Random Dungeon Generator

[Evillot]

I know this is not a crazy new idea. I have seen some threads on this in the past. I thought it would be worth at least posting my thoughts on the suggestion. I think the feature is truly important enough to make again, especially for DDO.

I have to say I don't much care for any story presented in DDO. Its not that it has bad writing. It's that I don't log on to MMO for the story. I need a good setting, maybe some lore on the side.

I have seen threads where random dungeon generator is suggested and people default to crying about had made storylines and hand crafted dungeons. I get it, they are great, but they have a half life. The feeling I got in 2006 running water works is gone. If you had a optional procedural sewer generator for that level range in the harbor. I think DDO would be in a good place. No knowing what is around the corner is extremely satisfying. More satisfying than the lore. The devs are already not afraid to reuse assets. So why not just shove all them assets into a random dungeon generator. I just don't see why it hasn't happened yet. It's a chance at infinite content.

I don't understand why I have never seen the devs talk about it. I don't know why the community does not have a louder voice asking for it. Overtime a good random dungeon generator could be refined to the point that it even makes puzzles and stories.

I would love anymore conversation about random dungeons in DDO.

[systemshaker1941]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener" include random elements?

To answer some of your questions, I think the community's tastes have been soured by quests with random elements like the placement of a key; where bad luck on the RNG can easily triple the completion time of the quest. Stromvauld's Mine, for example, can get extraordinarily frustrating.

Part of the problem is that creating it with the game's existing technology is hard, but there are ways they could fake it.

I know wouldn't mind seeing some dungeons with more randomly-generated elements, so long as it was well thought out.

[Evillot]

I have never finished a dungeon an been like whoa our time was way down. I do understand the frustration, with finding a last widget to interact with to get out of the dungeon and move on to the next one.

I feel like any random dungeon generator should be well thought out. If it was just square rooms with different monsters it would not be great. It would something different and unpredictable, but not great.

I have no idea what the DDO engine limitations are.

I actually just realized I made a similar thread last year. I completely forgot about it lol. I literally think about how cool it would be if I had not seen the dungeon yet when I run a old one. And am on the edge of my seat excited when I find a new one. Lol

[systemshaker1941]

Just for fun next life I'm planning to run every single dungeon and raid in the game :P Find out exactly how much content I've never even touched.

But yeah, the engine(being at this point going on 20 years old) has some rough limitations to it. Even the quests with "random" elements(E.G randomly spawning quest item locations) relies on rotating through a handful of fixed locations.


One really easy way to do it? Create a large handful of "rooms"(say a few dozen) that have to be cleared, either by defeating the enemies in them or finishing a puzzle(or both) that are linked by portals. The dungeon randomly assigns you 5 or 6 rooms to work through to get the completion. This is something well within the game's capabilities(as demonstrated by Memoirs) and has the potential to be a lot of fun. They could solve a lot of the things that make people complain about Memoirs simply by using two-way portals that open after the room is finished, rather than a hackneyed "Gather" mechanic.

I say "Room" to describe a section, it wouldn't be a boring square box.

A lot of other directions you could go based on that system. Increase the number of possible rooms(up to say 100), and let you choose higher numbers of rooms for a better reward. Max at say 20 rooms, with even better rewards for higher difficulties. You could further increase the replayability by using the rare spawn mechanic from the explorer areas, where some rooms have the option of including a rare who drops special items.



Another entirely unrelated idea? A very large, sprawling dungeon, sectioned off by doors. Which doors are open is decided randomly, you then have to navigate the dungeon like a maze. Maybe not the most awesome concept, but it would add that random element you are seeking. This would be another spot where you could toss in rare spawns.

Both of these might get a little frustrating. But, hey, isnt the goal just to add more content?

[Evillot]

Just for fun next life I'm planning to run every single dungeon and raid in the game :P Find out exactly how much content I've never even touched.

But yeah, the engine(being at this point going on 20 years old) has some rough limitations to it. Even the quests with "random" elements(E.G randomly spawning quest item locations) relies on rotating through a handful of fixed locations.


One really easy way to do it? Create a large handful of "rooms"(say a few dozen) that have to be cleared, either by defeating the enemies in them or finishing a puzzle(or both) that are linked by portals. The dungeon randomly assigns you 5 or 6 rooms to work through to get the completion. This is something well within the game's capabilities(as demonstrated by Memoirs) and has the potential to be a lot of fun. They could solve a lot of the things that make people complain about Memoirs simply by using two-way portals that open after the room is finished, rather than a hackneyed "Gather" mechanic.

I say "Room" to describe a section, it wouldn't be a boring square box.

A lot of other directions you could go based on that system. Increase the number of possible rooms(up to say 100), and let you choose higher numbers of rooms for a better reward. Max at say 20 rooms, with even better rewards for higher difficulties. You could further increase the replayability by using the rare spawn mechanic from the explorer areas, where some rooms have the option of including a rare who drops special items.



Another entirely unrelated idea? A very large, sprawling dungeon, sectioned off by doors. Which doors are open is decided randomly, you then have to navigate the dungeon like a maze. Maybe not the most awesome concept, but it would add that random element you are seeking. This would be another spot where you could toss in rare spawns.

Both of these might get a little frustrating. But, hey, isnt the goal just to add more content?

Having linked rooms with portals would be a good compromise if the engine is truly unable to handle the amount of tiles required for a random dungeon generator. I just like to be surprised. I have seen the random dungeons work for rouglikes.

The game is great right now. Somehow you always expect more from the things you really like.

[tafla421]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener" include random elements?

To answer some of your questions, I think the community's tastes have been soured by quests with random elements like the placement of a key; where bad luck on the RNG can easily triple the completion time of the quest. Stromvauld's Mine, for example, can get extraordinarily frustrating.

Part of the problem is that creating it with the game's existing technology is hard, but there are ways they could fake it.

I know wouldn't mind seeing some dungeons with more randomly-generated elements, so long as it was well thought out.

there is no randomness to memoirs. cordovan originally said it was suppose to be a choose your own adventure type of quest but there isn't much choosing. I mean when your dialogue options only change weather the elf is an elf who says whom or not doesn't really count as random. I do believe it was originally meant to be a choose your own adventure thing but they just couldn't deliver so instead we got left with a quest that is horribly buggy.

[systemshaker1941]

there is no randomness to memoirs. cordovan originally said it was suppose to be a choose your own adventure type of quest but there isn't much choosing. I mean when your dialogue options only change weather the elf is an elf who says whom or not doesn't really count as random. I do believe it was originally meant to be a choose your own adventure thing but they just couldn't deliver so instead we got left with a quest that is horribly buggy.

Ouch. Yeah, I'm not too surprised. I think the technology available to the devs could do it, but I bet they mistook "choose your own adventure" for "get some other dialogue options that no one is going to read". Ugh.

Having linked rooms with portals would be a good compromise if the engine is truly unable to handle the amount of tiles required for a random dungeon generator. I just like to be surprised. I have seen the random dungeons work for rouglikes.

The game is great right now. Somehow you always expect more from the things you really like.

The tile systems that randomly generates dungeons in roguelikes work because the game was designed from the ground up to do that. The idea is certainly sound, but trying to make DDO's engine do the same thing, especially with the extremely limited resources available to the team, wouldn't be possible(devs, I'd welcome being proven wrong :P). Its just too different a capability from what the game was designed for.

But yeah, having linked rooms is something already possible: Temple of Deathwyrm has shades of this. It would just take expanding on the functionality. In theory the dungeon could be an eternal work in progress, with new rooms being added every update.

[Evillot]

Eternal work in progress is my dream. If I seen a patch note saying. 5 trap types added to random dungeon. I would be so excited.

[systemshaker1941]

It could be a thing of pure beauty, purely just by turning on and off portals :P

[Ralmeth]

I think this would be a lot of work, which is probably why it hasn't been done. Also, I know you don't care about the story but there are a lot of people that do (myself included), such that a dungeon with just random mobs to fight sounds kind of boring.

Instead, I think what would be more interesting would be randomization of trash mob placement within existing quests. For a quest you've run a ton of times, you know exactly where the mobs are before you even get to them. Imagine, instead of having a tactical plan ahead of time (ex. run around the corning, use stunning blow on the shaman in the corner, kill him, then turn back and get the two melee mobs, etc) you have to figure it out as you go. In my example, instead you turn the corner ready to stun the shaman in the corner and find he's not there, but then you get jumped from behind by an ooze!