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  1. #1
    Community Member MrTrolol's Avatar
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    Default Monk Will Be Fine

    Monk has many things going for them such as good saves, great AC an dodge. you can also get a decent PRR and a nice amount of hp. You can CC self heal to a certain point and deal great damage. With the incoming nerfs hitting their damage a bit i'm sure they will be fine.

  2. #2
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    I believe the opinion is that they'll be fine at cap. The big problem comes in that:
    1) They're reducing their damage at level 20 by something like 25% from what it is now. (higher % for newer players)
    2) They're removing a core iconic class feature from pnp.
    3) They're saying they're doing the nerf because monks are a dps outlier; which high-reaper theorists do not support with all the theorycrafting/build testing they've done.

    There have been many proposals to reduce endgame monk dps to a still-solid-but-lower-because-of-defenses level that don't completely neuter a monk's 1-20 leveling process.
    Selvera: Deep gnome Alchemist 14/Rogue 1/Wizard 1; Q-staff build
    Jen: Half Elf Fvs 20/Epic 10; Healer Archer with a more supportive build then usual
    Mayve: Tiefling Sorc 16; Just a pastlife for an alt

  3. #3
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    Default No, they won't.

    If a monk stays at 1(w) from level 1 to 20, which is what losing the increments does, you're losing 5/7th of your damage by 20.
    That's a 71.4% base damage nerf at 20, which you're going to have to mitigate with the highest damage wraps you can get.
    This also totally negates using wraps for utility, for certain effects (like ivy vampirism), since they are not BIS for damage.

    Even now, monks can't even keep pace with a barbarian or ranger in junk gear. Literally everyone in my guild is rerolling their
    monks as soon as this goes live, we've been gathering gear for new classes.

    They made this change because ONE monk build, using raid wraps, eight feats, an off-destiny (LD), flowers-twist filigree boost-build, was doing spike damage they
    considered too high. Their solution.... nerf heroic monks back to the stone age, because they screwed up handwraps (after working on them for a decade. Literally.)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubom70 View Post
    If a monk stays at 1(w) from level 1 to 20, which is what losing the increments does, you're losing 5/7th of your damage by 20.
    That's a 71.4% base damage nerf at 20, which you're going to have to mitigate with the highest damage wraps you can get.
    I've tried to stay out of these kinds of discussions but this is just patently inaccurate. a level 20 pure monk gets 2.5W, which when using heroic wraps as this is what people seem to be raging about the most, amounts to 8.75 base damage loss. 1d6 is the dice roll that +W affects and averages out to 3.5 damage, multiply this by 2.5 and you get 8.75. Now if you are using a +0 weapon with no on hit affects at all, the stat you are using to affect weapon damage is 10 and you have no other bonuses to damage then yes, losing that 2.5W is 5/7th of your damage but in reality the amount of a nerf this really is will be different for everyone. Completely made up numbers to follow but if you have +10 bonus damage at level 20 then you lose about 40% of your damage due to the nerf, but if you instead have +100 bonus damage then you only lose about 8% of your damage. This is only a rough example not taking into account things like on hit affects or crits and seeker but the point is the less bonus damage your monk has the more this nerf hurts you and unless you are playing the worst built monk the world has ever seen you will not lose 70% of your damage.

  5. #5
    Community Member mraz's Avatar
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    the thing is if they cant do significant damage on reaper they will be put on the shelf. if theres much better choice to use for rtrs they will be put on the shelf. its a killshot, simple as that.

  6. #6
    Community Member LucasMacKinnon's Avatar
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    Default

    I love my monk and I will just have to see how everything is when it hits live. I'm not a meta player. I like my pure builds. I am not a Min Max player. We will see how badly this effects the casual player and how monks are played. I don't agree with the constant changing of monks. I know there are so many splash builds out there which out dps pure builds. I am not saying take a nerf bat to everyone, I am just saying instead of taking the nerf bat to classes like monk why not fix some of these splash builds so they can't stack certain things like sneak damage, or these different effects. I would say honestly bring some of the other melee up in their damage. Look when swashbuckler first came out. Bards got the huge boost they needed for a long time. Jump ahead to now. You see mostly 3 class splash builds that essentially try to break the game. these splash builds push outlier dps more then any pure build ever could.

  7. #7
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    This nerf will hurt casual players a lot more then it hurts meta players; which is yet another reason why the change is poorly implemented.
    Selvera: Deep gnome Alchemist 14/Rogue 1/Wizard 1; Q-staff build
    Jen: Half Elf Fvs 20/Epic 10; Healer Archer with a more supportive build then usual
    Mayve: Tiefling Sorc 16; Just a pastlife for an alt

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamagawi View Post
    I've tried to stay out of these kinds of discussions but this is just patently inaccurate..
    Nowhere in that entire point did I say a monk would lose 71.4% at CAP. I also said this was to BASE damage. Nothing there is inaccurate.

    A monk at 1 has (1)d6, a monk at 20 has 3.5(d6). They are losing the (.5) per few levels, for a total of a 2.5(w) reduction, as per their own patch notes. That's 71.4%.
    Wraps will make up a chunk of the differance, for a total loss of 10-15% at cap depending on the feats and LD taken. My point was, to maximize DPS after this uncalled
    for core class nerf, a monk will HAVE to use best in slot to even come close to keeping up with AVERAGE melee builds in other classes.

    Even before this, NO monk in our raids, with raid wraps, could keep pace with either the barbarian, or ranger, or rogue DPS and crit numbers on single target mobs.
    It's not just my opinion, it's flat-out-numbers. If I whirlwind a group of 20 mobs for 1k, that doesn't mean my reaper DPS is 20k. That's SSG math, not reality.

  9. #9
    Community Member MrTrolol's Avatar
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    Default

    I love how some of you completely disregarded the other things I said, stop hard focusing on a bit of a dps loss when they have plenty of things keeping them useful.

  10. #10
    Community Member Vish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTrolol View Post
    I love how some of you completely disregarded the other things I said, stop hard focusing on a bit of a dps loss when they have plenty of things keeping them useful.
    The monk has always had crowd control
    It has a specialized role,
    To jump over the mobs and take out the high value tgts
    That means reapers and bosses
    There is dire charge
    There is stunning fist
    There is tomb of jade
    You could also say kukan do, but that is weaksauce
    There is also quivering palm, possible now by wisdom conversion
    But of all those things,
    If a monk can't kill his tgt,
    They are worthless
    Otherwise they become touch cc,
    Which can be pretty deadly
    So a loss of 35% from a year ago,
    Is a great margin
    It hurts the heroics,
    It hurts the epics
    And it may remove them outta the cap game

    I've played a monk through these changes
    And I thought they were going to bring everybody up to that level
    Instead of bringing monks down
    But what do you know,
    Monks get a pass,
    And a year later they get nerfed bad
    Well, it was fun while it lasted,
    But it ain't gonna be fun from here on out
    Retired
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vish View Post
    The monk has always had crowd control
    It has a specialized role,
    To jump over the mobs and take out the high value tgts
    That means reapers and bosses
    There is dire charge
    There is stunning fist
    There is tomb of jade
    You could also say kukan do, but that is weaksauce
    There is also quivering palm, possible now by wisdom conversion
    But of all those things,
    If a monk can't kill his tgt,
    They are worthless
    Otherwise they become touch cc,
    Which can be pretty deadly
    So a loss of 35% from a year ago,
    Is a great margin
    It hurts the heroics,
    It hurts the epics
    And it may remove them outta the cap game

    I've played a monk through these changes
    And I thought they were going to bring everybody up to that level
    Instead of bringing monks down
    But what do you know,
    Monks get a pass,
    And a year later they get nerfed bad
    Well, it was fun while it lasted,
    But it ain't gonna be fun from here on out
    This

  12. #12
    Community Member Kodwraith's Avatar
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    Default

    So playing a capped monk with almost all the gear (but not all the past lives), I think the extra +1 to hit might effectively increase my dmg AT CAP. (yes this will suck in heroic) I've got a static WIS of 81, duality and the various falconry enhancements. Even at that, I'm still getting glancing blows more often than I like (2-4). So the extra +5 to hit might actually increase my damage on R1+ tankey mobs. (yes I could go run 3 fighter lives, but that seems excessive).

    Against the outer edges of mobs, the +WIS hit/dmg was a huge boost, as was switching to a slaver's ring with +28 accuracy over +23 accuracy CC goggles. Both big improvements over baseline against high AC mobs (Huge Angry Hate Shadows in Strhad). But I need moar.

    Currently my plan is to twist in Balanced Attacks for the +6 to hit and knock down chance.We really need named +Ins Wis / +Ins Accuracy / +Ins Deadly goggles.
    Last edited by Kodwraith; 10-02-2018 at 01:50 PM.
    Kodraith / Xanxibar / Xinibar / Lensgrinder :: Lava Divers of Khyber :: I'm a monk. I hit things; it's what I do.

  13. #13
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    My at-cap monk has about +130 to hit; +1 isn't going to make a splash considering the to-hit formula that's currently being used. +10 might make a difference; but that's not what's being proposed now is it?

    +1 to hit is in the vast majority of cases completely useless.
    Selvera: Deep gnome Alchemist 14/Rogue 1/Wizard 1; Q-staff build
    Jen: Half Elf Fvs 20/Epic 10; Healer Archer with a more supportive build then usual
    Mayve: Tiefling Sorc 16; Just a pastlife for an alt

  14. #14
    Systems Designer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodwraith View Post
    We really need named +Ins Wis / +Ins Accuracy / +Ins Deadly goggles.
    *scribbles down some notes*
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  15. #15
    Community Member Valerianus's Avatar
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    Default

    +1 to hit is totally useless. it's a joke. to hit is NOT a d20 system.

    and moreover, the mobs stats, ac too, are bloated.

    it may, i stress may, maybe have a meaning if it was a flat % to hit bonus. stackable with accuracy.


    edit: but i think the nerf is wrong
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  16. #16
    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    My at-cap monk has about +130 to hit; +1 isn't going to make a splash considering the to-hit formula that's currently being used. +10 might make a difference; but that's not what's being proposed now is it?

    +1 to hit is in the vast majority of cases completely useless.
    Interestingly during a recent lunch livestream cordo said the enhancement are for heroics when folks asked about alchemical traps in epics and increasing their DCs ... I think his point should be taken with more than a few grains of salt in that this is the view of SSG. Enhancements are for heroics and designed as such.

    Now counter arguements can be made and overall balance is needed, but the same was done with warlock nerfs. Heroics were the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachomammashouse View Post
    The devs got bamboozled by the forum warriors.

  17. #17
    Community Member Calloon's Avatar
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    Default Enough already!!

    To the Devs,

    Look I get it that monk is a strong class and that makes it seem over powered, but it is only that way after months of loot farming, months of ED farming, and at least a three past lives. I have put an immense amount of time into building a character that is capable of soloing quests because the implementation of Reaper caused a huge divide among groups. Monk is not a free class, you have to buy it or farm for it. It also requires numerous stat boosting items to even be functional. Not to mention most builds are back loaded and usually can only be done for end game by using a lesser heart to replace survivability feats.

    At this point you are on a witch hunt for anything good or that gives us an edge. My monk is a reward for time and money spent to make him that powerful, if you want to nerf them back to the stone age then make them free to play and refund every player the DDO points necessary to acquire the class. Don't punish good players for your inability to properly scale the game. This game has become a profit driven monster and has lost any sense of accomplishment unless you buy, buy, buy. Did you guys set out to make a game that spoke to you and many other people? Cause at this moment it looks like you sold out and left us with a broken pile of **** that some of us have spent nearly a decade or more supporting.

  18. #18
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    Thumbs up Very well said very well said indeed

    Quote Originally Posted by Calloon View Post
    To the Devs,

    Look I get it that monk is a strong class and that makes it seem over powered, but it is only that way after months of loot farming, months of ED farming, and at least a three past lives. I have put an immense amount of time into building a character that is capable of soloing quests because the implementation of Reaper caused a huge divide among groups. Monk is not a free class, you have to buy it or farm for it. It also requires numerous stat boosting items to even be functional. Not to mention most builds are back loaded and usually can only be done for end game by using a lesser heart to replace survivability feats.

    At this point you are on a witch hunt for anything good or that gives us an edge. My monk is a reward for time and money spent to make him that powerful, if you want to nerf them back to the stone age then make them free to play and refund every player the DDO points necessary to acquire the class. Don't punish good players for your inability to properly scale the game. This game has become a profit driven monster and has lost any sense of accomplishment unless you buy, buy, buy. Did you guys set out to make a game that spoke to you and many other people? Cause at this moment it looks like you sold out and left us with a broken pile of **** that some of us have spent nearly a decade or more supporting.
    Very well said very well said indeed

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calloon View Post
    To the Devs,

    Look I get it that monk is a strong class and that makes it seem over powered, but it is only that way after months of loot farming, months of ED farming, and at least a three past lives. I have put an immense amount of time into building a character that is capable of soloing quests because the implementation of Reaper caused a huge divide among groups. Monk is not a free class, you have to buy it or farm for it. It also requires numerous stat boosting items to even be functional. Not to mention most builds are back loaded and usually can only be done for end game by using a lesser heart to replace survivability feats.

    At this point you are on a witch hunt for anything good or that gives us an edge. My monk is a reward for time and money spent to make him that powerful, if you want to nerf them back to the stone age then make them free to play and refund every player the DDO points necessary to acquire the class. Don't punish good players for your inability to properly scale the game. This game has become a profit driven monster and has lost any sense of accomplishment unless you buy, buy, buy. Did you guys set out to make a game that spoke to you and many other people? Cause at this moment it looks like you sold out and left us with a broken pile of **** that some of us have spent nearly a decade or more supporting.
    I totally agree with the sentiment. And I had never played monk at all until recently and was only on my 2nd monk life. I was kind of enjoying it, but was not feeling even remotely overpowered relative to all the other melee classes in R1-R2's. As I said in a previous post, handwraps are 1D6 x2 (one of the weaker two handed weapons) and the handwrap tree does not give any major increase in damage when compared to other melees like kensai fighter or tempest ranger, paladin smites and exalted cleaves or barbarian supreme cleaves and all those builds would be based on greataxes, greatswords,khopesh (TWF or SWF builds) or in some cases mauls. Even specialized builds like swashbuckler bards and vistani knife fighter have way more goodies for light weapons or daggers than the monk handwrap tree.

    Even before this nerf, my first life swashbuckling TYWA handaxe dwarf was doing WAY more damage at 20th level than my 20th level 10th life character in monk (I TR'd at 20).
    The only way I can see heroic monks make up some of the nerf is buying the falconry tree. Seems like quite a mean spirited action from the developers.


    At least for me, the monk IS dead. I will finish this life and the third for +3 damage and retire the monk (other than a splash here or there) for good. Congrats!! Mission accomplished??

    Even then My third life monk will be built totally without handwraps in the equation just to make the TR life easier with the minimum monk levels required to qualify for the past life.

  20. #20
    Community Member Niminae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    Now counter arguements can be made and overall balance is needed, but the same was done with warlock nerfs. Heroics were the point.
    Ha, yes indeed. In the name of 'heroic balance' Warlocks had their Epic damage nerfed hard. They were offered a way to re-purchase the lost damage using epic level feats that could be used for other things instead. Because the dev team thought that Warlock heroic damage was too high but apparently couldn't come up with a way to nerf that while staying true to the stated cause of heroic damage, and so Warlocks have pitiful epic damage as a result.

    And now because Monk damage is seen by the dev team as being too high in Epics, they are responding by nerfing Monk damage in Heroics. Right after they already nerfed Monk damage in Heroics by killing the melee power in Henshin.

    There is nothing new under the sun.

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