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  1. #361
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    you know, its a capstone, would it be overly powerful to simply be +2 to both CHA and STR?
    I come from the west. Through countries, peoples, and cities - to this place: STORMREACH.
    My duty: Guardian. To mend and defend. To defend my newfound friends, their hopes, and dreams. To defend them from their enemies.

  2. #362
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The major goal with this light rework was to make Bards significantly less frustrating to play, not drastically change where they sit balance-wise. That being said, we talked it over and are going to flip the Warchanter capstone from +2 STR to +2 CHA in order to better synergize with the tree.
    That statement does not fit in with what Steelstar said in his OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    GOALS:

    • Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard
    • Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party
    • Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them
    • Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard
    • Help reduce strain on game performance by cleaning up the auras to play a lot nicer in a group
    • Clean up text inconsistencies and clear out bugs behind the scenes to make it easier to have future items/abilities affect Bard songs
    Goal 1 "Recapture the feeling" is completely subjective and you'll never get any agreement on it. Congratulations on making changes that you personally like?

    Goal 2, "less frustrating to play" part is completely covered by the song consolidation. You could have gone further, but what you're doing is inarguable as being "less" frustrating.

    Goal 4 is really just point 2, just restated. Department of redundancy department.

    Goal 5 is all behind the scenes. I will wait to see if players say that they see less lag after these changes. I have my doubts.

    Goal 6 is all things that you guys should be doing without waiting for some grand, formal 'pass.' It should be part of your every day jobs as players report bugs and other types of errors to you. There's no extra credit that comes from fixing a typo/text inconsistency/bug that should never have existed in the first place.

    Goal 3 "Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them" is what you are trying to deny in the quote from you above.

    If you don't make any efforts at all to change Bard balance here, you are offering up as the sole reason why a party would want a Bard after this pass rather than before as: "Hey, it doesn't take as long for them to buff the group anymore."

    I hope you can see exactly how lame that looks.
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    Yngvarr Stormedge: Aye, laddie. Aye. That be a mighty fine pooop deck.
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    sometimes you just want to light the players on fire, yanno?

  3. #363
    Community Member thunir's Avatar
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    Default A few take-a-ways

    I didn't know if I should post here or on the Lamania thread, but I hope this will suffice.

    The Bard song revamp is really strong, I appreciate the effort.

    I still think Bardic Inspiration should be carrying "Inspire Excellence" No one should be hanging around a bard for a Stat increases.

    That being said I also look forward to the rebalancing of Warchanter. Kudos for the decision to change the Cap to +2 CHA. Overall I think the lvl 20 Cap is weak and does not offer anything I couldn't live without.

    When you get around to looking at this you should make the Cap +2 CON +25 Hp and +3 to hit/damage and +3 to Combat feats so it serves both Str and Cha builds, keep it "Warmaster" then move the frozen cry/song into the frozen line.

    Starting with the Song, the name is horrible, if anything it should have been "Warcry", but Howl of the North would have been best. Its almost completely useless in its current form, there is no reliable CC in the game on a 2 Min cool down timer. The only thing that would save this is to give it Frozen permanence so there is no timer to unfreeze, then it could really be the "Oh ****!" button I think it was designed to be. I tested it and the frozen timing of the mobs seemed really short when compared even to spinning ice. But, seriously as it currently stands this thing is worthless in game. Cool, but worthless.

    I also think you should take current Frozen Furry and build the x1 Crit Multiplier into Skaldic rage and allow all the standard barbarian Rage abilities and items to function with it. Just call it Skaldic rage and make it the new tier 5. It makes more sense and it has more playability. Also it allows Cha builds to participate is Skaldic rage. If it were me Id have it an open +1 to Crit instead of 19/20, which has also been consistent feedback in this thread.

    Also, the Fatesinger abilities that are on song timer, meaning Reign, Aria, and the Fragments of the song Valor/ Clarity need to be re evaluated on how song time is granted.

    M2C

    My bad I just realized Fragmat of song Valor is not timed out, carry on.
    Last edited by thunir; 12-13-2018 at 09:16 PM.

  4. #364
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    "Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them"

    After U41 patch im missing the meaningful reason you wrote about.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The major goal with this light rework was to make Bards significantly less frustrating to play, not drastically change where they sit balance-wise. That being said, we talked it over and are going to flip the Warchanter capstone from +2 STR to +2 CHA in order to better synergize with the tree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    GOALS:

    • Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard
    • Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party
    • Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them
    • Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard
    • Help reduce strain on game performance by cleaning up the auras to play a lot nicer in a group
    • Clean up text inconsistencies and clear out bugs behind the scenes to make it easier to have future items/abilities affect Bard songs
    So, out of curiosity, who was in charge of making the changes in the tree (not sure if it was a largely collaborative effort or if there was a person who was doing the heavy changes with feedback from the other team members)? The only reason I ask this is because there seems to be a disconnect as far as stated intentions go coming from two different authoritative figures. It could be the case that something other than balance was in mind when Steelstar referred to there being a "meaningful reason... a party would want a Bard", but what exactly is that reason? Is it the buffs? Are the buffs so huge or great that it would warrant taking the place of another class? What, in your opinions, should be the "meaningful reason" to have a bard in the party?

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    What, in your opinions, should be the "meaningful reason" to have a bard in the party?
    Stacking buffs to the majority of the important combat stats. A lot of bards just didn't bother with their songs before because they were too slow. Furthermore, the stuff I didn't even have to change is still very strong. The Warchanter capstone providing an aura of 6% increased damage to everyone who uses weapons is huge, and Spellsingers have access to one of the only SP restoring abilities in the game.

    Bards already had the framework for party play, it was inside them all along! :P
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Bards already had the framework for party play, it was inside them all along! :P
    Maybe in a 12man raid party. Maybe.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Stacking buffs to the majority of the important combat stats. A lot of bards just didn't bother with their songs before because they were too slow. Furthermore, the stuff I didn't even have to change is still very strong. The Warchanter capstone providing an aura of 6% increased damage to everyone who uses weapons is huge, and Spellsingers have access to one of the only SP restoring abilities in the game.

    Bards already had the framework for party play, it was inside them all along! :P
    It's the bard buff time to value ratio that is off. If the value was there, the time would be taken. There is a (mis?)conception that bards don't add enough to the group to be taken very seriously. Right or wrong, it is the way it sits right now. I like my bard swash. I don't like taking that bard along in the highest difficulty quests because of how my playstyle changes based on the group around me. The character does not feel as useful and many players don't care about the buffs - a few points here and there just don't show up on their radar. It feel like I am way more glass than cannon. Also, there is so much aoe going on that fascinating is rarely worth the effort unless people slow down and get their tactics going on. It just doesn't happen that often.

    I look forward to new, fresh bard (and ALL buffs) ideas in the future.

    Got to thinking this may have come off as negative. I didn't mean it so. I love the new changes, I am also looking forward to how more than one bard in a group can benefit the entire group. Innovative buffs are the future of the bard!
    Last edited by guzzlr; 12-05-2018 at 12:23 PM.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeedOfChaos View Post
    Maybe in a 12man raid party. Maybe.
    then you don't know how to build a bard, mine was great melee DPS and CC, often was the last man standing in a tough fight. and now people will be buffed just being around my bard, meaning I can get back to fighting mobs more
    I come from the west. Through countries, peoples, and cities - to this place: STORMREACH.
    My duty: Guardian. To mend and defend. To defend my newfound friends, their hopes, and dreams. To defend them from their enemies.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Stacking buffs to the majority of the important combat stats. A lot of bards just didn't bother with their songs before because they were too slow. Furthermore, the stuff I didn't even have to change is still very strong. The Warchanter capstone providing an aura of 6% increased damage to everyone who uses weapons is huge, and Spellsingers have access to one of the only SP restoring abilities in the game.

    Bards already had the framework for party play, it was inside them all along! :P
    Fair enough. Thank you.

  11. #371
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    I’ve been giving this some thought, and I think the main reason bards aren’t as welcome as they used to be is that their inspire courage hasn’t changed much since the days when having a +2/+2 set bonus was considered very good gear for levels 13-20.
    Nowadays you can get or craft +10/+7 items, and you can find better stat items, AND you get +/+ from enhancements, which wasn’t nearly as common.
    Point being, today misses and grazing blows are a thing of the past, and unless you’re a warchanter you’re not adding much to the damage either.

    So this is a problem not because the current version isn’t good, it’s just no longer desirable or noticeable, which begs the question how to make it desirable without having to just double it’s values?

    I think what it boils down to is the damage. I suggest changing it from a flat number to a melee and ranged power boost. Everyone understands 10% (or whatever you’re aiming for) more damage will help them, but a +4 damage gets lost in the power creep.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrael View Post
    then you don't know how to build a bard, mine was great melee DPS and CC, often was the last man standing in a tough fight. and now people will be buffed just being around my bard, meaning I can get back to fighting mobs more

    The problem is build-independant. I can be the worst builder in game but this does not change the fact that the bard feels underpowered compared to other classes. With same skill, same build quality, same background, HARDLY a bard is a powerfull addition to a party. For example the healers (HEALERS) can oneshot 5 mobs in less time a bard softlock them with fascinate. This is quite sad. Other classes are way more fast to handle threats. Other important thing is that a second bard in the party is even more underpowered. Also a good part of the bard buffs can be took as feats or on items.
    I still think that the game is not balanced. And a CHA to HIT could be a solution. At least for Swashbuckler, which should be the aggressive version of the bard (Lynnabel wrote about the framework for party play, but the SB was not mentioned, this is a little hint imho) and is underpowered compared to other DPS.

    This is what i think.

    A chance as been wasted imho.

  13. #373
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  14. #374
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    Default Homework for Lynnabel :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    [LIST][*]Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard[*]Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party[*]Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them[*]Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard[*]Help reduce strain on game performance by cleaning up the auras to play a lot nicer in a group[*]Clean up text inconsistencies and clear out bugs behind the scenes to make it easier to have future items/abilities affect Bard songs
    Anyone that plays Bard is certainly very thankful for the hard work put into the songs rework.
    However, I can't help but to feel that it is somewhat incomplete.

    Many people asked for an improvement of Fatesinger, but I can imagine that would be strenuous and it is way beside the point here.

    After the good work on the buff songs, is there a chance for a quick look at the offensive songs?
    The bard fellowship gathered in this thread was keen on expressing their hopes and dreams for a well deserved update to these songs.
    Nobody asked for stronger, more powerful or even different songs.


    Mainly the requests concerned a better integration of different song effects and an improvement in the game mechanics of some songs.

    1) Enthrallment currently does not benefit from the bonuses added to fascinate. Would this require extensive work to be solved?

    2) Suggestion and mass suggestion song mechanics are too cumbersome to make them useful. They require enemies to be fascinated first, only then they can be used. Requiring two songs seems over penalizing considering the benefits. Com pare this mechanic with a simple cast of Mass suggestion spell. Furthermore, this song does not benefit from the effects of the Spellsinger cores, which are added to fascinate.
    Ideally, I think we all would like to see mass suggestion song apply without requiring fascinate and preferably making use of the Spellsinger cores, so that more monster types could be suggested. It makes very little sense that we can fascinate a varied array of monsters, but not suggest them.

    Overall, the current state of these songs makes up for a very complicated mechanic that offers a very limited benefit.

    The poor state of these class features reduces Bard gameplay and it limits the bard usefulness to the party. Because unlike weak enhancements, weak or under performing class features cannot be avoided or replaced with more efficient choices.

    After the good work on the buff songs, we are still left with a few downers. Would it be too complicated to solve them?

    Thanks for the good work.

    Cheers,

  15. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    GOALS:

    • Recapture the feeling of a classical pen and paper Bard
    • Reduce the time it takes for a Bard to buff the party
    • Provide a meaningful reason as to why a party would want a Bard with them
    • Remove some of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics from the buff playstyle as a Bard
    • Help reduce strain on game performance by cleaning up the auras to play a lot nicer in a group
    • Clean up text inconsistencies and clear out bugs behind the scenes to make it easier to have future items/abilities affect Bard songs

    ...
    CONCLUSION:
    We hope very much that these changes preserve the spirit of a Bard without any of the old, less interactive parts. Drastically reduced buff time and increased buff effectiveness will go a long way to making Bards more team players, and new character options open up build diversity for players to explore. Please let us know what you think!
    It's been a while since these changes were introduced, and Bard buffs are better, but I think you missed the mark on some of these goals. A Bard is definitely worth having around for raids, I assume performance is better, and I haven't noticed any bugs. But time to buff the party feels at least as poor as it used to be after these changes, and now the single-target songs are the new not-quite-so-fun mechanic

    I've been playing a Bard off and on since Shroud first came out. These days I keep a Bard at cap for raids.

    Under the old songs I'd sing a couple of AoE songs at the start of the raid, cast a bunch of buff spells, and the occasional person would get a single-target song if I felt like it and they asked. This took a noticeable amount of time, and it was a pain to have to gather everyone up again every 4-5 minutes to re-apply AoE songs.

    With the new songs, I now spend 2 minutes at a time singing a single-target song to each character in the raid, making sure that they have fully loaded in / shrined first, and that the buff actually applies when the animation is done before moving on to the next person. We just ran 3 Too Hot To Handle raids in about an hour. In each run I just spent 4 of those minutes singing songs. Every single time I get frustrated by it, and regularly the party also complains. On the last run they gave up and just went on without them.

    I've heard various ideas tossed around, but could we maybe get a song that casts the single-target buffs on all party members within range and uses up 12 songs? That would make playing with Bards much better.
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    "Fortune and glory, kid. Fortune and glory.
    - Henry Jones, Sarlona
    All done with Completionist (again) and Epic Completionist. First character to 30 on Sarlona* (before the rollback).

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