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  1. #21
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrtRestave View Post

    The second is regarding Eldritch Power, which while much improved, still has the same problem as before. It's not a major issue, but I'd like to point out that it still functions in much the same way as Divine Vessel used to work and which you recently changed to be more under the player's control. I'll acknowledge that it's not quite as bad to have a 50% uptime buff operate in such a manner as it is for an instant PBAoE to do so, but it's still going to be a common situation to have to refrain from using Eldritch Strike because the next encounter will be one where you'll want to have the buff up immediately, and I don't think this is a very positive experience for a rotational ability.
    It's not 50% uptime. Eldritch Strike has a 12 second cooldown and you have to hit that 5 times (minimum 60 seconds of cooldowns) in order to get a 30 second buff. So it's a 33% uptime buff at best.

    I'd suggest reducing the cooldown of Eldritch Strike to 6 seconds.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    It's not 50% uptime. Eldritch Strike has a 12 second cooldown and you have to hit that 5 times (minimum 60 seconds of cooldowns) in order to get a 30 second buff. So it's a 33% uptime buff at best.
    Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be honest, the reduction found in the Cores is mainly meant for people running Heavy Armor builds.
    Which is very nice, having casts spells like nightshield while wearing heavy armor and tower shield often 0-o even with spell agility augment its 70% failure on my tank.

  4. #24
    Community Member MonadRebelion's Avatar
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    This is one of my favorite playstyles and these changes bring a tear to my eye. Looks really cool. The only thing I'd change is the doublestrike bonuses. Why not make them +2% rather than +1%?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    This is one of my favorite playstyles and these changes bring a tear to my eye. Looks really cool. The only thing I'd change is the doublestrike bonuses. Why not make them +2% rather than +1%?
    +1 aye these change to the tree look very nice.

    Given that its not uncommon to gain 70% double strike at end game or more this seems reasonable.

  6. #26
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    Re. Force's Edge.

    Seems like interrupting your attack sequence with a spell cast for a 12 second threat range increase is likely to cause a lower damage output, not higher. I am more than happy to be wrong, this is just a gut feeling.

    Is it likely to be much actual help? What am I missing?

  7. #27
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    The main problem with an Elf (1e) or a Fighter/Mage (AD&D through 3.5) or an Eldritch Knight (DDO) has always been the same: The game encourages and rewards specialization, and so a half-Wizard half-Fighter will has never been half as good as a Wizard or half as good as a Fighter, and so was mostly an exercise in a flavor build.

    The solution should look like a light or medium armored, one handed weapon user (allowing for an orb or a buckler off-hand), whose spells focus far more on a subtle use of magic over the blasting and death spells of most Wizards. It uses distractions, debuffs and interrupts (short duration stuns, slow effects, casting prevention, the existing Eldritch Tempest, etc.) far than pure spell casting damage, although they will of course be able to cast damaging and other spells from their Wizard class levels. That would make for a flavorful and also effective and unique fighting style with a lot of flair that wouldn't be able to out-fight a pure Fighter or out cast a pure Wizard but using their unique blending of melee and magic use would still have a chance to defeat either.

    The problem with this, is that SSG and Turbine before it have said several times that making new spells is a Hard Thing™. If they don't get off the pot and just do it already, the new Eldritch Knight tree will never serve well enough alone to make it a success as an actual hybrid class instead of a cobbled together jigsaw mess of Fighter and Wizard. It would take some tree-specific spells to do that. The effort that was made to create the 7(really 4, all the level 1 spells are just the same spell with a different element damage) new spells previewed in the livestream could have been used instead to make Eldritch Knight play in a unique and effective way. But I guess I kind of understand that you're trying to enhance all Arcane casters and not just Eldritch Knights. I just find it a bit sad that you've stolen the potential thunder that Eldritch Knight could have had by blending in those disparate goals by taking those development hours away from the Eldritch Knight and applying them to general use spells.

    ===

    Cores:
    Core 1: Eldritch Strike should not be a cleave attack. Brute cleaving is the antithesis of the flair and finesse of this combatant, which is far more comparable to single weapon fighting or the use of weapon finesse.

    Core 3: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat. - Considering how you have gutted the value of Quick Draw, I can only laugh: Hahahahahaha!

    Tier 4:
    Knight's Transformation - The short range spell casting limitation plays well with the Eldritch Knight I have outlined above.

    Tier 5:
    Knight's Magic - Knight Controller - This sort of approaches the concept. The class as I envision it would not be a primary charmer but would have some decent enchantment options for fulfilling the distract/trick/slow/debuff/stun role. You guys can do this without having it be a potential charmer tree by building the right spell effects into the tree with the DC bonus already factored in to them.
    Eldritch Tempest - This short term AOE knockdown ability plays well with the Eldritch Knight that I envision. But then all you did was increase the W damage and reduce the AP cost. This would be a worthwhile T5, if it only had a decent tree to support the decision to taking a T5 in this tree over any other.


    Over all what I mostly see is a lot of repetitions of "+X to Spell/Universal Power" and "+melee damage" and very little that would make the build play in any kind of a unique way. The best grade I can give your new tree is a 'C' for finally getting around the the pass on the poor Eldritch Knight tree, and a lot of disappointment for the plentiful opportunities you had for making players who invest in the tree enjoy a unique play style that isn't just more of the same "Let's stack up some spell power and melee power and call it a day."

    ===

    New Spells. Wow, 3 new spells! And yes I can count, I see the 7 new spell names, but 4 of the 1st level spells and two of the 9th level spells are the exact same spell with just a different elemental damage type, and so just a copy-paste difference. So it's 3 new spells. And it's only 1 level 1 and 2 level 9 spells, with nothing filling in the gaps in all of the spell levels in between other than the concomitant boosting the power level of those spells. Still, this is fairly impressive given what has seemed to be a very large amount of inertia attached to the entire concept of creating a new spell. Bravo, and more of the same, please.

    ===

    I'm happy to hear that Archmage and Pale Master and Savants are on the radar. More spells, please, and try not to make them common spells and focus on the specific trees this time.

    ===

    Questions:

    10:55 Why does Steelstar think that the AC bonus from Improved Mage Armor is "Pretty ridiculous?" Every build that I've seen using this for AC is a tanking build using both Fighter and Paladin levels, and you guys specifically excluded those builds from gaining any benefit from Epic Defensive Fighting. And you have refused to comment on why. So please stop dropping inflammatory comments into your livestreams and also refusing to comment on your reasons for making these inflammatory comments. All that does is to foment discontent amongst your customers. Here is your opportunity to make your design decisions public at last.

    34:20 Neither Flame Arrow nor Conjure Arrows are gathered by quivers. And at least Flame Arrows should be, since Conjure Arrows are returning and quiver use is fairly irrelevant. The state of quivers is pretty terrible at this time, and deserves a better response than "I'd have to actually look at how that is structured." I guess that wasn't really a question, but it was in response to a livestream question.
    Last edited by Niminae; 11-14-2018 at 03:40 PM.
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    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  8. #28
    Community Member Morroiel's Avatar
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    Post Missing the mark on why hybrid builds fail in ddo

    First off, I'd like to say that this looks like fairly good changes for a start, and if they don't change anymore at least it won't be a completely trap option for the new player anymore (I've heard tales of woe of many first time players coming from dnd 5e trying to create their gish).

    However, I'd like to examine why hybrid builds fail in ddo (I can think of only a handful of hybrid builds that have been successful in entire history of ddo post levelcap 20; as of now, there are none that are viable).

    What do I define as a hybrid build: a build that tries to combine two or more offensive combat styles on a single build (melee + ranged, melee + off casting, ranged + off casting, etc.).

    There are a few reasons why builds like this fail, historically in ddo:

    • Gearing requirements - this is probably one of the most egregious problems at the moment. The number of effects on gear has skyrocketed in terms of what you need to minmax a style since the levelcap was at 20. The last few gearing/loot passes we've had has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of effects. Between melee power, doublestrike, deadly, insightful deadly, sneak attack, insightful sneak attack, insightful doublestrike, armor piercing, accuracy, ability score increases, etc. and the list just keeps on going on and on, you have major problem fitting in all the effects into a single styled build like assassin much less a hybrid build. Now you add on to the fact that you only get one sentient weapon which means you are going to be down some effects in both styles or down a lot of effects in one style - this can't be overlooked.
    • Multiplication by 2 of requirements - when you have a hybrid build the gearing requirements, feat requirements, etc. are drastically increased (in most cases roughly multiplied by a factor of 2). If the gearing requirements weren't bad enough, try fitting in the feats you need, as well as, the destiny and scion feats to maintain two of spell power + dcs, melee power, and ranged power. Not to mention the fact that most builds (especially pure builds) have access to at most one hybrid tree. Let's take a look at sorc: savant + EK or EK + universal are really your only options. Let's take a look at ranger: DWS (hybrid tree) + AA or DWS + Tempest. You are also constrained in your enhancements that you use.
    • Lack of a good hybrid epic destiny (LD at one point in time was good enough for a few melee + ranged builds to exist using old mechanics). The problem is that LD (and on a few builds FotW) are so far ahead of their counterparts that you can't really function as a melee without being in one of those two destinies (and in most cases its LD). But LD provides absolutely no benefit to your spellpower, dcs, etc. For a hybrid build your best bet probably lies with Divine Crusader, a destiny that is woefully underpowered for non-magical dps compared to LD as well as plagued with quite a few build breaking bugs. If you were to optimize for spell casting you'd either go with exalted angel, shiradi, or DI - of which none of them provide meaningful boosts to your melee ability. Worse to this you have to worry about twists of fate, as you get the same number of fate points, have access to the same number of fate slots, meaning you will end up at a deficit on something. This means that you are effectively hamstrung and unable to pick a viable ED as there are none for this hybrid combat style.
    • Lack of Synergy - there just hasn't been any abilities or design work that has gone into making synergy in the combat styles to eliminate any of the other problems detailed in this post. For instance, including an ability which modulated your spellpower by a function of your melee power, would go a long way in eliminating quite a few of the above problems.
    • Lack of Compensation for Additional Constraints - when you restrict something (either by proxy or directly), it will become a less valuable / less powerful choice if you don't compensate that restriction with additional power/value. It is a pretty basic tenant of game design. All of the above aside from lack of synergy, represent restrictions or constraints on hybrid builds. You need to adjust the power that these hybrid builds have by compensating them for this restriction, otherwise you'll end up with a suboptimal build choice. The important distinction here is that the compensation needs to be appropriate for the restrictions you are levying; historically this is ultimately where most hybrid builds die, there just isn't enough power compensation for the suboptimal build optimization that it requires.


    In the proposal, you have gone in a direction which isn't entirely bad. You've recognized that the above are largely problems but you've failed to pull out the major tools in your toolkit to really solve it and make EK the first in a long while of hybrid builds. You've taken half measures on a lot of things: including int/cha to hit but not to damage (completely redundant because you force pdk or harper, which means nobody will take this ability), including significant power compensations in T5s roughly equivalent to stand alone T5s in the non-hybrid trees (e.g. crit range and spell crit chance, crit multi and dcs) but adding in additional restrictions, tying a lot of build strength to the capstone and eldritch strike ability but having a low uptime on it, etc..

    I've spreadsheeted and run some monte carlo simulations for this build using a wizard chasis, and I've got to say it is still FAR behind its pure counterparts. I'd suggest including int/cha to damage, allowing all effects that currently scale with spell power to also be effected by melee power, having some way to cut down gearing requirements by granting melee power for spell power or vice versa, remove the ranged restriction on Knight's Transformation, half the cooldown for eldritch tempest, increase stacking size of force's point to 15, change synergistic magic from melee power/ranged power addon to haste boost, alter improved offhand's orb effect to double or triple the USP provided, and maybe include in the T5 a way to convert DCs to exceptional deadly or something.

    One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost. There's already significant motivation (carrot) to being in the epic defensive stance, you don't need to gate a significant chunk of EK's power behind the same casting restrictions as the stance (you see this as synergy between the two but players will see this as you motivating them with a stick).

    Tl;dr: succeeds in eliminating the noob trap, but fails to really solve the problems of hybrid builds in today's ddo
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    A new harder difficulty is likely to just be that: harder, without giving commensurate power...Ideally, at the very hardest edge of difficulty, we would not know how long it would take until all quests are completed on that difficulty.

  9. #29
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Intelligence to damage is missing while intelligence to hit is there, and I was kind of wanting to see some sort of melee attack that deals some sort of status ailment to enemies struck.

    Also, why not grant some melee power for people equipping orbs?

    Please consider updating the epic destiny trees to contain benefits that activate while under the effect of Knight's Transformation to help viability in epic and legendary ranged quests?

    And finally can you please add Bastard sword proficiency?
    Last edited by Lokeal_The_Flame; 11-14-2018 at 04:00 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    How many Spellsword Dice can I get?
    A pure 20 Wizard or Sorcerer that took all the Cores has 7d6 stable Spellsword dice, and turns it up to 11d6 when Eldritch Power is active (which you can keep up 50% of the time if you use Eldritch Blade any time it's off cooldown). Those dice scale at the normal rate with Spell Power.
    I see what you did there. Time to farm up a Spinal Tap!

  11. #31
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.
    So the skill triggers automatically when you hit the 5th stack?
    If so we have to stop using the Strike if we want to save / delay the Power.

    Can it be changed to being enabled and and having it's own action button after you get your 5 stacks... that way you can keep using the power....
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  12. #32
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    First off, I'd like to say that this looks like fairly good changes for a start, and if they don't change anymore at least it won't be a completely trap option for the new player anymore (I've heard tales of woe of many first time players coming from dnd 5e trying to create their gish).

    However, I'd like to examine why hybrid builds fail in ddo (I can think of only a handful of hybrid builds that have been successful in entire history of ddo post levelcap 20; as of now, there are none that are viable).

    What do I define as a hybrid build: a build that tries to combine two or more offensive combat styles on a single build (melee + ranged, melee + off casting, ranged + off casting, etc.).

    There are a few reasons why builds like this fail, historically in ddo:

    • Gearing requirements - this is probably one of the most egregious problems at the moment. The number of effects on gear has skyrocketed in terms of what you need to minmax a style since the levelcap was at 20. The last few gearing/loot passes we've had has seen a dramatic uptick in the number of effects. Between melee power, doublestrike, deadly, insightful deadly, sneak attack, insightful sneak attack, insightful doublestrike, armor piercing, accuracy, ability score increases, etc. and the list just keeps on going on and on, you have major problem fitting in all the effects into a single styled build like assassin much less a hybrid build. Now you add on to the fact that you only get one sentient weapon which means you are going to be down some effects in both styles or down a lot of effects in one style - this can't be overlooked.
    • Multiplication by 2 of requirements - when you have a hybrid build the gearing requirements, feat requirements, etc. are drastically increased (in most cases roughly multiplied by a factor of 2). If the gearing requirements weren't bad enough, try fitting in the feats you need, as well as, the destiny and scion feats to maintain two of spell power + dcs, melee power, and ranged power. Not to mention the fact that most builds (especially pure builds) have access to at most one hybrid tree. Let's take a look at sorc: savant + EK or EK + universal are really your only options. Let's take a look at ranger: DWS (hybrid tree) + AA or DWS + Tempest. You are also constrained in your enhancements that you use.
    • Lack of a good hybrid epic destiny (LD at one point in time was good enough for a few melee + ranged builds to exist using old mechanics). The problem is that LD (and on a few builds FotW) are so far ahead of their counterparts that you can't really function as a melee without being in one of those two destinies (and in most cases its LD). But LD provides absolutely no benefit to your spellpower, dcs, etc. For a hybrid build your best bet probably lies with Divine Crusader, a destiny that is woefully underpowered for non-magical dps compared to LD as well as plagued with quite a few build breaking bugs. If you were to optimize for spell casting you'd either go with exalted angel, shiradi, or DI - of which none of them provide meaningful boosts to your melee ability. Worse to this you have to worry about twists of fate, as you get the same number of fate points, have access to the same number of fate slots, meaning you will end up at a deficit on something. This means that you are effectively hamstrung and unable to pick a viable ED as there are none for this hybrid combat style.
    • Lack of Synergy - there just hasn't been any abilities or design work that has gone into making synergy in the combat styles to eliminate any of the other problems detailed in this post. For instance, including an ability which modulated your spellpower by a function of your melee power, would go a long way in eliminating quite a few of the above problems.
    • Lack of Compensation for Additional Constraints - when you restrict something (either by proxy or directly), it will become a less valuable / less powerful choice if you don't compensate that restriction with additional power/value. It is a pretty basic tenant of game design. All of the above aside from lack of synergy, represent restrictions or constraints on hybrid builds. You need to adjust the power that these hybrid builds have by compensating them for this restriction, otherwise you'll end up with a suboptimal build choice. The important distinction here is that the compensation needs to be appropriate for the restrictions you are levying; historically this is ultimately where most hybrid builds die, there just isn't enough power compensation for the suboptimal build optimization that it requires.


    In the proposal, you have gone in a direction which isn't entirely bad. You've recognized that the above are largely problems but you've failed to pull out the major tools in your toolkit to really solve it and make EK the first in a long while of hybrid builds. You've taken half measures on a lot of things: including int/cha to hit but not to damage (completely redundant because you force pdk or harper, which means nobody will take this ability), including significant power compensations in T5s roughly equivalent to stand alone T5s in the non-hybrid trees (e.g. crit range and spell crit chance, crit multi and dcs) but adding in additional restrictions, tying a lot of build strength to the capstone and eldritch strike ability but having a low uptime on it, etc..

    I've spreadsheeted and run some monte carlo simulations for this build using a wizard chasis, and I've got to say it is still FAR behind its pure counterparts. I'd suggest including int/cha to damage, allowing all effects that currently scale with spell power to also be effected by melee power, having some way to cut down gearing requirements by granting melee power for spell power or vice versa, remove the ranged restriction on Knight's Transformation, half the cooldown for eldritch tempest, increase stacking size of force's point to 15, change synergistic magic from melee power/ranged power addon to haste boost, alter improved offhand's orb effect to double or triple the USP provided, and maybe include in the T5 a way to convert DCs to exceptional deadly or something.

    One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost. There's already significant motivation (carrot) to being in the epic defensive stance, you don't need to gate a significant chunk of EK's power behind the same casting restrictions as the stance (you see this as synergy between the two but players will see this as you motivating them with a stick).

    Tl;dr: succeeds in eliminating the noob trap, but fails to really solve the problems of hybrid builds in today's ddo
    Awesome post!!
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
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  13. #33
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    Hmm. How much do the spell swords scale by? Do the percentage decreases to ASF stack, or is it just the higher of the two (i.e. the later core means you get a total reduction of 20% to ASF)? Also, I'm concerned that granting Ghost touch so early in the tree (3 lvls of Wiz/Sorc, 6 AP) is going to make it too lucrative of a low-hanging fruit.

    As far as the Perma Tenser's goes, is it not possible to have the base version as a tier 4 instead of the knight's Transformation and then have an improved toggle version at tier 5 that no longer increases CD (don't mind if you put the crit multiplier their or shove it into a later core) but reduces range to touch? That would mean that you'd choose between longer CDs on spells or having reduced range, which you can switch up according to the situation. I'd think the alchemical bonuses to Dex, Con, Str and AC are going to be very helpful as you engage with enemies toe to toe.

  14. #34
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    Fun! Looking forward to playing an EK soon. Not really sure how melee and spells will mesh together, let's see.

    Two old things I am disappointed:
    - Shield Striking temporary hp... could use a buff.
    - Eldritch Tempest: Expensive (3 AP), expensive (30 SP), long cooldown, very short duration of trip, weak damage. Compare to T5 Archmage Arcane Blast: 6 SP, 6 seconds cooldown, allows metamagics for free. This ability needs something to be worth a hotbar spot. Combination of long cooldown and weak effect makes it unattractive.

    New things that I would tweak:
    - add Illusions to Knight Controller, or add Knight Illusionist
    - Mystic Wards: maybe change to Protection from Evil SLA to keep with the theme?

  15. #35
    Community Member Duhboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Eldritch Power's buff doesn't stop you from getting further stacks - If you're running Eldritch Strike any time it's off cooldown, by the time Eldritch Power ends you should already have 2 stacks and be 6 seconds away from picking up your third. 30 seconds after Eldritch Power expires, you can hit 5 stacks again and the skill triggers.
    Why not just making it a clickie activation?

  16. #36
    Community Member Duhboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Which is very nice, having casts spells like nightshield while wearing heavy armor and tower shield often 0-o even with spell agility augment its 70% failure on my tank.
    Also in order to use heavy armor, you'd have to take light and medium armor as actual feats in order to take heavy armor prof.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morroiel View Post
    One final note: the Knight's Transformation reads as an effect that the devs think is a good design decision but from a player pov, it reads not only as an unfun railroading ability, but more importantly as a restriction rather than a power boost.
    Agreed that this was a really good post, well done Morroiel.

    My view is that EDF was a terrible addition to the game and it's a real shame to see a similar mechanic rearing its ugly head in this tree too. I think cooldown increases for spells while in this stance, that are reduced the more we invest in the tree, would be a better way to go.

    Your comments about gearing issues stemming from the four effects per item rule are really apt too. Like the EDF restrictions, this blanket rule has a highly variable impact on different builds which has little or nothing to do with how powerful those builds currently are.

    Thanks.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duhboy View Post
    Also in order to use heavy armor, you'd have to take light and medium armor as actual feats in order to take heavy armor prof.
    or multiclass

  19. #39
    Community Member Duhboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokeal_The_Flame View Post
    Intelligence to damage is missing while intelligence to hit is there, and I was kind of wanting to see some sort of melee attack that deals some sort of status ailment to enemies struck.
    Intelligence to damage is missing from EK but one can use harper tree and get it anyways while sorcs are simply out of luck

  20. #40
    Community Member Duhboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    or multiclass
    into a fighter, paladin, or cleric

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