this one ability that's sorta like fascinate, but doesn't benefit from any of those other enhancements. Also, I haven't touched this one in years, but I'm pretty sure it also (deep breath) takes too long to sing


    Overall, I'm happy with the changes, but I'd be happier with some more changes .

    I'll probably remember/think of more later, but I'm sleepy. Too many raids. On the plus side, I can now trade in 2 old raid items with threads of fate .
    Last edited by peng; 12-06-2018 at 08:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member NabeGewell's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input, most of what you mentioned confirmed that my future tr bard build won't be raiding much. Funny and frustrating how the stuff mentioned as feedback in the "First look: bard changes" thread was ignored and came back unchanged exactly as annoying predicted by most. Also noticed you mentioned nearly double the bad observations in comparison to good ones but say that you're overall hapy with changes.

    So much for:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    ~
    GOALS:

    • Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard
    • Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party
    • Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them
    • Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard
    • Help reduce strain on game performance by cleaning up the auras to play a lot nicer in a group
    • Clean up text inconsistencies and clear out bugs behind the scenes to make it easier to have future items/abilities affect Bard songs

    ~
    More like:



    By the way, curious to know how may bard levels you have, what destiny, what song duration prolonging enhancements you have on your bard and how long do your songs last as a result?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by NabeGewell View Post
    Thanks for the input, most of what you mentioned confirmed that my future tr bard build won't be raiding much. Funny and frustrating how the stuff mentioned as feedback in the "First look: bard changes" thread was ignored and came back unchanged exactly as annoying predicted by most. Also noticed you mentioned nearly double the bad observations in comparison to good ones but say that you're overall hapy with changes.

    By the way, curious to know how may bard levels you have, what destiny, what song duration prolonging enhancements you have on your bard and how long do your songs last as a result?
    There were more bad observations, but most of those were true before the pass. The changes are mostly good, other than gh song duration nerf and it not being added to ballad or inspiration, and the inspiration range nerf, which lynnabel said was a bug and will be fixed.

    Level 20 bard, exalted for general questing/soloing and cc/healing in party, sentinel for raid healing (I'm squishy), or whatever destiny for karma farming. Inspiration lasts 25 minutes, gh song lasts 11.

    Effective bard level breakdown:
    • 20 bard levels
    • 6 epic destiny feat lasting inspiration
    • 8 spellsinger cores (1 per core +2 more for virtuoso)
    • 1 spellsong trance
    • 1 arcane might
    • 1 arcane aid
    • 1 sustaining song
    • 1 spell song vigor
    • 39 total

    I think I'm missing a level somewhere, as that adds up to 24.5 minutes when you add the base 5 minutes.

    Gh song description says it lasts 1 minute + 30 sec per caster level. It doesn't change with arcane might or being in arcane destiny except fatesinger. Aria and echoes stance boost it, but by non-30 second increments. More testing later.

  4. #4
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    I kind of like that a few songs take an uncomfortable duration to sing - nothing feels more like being uniquely a bard than dancing around in active combat trying to avoid being hit, staying close enough to monsters for fascinate or close enough to party members for whatever buff while that long animation plays.

    Having to click through 12 raid group members in order and play that long animation then not have anything to do that feels like being a bard until the next shrine? that's all the boring and more from before plus a new pile of meh. I think the bardic inspiration should have been a short duration AOE instead of a ridiculously long duration single target.

    Overall my first impressions after logging in to my level 30 bard (warchanter capstone and up to sustaining song in spellsinger)? "Bleh, everything is broken, more songs to sing than before (all party members individually instead of AOE, all fatesinger + warchanter songs still separate), song durations all shorter that aren't part of bardic inspiration, seems like nothing works properly, logging out again will revisit that character after next patch perhaps, dead to me until then."
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  5. #5
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    The split between the ballard and inspiration is a bad one, imo. Cause I have to sing inspiration on every partymember because every class wants to have some of the songs. arcane want the arcane ones and melees/ranged want the other ones .... Bye bye convinience. There is no big difference in buffing time before and after the changes.
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  6. #6
    Community Member NabeGewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peng View Post
    There were more bad observations, but most of those were true before the pass. The changes are mostly good, other than gh song duration nerf and it not being added to ballad or inspiration, and the inspiration range nerf, which lynnabel said was a bug and will be fixed.

    Level 20 bard, exalted for general questing/soloing and cc/healing in party, sentinel for raid healing (I'm squishy), or whatever destiny for karma farming. Inspiration lasts 25 minutes, gh song lasts 11.

    Effective bard level breakdown:
    • 20 bard levels
    • 6 epic destiny feat lasting inspiration
    • 8 spellsinger cores (1 per core +2 more for virtuoso)
    • 1 spellsong trance
    • 1 arcane might
    • 1 arcane aid
    • 1 sustaining song
    • 1 spell song vigor
    • 39 total

    I think I'm missing a level somewhere, as that adds up to 24.5 minutes when you add the base 5 minutes.

    Gh song description says it lasts 1 minute + 30 sec per caster level. It doesn't change with arcane might or being in arcane destiny except fatesinger. Aria and echoes stance boost it, but by non-30 second increments. More testing later.
    Ty for the reference.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    My main is currently a Swashbuckler at cap, and I haven't invested in either Warchanter (well just 1 AP for a Con point) or Spellsinger, and my initial thoughts on the bard song pass is that I like it.

    Previously, my songs such as Inspire Courage, wouldn't stack with Greater Heroism and as a result they simply weren't worth singing unless you had beholders coming up. I even thought Inspire Excellence was only marginally worth singing, and I haven't had that feat for a couple of lives now. With the update, even with only the base bard songs, it's nice that they stack and are thus worth singing. Essentially they are an extra bonus I didn't have before. They also aren't so terribly consequential that if someone doesn't get their song it's not going to be the end of the world. What's really awesome is that Inspire Excellence is part of your Ballad now and essentially by taking this feat you have +2 to all of your stats, and anyone coming near you also gets this bonus. That's pretty cool.

    For the OP, regarding fascinate I think given how powerful this is I don't have a problem with it taking a little time to sing. The trick to fascinate is to start singing it before you get to the mobs, or circle kite if they are already nearby. As for Enthrallment, I'm not sure if you tested this, but the effect goes off halfway through your song, not at the end. This is actually the best part of Enthrallment. I don't understand why this isn't mentioned in the description or the tool tip. I also don't understand why the Spellsinger cores don't work on it. If you've invested the APs into it, and the cores, it should work.
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  8. #8
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    This was a good idea that didn't quite work. The good thing is that the buff songs seem to last forever. However, it would have been nice to have to only sing one song for the party instead of to each party member. I agree with OP that this takes way too long ... especially since I now have to do it for each person. And none of this has cut down the time it takes to buff a party. I'd also liked to have kept Sustaining Song completely separate and AOE because I used to do that one in the middle of fights - for the entire party. The new Soothing Song is really a mass cure light - but it takes way too long.

    I think I'd rather see mass blur, mass FOM, and mass GH. That's what would cut down on buff time.

  9. #9
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    Completely agree on the aggravation of still having to sing inspirationally 1 time for each party member. Like you mentioned, can we at least have it take multiple songgs away and maybe twice as long to sing?

  10. #10
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    Yay, they added gh song to ballad.
    Unfortunately, now I stutter step every 10 sec when gh gets reapplied.

  11. #11
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    my main beef with the bard update is that they didn't make the fatesinger songs scale their duration with song duration, so you have to re-apply inspiration every 4 minutes
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by peng View Post
    Yay, they added gh song to ballad.
    Unfortunately, now I stutter step every 10 sec when gh gets reapplied.
    Do you have Greater Heroism from another source (such as gear)? Internally, we've been able to change the effect's magnitude to prevent a lot of visual effect collision, but I'm curious if your framerate drop is a result of something else that I should be watching out for.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Do you have Greater Heroism from another source (such as gear)? Internally, we've been able to change the effect's magnitude to prevent a lot of visual effect collision, but I'm curious if your framerate drop is a result of something else that I should be watching out for.
    If you manage to fix this it will prob break the current working of dazed like effects, might even break deception.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    If you manage to fix this it will prob break the current working of dazed like effects, might even break deception.
    How so?
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  15. #15
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    How so?
    I think LightBear was being facetious.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Do you have Greater Heroism from another source (such as gear)? Internally, we've been able to change the effect's magnitude to prevent a lot of visual effect collision, but I'm curious if your framerate drop is a result of something else that I should be watching out for.
    I get the same effect of stuttering, I notice I get this when the umd skill values change. Anytime I receive a debuff from an enemy that lowers skills, the game would drop to 0-1 fps. I've adjusted my video setting to see if that changes anything but still received the loss of fps. Tried dx9, dx10, and dx11 with settings varying from min to max.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Do you have Greater Heroism from another source (such as gear)? Internally, we've been able to change the effect's magnitude to prevent a lot of visual effect collision, but I'm curious if your framerate drop is a result of something else that I should be watching out for.
    No (greater) heroism on gear, no phiarlan ship buff. It's not the visual gh symbol appearing over my head (which I've seen if I do hit the phiarlan buff). It's just a fraction of a second of lag every 10 seconds.

    Just did some tests. I have 2 epic bards with inspire excellence and gh song, and a heroic bard on an alt account with gh song (what can I say, I like bard). The heroic bard didn't get the lag, even when partied with the epic bards. If I reset the epic bards' enhancements (so no gh song, but yes inspire excellence), I still got the microlag, though *maybe* very slightly less (kinda hard to measure if one fraction of a second is smaller than another). Again, the bards that have the inspire excellence feat and epic destinies (different destinies) get microlag, but the heroic bard in party with them, receiving the same aura buffs, does not. Ddo, I love ya, but you confuse me sometimes.

    Now to redo my enhancements so I can take advantage of bonus xp days...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by peng View Post
    No (greater) heroism on gear, no phiarlan ship buff. It's not the visual gh symbol appearing over my head (which I've seen if I do hit the phiarlan buff). It's just a fraction of a second of lag every 10 seconds.

    Just did some tests. I have 2 epic bards with inspire excellence and gh song, and a heroic bard on an alt account with gh song (what can I say, I like bard). The heroic bard didn't get the lag, even when partied with the epic bards. If I reset the epic bards' enhancements (so no gh song, but yes inspire excellence), I still got the microlag, though *maybe* very slightly less (kinda hard to measure if one fraction of a second is smaller than another). Again, the bards that have the inspire excellence feat and epic destinies (different destinies) get microlag, but the heroic bard in party with them, receiving the same aura buffs, does not. Ddo, I love ya, but you confuse me sometimes.

    Now to redo my enhancements so I can take advantage of bonus xp days...
    Oh, gross. I know exactly what's causing this. Thanks so much for this information, when I have something concrete to report back with I'll let you guys know!
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  19. #19
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    The split between the ballard and inspiration is a bad one, imo. Cause I have to sing inspiration on every partymember because every class wants to have some of the songs. arcane want the arcane ones and melees/ranged want the other ones .... Bye bye convinience. There is no big difference in buffing time before and after the changes.
    If only the epic elyds edge still had it's old powers of turning a single target bard song into a party song. Sadly, the epic elyds edge was changed to no longer do that. While the aura song is awesome, the targeted song (with all it's stacking effects) actually increases buffing time in raids. Used to be 9 songs to sing (separate buffs but all AoE), now it's up to 12 songs sung (all buffs at once but single target).

    However my random complaint of the hour is the sound effects of the ballad reapplying every few seconds. With one bard in the party it's bad enough, but sweet merciful **** if you have the misfortune of having more than one bard in the party! *ears bleed*

    edit: I also noticed that everyone's HP flicker when the buffs are reapplied when your bard has Inspire Excellence. I take it this is because it increases your Con by +2, but in order to reapply it it must remove it first. I haven't tested it yet, but I worry for any party member who gets knocked unconscious suddenly dying due to this reapplying (and thus removing 2 con from the unconscious ally for an instant).
    Last edited by vryxnr; 12-21-2018 at 08:41 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Oh, gross. I know exactly what's causing this. Thanks so much for this information, when I have something concrete to report back with I'll let you guys know!
    I'm thinking it's the old "UMD changes and everything needs to be recalculated" bit? Wasn't so bad with just Inspire Excellence because it's only 1 point, but then add in the Song of Heroism and that's 5 points of change...
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