Wisdom monks

[Jakabya]

I have to say that wisdom monks probably get the best dps of all monks, and the best utilities. Personally I'm upset because I don't play wisdom monks, for those that do, they will probably still be able to play their build after this Nerf. Maybe dex based monks can too, but less so. I play a strength based fist monk. Before wisdom based monk was a thing, it was a toss up between str and dex. Strength gets you better crits and less double strike, dex, the other way around. Wisdom imo should get you better utilities and less crit dmg and double strike. But it doesn't. Wisdom gets better utilities and better dps. Because of this I want to ask that you do Nerf monks, but just wisdom monks. The str and dex monks of ddo are not over powered, they are balanced. I don't know how you Nerf only the monks with a falcon, maybe just Nerf the falconry tree as a whole, maybe remove wisdom to hit and dmg from the tree. Either way, please don't destroy str monks and dex monks. Those are by far my favorite builds, and the most interesting to me and many other players in ddo. I hope you seriously consider this. I do strongly believe that wisdom monks are more of an outlier in dmg and utilities than any other build. I don't believe that str and dex monks are.

[hp1055cm]

I hear ya, and its pretty clear to most that the Falconry tree is what tipped the balance on monks. Being Wisdom based as a monk does give you an advantage over traditional builds.
I got Falconry when it came out and have run several Monk lives to cap with it. It rocks. Glad I got in before the changes and had some fun.
Couple it with Aasimar race and you can self heal all the way to cap. They will be chopping that too soon so use it now... lol.
I don't agree that (Falconry) monks are an "outlier" or over-powered - at least not any more so that Warlocks are.

I know this because I'm playing Warlock now and mopping up in lower Reaper content solo.
I don't even have to try hard; picked up a free Morninglord Sceptre for free which pairs nicely with almost anything.
Just found out this week there is a belt in (heroic) Ravenloft that adds 77 spell power with a "enhanced bonus" plus mine has mythic and reaper bonus on it... (and I thought the +45 "Profane" spellpower from Reaper Power was OP) lol I kill stuff at run speed now. If I get in a jam I just cast Evard's and clear the room.
These guys don't have a clue about "balance". I do admit I am having fun on Warlock though, for awhile...
The best part is I hardly ever have to use a hireling anymore when soloing reaper. As a monk I had to keep one around in case I needed a rescue heal.
I noticed that some people even exclude warlocks from their posted LFMs... lol. Whatever floats your boat, not missing you too much.

The change to weapon W will have at least 3 side effects: people will play monk less overall (and fewer still will play Str or Dex based), people will be pushed towards 1 optimal build for monk if they want to play in challenging content or solo, and the whiners and clueless overseers will find some other non-problem to rein in. Fact.
It really bothered me when Steelstar announced the changes but I'm over it now... I'll find some other way to play and move on. They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

[AbyssalMage]

They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

[Proton]

How much time do we have before they neuter fist monks and make them boring to use?

I am about to TR and maybe it would be good to run it while I still can before such fun is nerfed.

I don't see how turning the base from 3.5W at level 20 to a 1 and +4 to hit is only going to bring damage per a second down by 10%. In heroics fist monk will turn into scratch the monsters monk. I suppose I'd have to dump all on wisdom, so now to get monk to sorta keep up with... monk... there is only a narrow rhoute to take instead of customization options that made this game so awesome Figure out the narrow path to make monk almost as good as monk was.

Its too bad too, I also have a alt monk (the mighty Bujiga!) who is a strength build and it will have to use its heart now to go with that narrow path since now strength monk is going to become obsolete along with dex monk.

If the wisdom monk still lands 90% dps, be it a narrow path, then Ill do what I can to optimize my alt monk. I keep an alt of each prestige so I can easily compare them during updates, keeping up with things faster then rerolling. I played my Str Monk the other day and have to say it was total fun in heroics at level 14, dps was good, it was tough, but it died and was not OP and it was only taking on r1 content with leftover blue gear. It was a lot more fun to use then most melee builds but Im probably missing out on the wisdom fun and should just use that heart to optimize it now.

I see a few monks on my server that run R4 or R3 a lot, they are fun to run with and don't seem too over the top. My own monk certainly was not over the top, not even remotely outlier as the claim is it should be. It sounds to me like an epic thing far far more then a heroic thing.



I hope the devs are able to tailor the nerf so if there is some point where they are justing mopping r10 with ease or something that I don't know about, it is only that part that is getting fixed and not the part that doesn't need it down in heroics. If the monk I am using now didn't have its dps, it would suck really bad because that dps is part of its survivability, a massive part, its not a true tank, it lives by hitting hard and fast and trying to out maneauver while doing so, if it has to spend double that time mobs already killed it It might be great for willo wisps and all, but most of the time its not those kinds of creatures. Without that DPS monk will no doubt become not only far more boring to use, but far squishier then it used to be as mobs get double the time to deal damage if DPS goes down...

[droid327]

It's all cyclical. I don't think that wis monks are op right now as much as it highlights that there aren't as many good ways to spend your ap in monk trees themselves, compared to spending it in falcon.

If monk got a bit of enhancement modernization to support str and dex better then going falcon for pure wis would be balanced by the ap trade off

[MrTrolol]

I hope the devs are able to tailor the nerf so if there is some point where they are justing mopping r10 with ease or something that I don't know about, it is only that part that is getting fixed and not the part that doesn't need it down in heroics. If the monk I am using now didn't have its dps, it would suck really bad because that dps is part of its survivability, a massive part, its not a true tank, it lives by hitting hard and fast and trying to out maneauver while doing so, if it has to spend double that time mobs already killed it It might be great for willo wisps and all, but most of the time its not those kinds of creatures. Without that DPS monk will no doubt become not only far more boring to use, but far squishier then it used to be as mobs get double the time to deal damage if DPS goes down...

Man monks arent going to suffer that much, they do a bit less damage yea but it isn't that big of a hit. Please stop exaggerating it's effect on monks as it is some doomsday of them.

[Renvar]

How much time do we have before they neuter fist monks and make them boring to use?

Never? Monks (even post modifications in U40) are very high DPS, with the best melee CC possible, great defenses, and a lot of special utility options. They are very fun to play.

[Proton]

Hope your right about that. I am hearing the W3.5 is going to being just W1 and +4 to hit, and that is a massive dps change in heroics but far more likely to be just 10% in epics as claimed its supposed to be. I get the feeling this nerf wont be implemented well and the monks that suffer most will be in heroics. If Monks are less fun to play in heroics it wont take long to figure out.

Is that correct that the W3.5 is being brought down to just W1 right? I've seen how much it effects any weapon when the base goes from 1 to 2 or 2.5W, if this is indeed the case then heroic monk is going to suffer big time and epic monk will barely see any hit at all, and from what I gather it is epic monk that is the problem, not so much heroic monk.

Thus I am doubtful this nerf, if it is as mentioned, will make monks more fun to play, but will do a lot to hurt the fun of playing them in heroics.

[MrTrolol]

Hope your right about that. I am hearing the W3.5 is going to being just W1 and +4 to hit, and that is a massive dps change in heroics but far more likely to be just 10% in epics as claimed its supposed to be. I get the feeling this nerf wont be implemented well and the monks that suffer most will be in heroics. If Monks are less fun to play in heroics it wont take long to figure out.

Is that correct that the W3.5 is being brought down to just W1 right? I've seen how much it effects any weapon when the base goes from 1 to 2 or 2.5W, if this is indeed the case then heroic monk is going to suffer big time and epic monk will barely see any hit at all, and from what I gather it is epic monk that is the problem, not so much heroic monk.

Thus I am doubtful this nerf, if it is as mentioned, will make monks more fun to play, but will do a lot to hurt the fun of playing them in heroics.

Lets be honest here, Heroics are easy for every class.

[Proton]

Lets be honest here, Heroics are easy for every class.

In a sense that is true. It is easy to get through them, there are many ways for that. How things are now I can't see TRing so many alts, and they can always hitch rides for things that are beyond them. Easy and fun are two different words, and the one's that are the funnest are the ones that function to handle more difficult content in most cases.

Playing 1 toon through 150 lives is a lot of game. When it turns into this massive task, which it has, the game is not how it was. Time becomes something to compress efficiently to make reaching the target happen sooner. Some classes excel, and these ones are more fun obviously and for obvious reasons, then the ones that can easily but slower and with more dependency involved, get through heroics.

Besides, who wants a dependent toon by level 20? I don't... it if can't solo certain things with ease I won't even begin to remotely consider putting it together as a means to make that long process efficiently reduced.

If it takes me twice as long to TR with monk after nerf, I won't hesitate to use whatever build is faster. I have no idea if things will slow down for Monk TR rates, gains on reaper will drop, they can still float through lower difficulty settings I suppose, but if there is a build that beats that, guess what build I will use???

Its not a question of easy anymore, its a question of efficiency to acquire PLs fast (and thus, I try to make or use the best build I can and seek to make things as easy on myself as possible). Set backs that cost time during this long process are far from fun, and anything that slows this down, a squishy build, a build that takes a long time to get through quests, or is dependent on others who aren't always around, these are out of the question going to be avoided for achieving this aim.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

At cap, Wisdom monks are inferior to Dex-based Monks in most content. They have lower DPS due to the enhancement split. They have less dodge. Less SA. Less Incorporeality. Wisdom monks get Sprint boost, and a working QP. It's a reasonable trade-off unless its undead content on high R.

I've been playing one since before Reaper came out.

[Sorcerio]

At cap, Wisdom monks are inferior to Dex-based Monks in most content.

I agree very much with this. On the most recent Lamannia I made both to see which way I should go on live for my next upcoming monk life. I plan on staying at cap, so I am building it dex-based.... the way I always have since dex-based for handwraps came out. It seems to me now that if I were just going to TR at 20, or go to 30 and grab a couple of raid completions on LN or LH then ER->TR I'd be more inclined to make it a wis-based monk using Shintao, Falconer, and a little Ninja Spy for incorp.

In short:
Wis-based for Heroics and lower difficulties in epic and legendary content.
Dex-based for elite+ legendary content.

[Alled78]

I agree very much with this. On the most recent Lamannia I made both to see which way I should go on live for my next upcoming monk life. I plan on staying at cap, so I am building it dex-based.... the way I always have since dex-based for handwraps came out. It seems to me now that if I were just going to TR at 20, or go to 30 and grab a couple of raid completions on LN or LH then ER->TR I'd be more inclined to make it a wis-based monk using Shintao, Falconer, and a little Ninja Spy for incorp.

In short:
Wis-based for Heroics and lower difficulties in epic and legendary content.
Dex-based for elite+ legendary content.

I player a wisdom monk before falconry
It IS Clear wisdom base IS better for every content with falconry

Nerf affect both wisdom and dex build and i dont Like it

[Proton]

Guess we get to see how lame heroic monk becomes tomorrow. Im glad they are adding cloaks, some neat things with the update.. though this monk nerf is one of the worst nerfs I ever saw, hurting heroic monk to appease epic monk Ill play my alt mule monk a bit tonight so I can compare his performance to the change the day after. Ill run some lvl 15 quests since he is lvl 15 and then repeat them after nerf to compare, my guess is the new nerf monk will be less fun.

[Sorcerio]

Well if it takes more punches to kill a monster that means more chances for Frozen Tunic's freezing ice to proc... and that is fun.

[Lynnabel]

I hear ya, and its pretty clear to most that the Falconry tree is what tipped the balance on monks.

It's become very hard to productively engage with this topic, but it's really worth pointing out the actual reasoning behind this change for those who didn't read the original post about this change:

Handwraps, when they weren't weapons, didn't have dice scaling from the weapon itself. Actual weapons benefit from increased dice at higher levels, but Handwraps didn't. To compensate, monks were given dice scaling from the Unarmed Strike Feat.

When Handwraps were made to be actual weapons, they began using actual weapon scaling W, but were also granted even more W scaling with the Unarmed Strike Feat. The extra 2.5W became just bonus damage, rather than its original compensation for a lack of weapon based scaling.

Monks right now excel at a lot of things, and even after this change they'll still be very effective damage dealers.

[HastyPudding]

It's become very hard to productively engage with this topic, but it's really worth pointing out the actual reasoning behind this change for those who didn't read the original post about this change:

Handwraps, when they weren't weapons, didn't have dice scaling from the weapon itself. Actual weapons benefit from increased dice at higher levels, but Handwraps didn't. To compensate, monks were given dice scaling from the Unarmed Strike Feat.

When Handwraps were made to be actual weapons, they began using actual weapon scaling W, but were also granted even more W scaling with the Unarmed Strike Feat. The extra 2.5W became just bonus damage, rather than its original compensation for a lack of weapon based scaling.

Monks right now excel at a lot of things, and even after this change they'll still be very effective damage dealers.

I think this is the thing a lot of people are having trouble realizing: monks aren't supposed to be powerhouse attackers like barbarians. They're supposed to be fast and accurate with good damage, moderate defenses, and be strong against spellcasters.

You guys should have taken away the unarmed strike damage bonus when you changed wraps to weapons. That would have negated this entire outcry. I'm also in the group that thinks +5 to attack is just about useless in exchange for losing 2.5[w]. +10 attack or a +% attack bonus would be more in line with what monk is supposed to be: fast and accurate.

[DrawingGuy]

It's become very hard to productively engage with this topic, but it's really worth pointing out the actual reasoning behind this change for those who didn't read the original post about this change:

Handwraps, when they weren't weapons, didn't have dice scaling from the weapon itself. Actual weapons benefit from increased dice at higher levels, but Handwraps didn't. To compensate, monks were given dice scaling from the Unarmed Strike Feat.

When Handwraps were made to be actual weapons, they began using actual weapon scaling W, but were also granted even more W scaling with the Unarmed Strike Feat. The extra 2.5W became just bonus damage, rather than its original compensation for a lack of weapon based scaling.

Monks right now excel at a lot of things, and even after this change they'll still be very effective damage dealers.

Lynnabel, thank you for responding to a thread. Unfortunately one of the problems is the complete lack of engagement regarding this topic - there have only been two Dev posts acknowledging the topic since Steelstar's post regarding the nerf, including yours. Unfortunately they both point to the exact same thing which is frustrating myself any many others... this statement:

Actual weapons benefit from increased dice at higher levels, but Handwraps didn't. To compensate, monks were given dice scaling from the Unarmed Strike Feat.

That is NOT how I see why the Unarmed Strike Feat exists. It exists because unarmed die steps is a Monk Class Feature that has existed since the 1st edition of D&D, and has existed in every single version of PnP. When Monks were added to the game in Module 8, they too had the die step system... because after all, it is a class feature of Monk and it was a Monk they created.

When the Weapon Multiplier system was created in DDO in Update 14 (MOTU brought many changes), all weapons and systems that had scaling die, including Unarmed Strike, was converted to this system. Its first implementation was very conservative with one-offs and specific named/crafting systems being the only ones that really got more than the +1 Epic bonus. Future updates certainly upped that scaling, and years later Update 29 made it a blanket scaling system.

To claim that Unarmed Strike is a compensation for weapon scaling rather than having any basis on the die step system... despite it being called steps and following the exact same step deployment of 3.5 I find confusing and frustrating. It is also frustrating why pick this system over any other of the many sources? There are items, there are enhancements, there are feats -- all of these could accomplish the same 10% cap nerf you are looking for without attacking this class feature. And what you pick can dictate what kind of cross-class and pure spreads you want it to really hit.

Even if my assumption these last 6 years is incorrect - that the Unarmed Strike conversion to the new die step system was not an attempt to have a class feature follow new DDO mechanics, but rather labeled as a "compensation" internally and the die step class feature was in reality simply deleted in 2012 - please reconsider the source of the nerf.

[jetster11]

It's become very hard to productively engage with this topic, but it's really worth pointing out the actual reasoning behind this change for those who didn't read the original post about this change:

Handwraps, when they weren't weapons, didn't have dice scaling from the weapon itself. Actual weapons benefit from increased dice at higher levels, but Handwraps didn't. To compensate, monks were given dice scaling from the Unarmed Strike Feat.

When Handwraps were made to be actual weapons, they began using actual weapon scaling W, but were also granted even more W scaling with the Unarmed Strike Feat. The extra 2.5W became just bonus damage, rather than its original compensation for a lack of weapon based scaling.

Monks right now excel at a lot of things, and even after this change they'll still be very effective damage dealers.

This argument is just wrong. I challenge any developer or player to make a pure unarmed monk that can keep up with any other melee from 15-20 heroic with 1-3 past lives. And post the results. Then do the same thing without any gear from the last years packs and no falconry tree.

Monk before yesterday and since inception lvls 1-3 1W, 4-7 1.5W 8-11 2.0W 12-15 2.5W 16-19 3.0W 20 3.5W and reinforced fists was a thing even in those days with the arkat cord.

Weapons 1.0W from 1-9 1.5 from 10-19 2.0 from 20.

So changing handwraps to weapons does not even come close to compensating for the unarmed strike feat you are taking away. Perhaps you should return handwraps to the original concept of not being martial weapons, if you are so worried about monks getting extra W dice. Then my non melees could use them again in fighting oozes without non-proficiency.

so now monk can look forward to 1.5W 1-6 x2 damage up to level 20 (and only one cleave attack WWA) unless they use one of two handwraps in the game (scraps of enlightenment, dwarven brawlers) or the ring from ravenloft. All three are from content created in last year. Otherwise every other handwrap in the game has been destroyed including all random drops. And even those can not even begin to compete with a riftmaker or any of the new content two-handed, hand and a half weapons.


Riftmaker 1.5W (1-12 base) x4 multiplier, 1.5 strength multiplier, 2-4 cleave attacks (cleave, great cleave, supreme cleave, power attack, etc...)

You win. i would like my money back for the monk class please.

[janave]

Handwraps, when they weren't weapons, didn't have dice scaling from the weapon itself. Actual weapons benefit from increased dice at higher levels, but Handwraps didn't. To compensate, monks were given dice scaling from the Unarmed Strike Feat.

When Handwraps were made to be actual weapons, they began using actual weapon scaling W, but were also granted even more W scaling with the Unarmed Strike Feat. The extra 2.5W became just bonus damage, rather than its original compensation for a lack of weapon based scaling.

Monks right now excel at a lot of things, and even after this change they'll still be very effective damage dealers.

I played before the whole W thing existed, monks did exist, and they had increased unarmed die as they leveled up.

hard to productively engage with this topic

-- Sorry but this time the players gave outstanding feedback in multiple threads, it is on your end.
-- Significantly better ways to handle shintao dps tweaking are posted by players, like on a reallllly big scale better.

PS: You guys arent coding a business application with streamlined workflow, if you keep flattening and linearizing all systems in DDO, we are going to have to seek another hobby...

A lots of custom builds (not all OP), are built around behavior you guys keep killing...

It is hard to spend money on a game thats sinks several months of effort to create a custom built (barely keeping up), then getting it nuked due to a completely unrelated stuff that was recently released, but too much ego stops you from fixing that instead..