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  1. #21
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    Don't forget, one of the things the Devs want to do is improve melee characters/classes as a whole. Whether this means an increase in melee damage across the board or something else, if they had just implemented that change before Monks were nerfed then Monks would be considered OP to the extreme. Whatever they are planning should help classes such as Paladins and Rogues, while also bringing Monks up more.

    The only part about this though that doesn't make sense to me is why melee characters couldn't just be improved across the board and have Monks nerfed at the same time to mitigate the effect of the nerfing. Perhaps they want to see how players are doing post-nerf so they have a better idea of where Monks live in the melee class hierarchy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wise fwom ur gwave.

  2. #22
    Community Member sago's Avatar
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    Default Ki Generation

    Monks need to generate more Ki at lower levels (1 through 10)
    Characters most played - Zaofu, Zaosin and Zaotil (Thelanis) - Xaoru (Sarlona)


  3. #23
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    Default Dungeons and Dragons - Online: Philosophy

    Martial Arts has a philosophy
    Monks represent that

    Over the course of a natural progress of training, you get stronger, faster, wiser, and a new belt (.5W)
    A monk gets INHERENTLY stronger as s/he becomes more enlightened.

    No way you can tell me a level 20 monk is NOT stronger then a level 4 monk.
    Oh wait....****....now you can.

    The current system of Enhancements seems in need of a hard look.
    The ML class restrictions should not be for just the cores, but also for the tiers.
    Should a level 6 monk have access to the skills, boosts, attacks of a level 20?
    No, and perhaps, nor should any multiclass build.

    The growing number of issues in design and player enticements to sustain a business model is conflicting with tradition.
    Does SSG plan to change the name of the game?

  4. #24
    Community Member Paisheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    Out of curiosity, why was the base dmg increase removed from unarmed?
    From my understanding when they made the change to have hand wraps work as weapons they wanted to be keep consistency among all weapons using only W damage bonuses. This would help wraps function with many feats, epic feats and equipment that they weren't coded for when they were not weapons.

    As the monk was a class primarily dedicated to Open Handed fighting (like a Kensai dedicated to one weapon) to reflect the improvement of damage (DnD and DDO) of what they used to get from die steps every 4 levels they changed to the natural progression of damage of +.05 W damage every four levels.

    At level 20 it was a 1d20 die to show the monk's inherent improvement of power from its dedication to unarmed (hand wraps) martial arts. The change to +W weapon damage was 2.5 W (at level 20) improvement or 2.5 x 1d6 base die. It was a fairly equitable exchange -- less high end damage potential but slightly better average damage with the Ws.

    At level 20 the monk on average now receives a +8.5 damage improvement if they are a pure monk. And the monk gets +1 dmg for the first 4 tiers of Shintao tree so a possible +12.5 damage average bonus at 20.

    Just as a contrast the Kensai fighter dedicated to a whole group of weapons receives +10 damage (weapon specialization every tree tier and weapon master) by level 12. This does not include excellent core benefits such as crit multipliers, improved melee power and power surge (+8 all attributes which would equal +4 more damage). With power surge a kensai receives +14 damage at level 12 -- more than the monk at level 20 (though by concept a monk has dedicated his whole life to only open handed fighting to receive this benefit where even the kensai has it apply to a whole group of weapons -- even if they choose martial arts at their group they get this bonus not just to hand wraps but to staff, shurikan, kamas too).

    The proposed nerf is removing the core concept of a monk dedicating his life to one style of fighting (unarmed). I hope the devs change their mind and reaffirm this philosophy and concept of improved monk damage through class levels -- something that has always been cannon to the class since its introduction in 1976.

  5. #25
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Exclamation a fundamental question

    Quote Originally Posted by Hipparan View Post
    Don't forget, one of the things the Devs want to do is improve melee characters/classes as a whole. Whether this means an increase in melee damage across the board or something else, if they had just implemented that change before Monks were nerfed then Monks would be considered OP to the extreme. Whatever they are planning should help classes such as Paladins and Rogues, while also bringing Monks up more.

    The only part about this though that doesn't make sense to me is why melee characters couldn't just be improved across the board and have Monks nerfed at the same time to mitigate the effect of the nerfing. Perhaps they want to see how players are doing post-nerf so they have a better idea of where Monks live in the melee class hierarchy.
    It is nice of you that you have faith that the developers have well thought out plans for the future and we all should hope that your right with your assumptions.
    But It doesn't change the fact that they change the feat Unarmed Strike most likely with the next update in a way that is plain wrong.
    It doesn't really matter for me whether the monk class is 20% stronger or weaker, this change is in principle wrong and the numbers and calculations are secondary.
    In Dungeons&Dragons a monk is supposed to get stronger fists when he gets more level this is a fundamental question for the class design if you change this in the supposed way it is a turning away from Dungeons&Dragons in general.
    I often say DDO needs to go his own way and is not bound to the exact Pen and Paper rules but in this case, it is very clear that it would be too much.
    And I doubt this feature will be removed from the monk class in D&D any time soon because it makes simple a lot of sense for a martial artist!

    I know in DDO for technical reasons the fists are now technically real weapons and it is need to take this into account but it is still possible to keep this monk feature.
    Therefore my first suggestion is that the monk's fists modify the Handwraps with the result that the handwraps together with the stronger monk fists have a stronger unarmed damage as result.
    This is much closer to the 3.5-5e D&D rules as what we currently have and it takes into account that handwraps are now technically real weapons.
    How strong your modifier is at the end is, of course, a matter of your calculation and I have to leave this to the developers.
    But my examples and suggested numbers show that this is possible and the result at the end can be very similar to what we have now.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  6. #26
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Post it is foremost the simpler way

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuxedoman96 View Post
    Out of curiosity, why was the base dmg increase removed from unarmed?
    It is of course only my interpretation but I think the reason is that it is an easier way to implement it.
    before the nerf you had a "table" with different weapons [1d6],[1d8],[1d10],[2d6],[2d8], [2d10] and here it ends in 3.5 even for epic monks.
    In DDO we have effects that increased the damage of your fists by one step but this means also that you need dices past level 20.
    And it means that it is very limited if you don't want it to be completely overpowered e.g. you could have further steps like [3d8] etc.
    So the main disadvantage of the pen and paper system is that it is quite crude and doesn't allow smaller improvement steps and it is also harder to implement and calculate.

    The current system is much simpler you have one modifier and this is x[W] and everything that modifies your unarmed damage just only sums up with each other.
    e.g. you have form Unarmed strike +2.5[W] and from Shintao +1[W] and +2[W] and the result is +5.5[W].
    You see it is just only much simpler to calculate and I think this was the reason for this change.
    If you see my first suggestion, you see that it is, in the same way, easy to calculate even if I don't know how much work it would be to shift the modifier into the parentheses I think it can work and would be much closer to the 3.5-5e rules of Dungeons&Dragons

    The easiest way is, of course, a simple damage bonus, with this you cannot do much wrong but it would be not very interesting in my opinion.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  7. #27
    Community Member Selvera's Avatar
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    My assumption was always that the devs wanted to give handwraps 1d6/1d8/1d10 etc damage dice after the update that turned them into weapons; but they couldn't code things this way, as their formulas didn't have any variables for weapon base die size except for the weapon base die size and they couldn't figure a way out to change that. So they gave them +[w] damage dice instead as a representation of the core monk class feature.

    They then repeated this process with war domain; where they realized they couldn't figure out how to make all weapons use 1d10/2d8 damage dice that was proposed in the war domain; so they decided to take that out and give it some non-flavorful proficiency bonus instead.

    If they can't figure out how modify the base damage dice with class features, I find it unlikely that a suggestion like this could be implmented; even if it would be cool and closer to the origeonal monk. I'd even advocate for the ravenloft wraps to lose their die increase (or have less) to compensate for this die increase; but then the dev's fear of adamantine wraps becoming the endgame wraps might become a reality.
    Selvera: Aasimar Fighter 17; Old and wise fighter.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Smile Against egalitarianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Selvera View Post
    My assumption was always that the devs wanted to give handwraps 1d6/1d8/1d10 etc damage dice after the update that turned them into weapons; but they couldn't code things this way, as their formulas didn't have any variables for weapon base die size except for the weapon base die size and they couldn't figure a way out to change that. So they gave them +[w] damage dice instead as a representation of the core monk class feature.

    They then repeated this process with war domain; where they realized they couldn't figure out how to make all weapons use 1d10/2d8 damage dice that was proposed in the war domain; so they decided to take that out and give it some non-flavorful proficiency bonus instead.

    If they can't figure out how to modify the base damage dice with class features, I find it unlikely that a suggestion like this could be implemented; even if it would be cool and closer to the origeonal monk. I'd even advocate for the ravenloft wraps to lose their die increase (or have less) to compensate for this die increase; but then the dev's fear of adamantine wraps becoming the endgame wraps might become a reality.
    I assume that the reason is not the impossibility to modify the numbers inside the parentheses, it is just much more difficult to have different dices from a table and bring them from there inside the parentheses and this is the point why the developers don't do this.
    In my suggestion, the modifier and calculation for it are almost the same as we have it now just the modifier is shifted inside the parentheses.
    Of course, it is some work in any case but I think it is worth it.

    Currently, there is a move to give all classes an additional +1 to critical range and multiplier, I would rather see classes get different ways to increase there damage.
    For a monk, the different way could be e.g. [1d6+x].
    And if you figure out that the Adamantine Knuckles or Antipode are too powerful then they should be nerfed if need.
    I see the weapons with improved critical profile and different weapon dices meanwhile more as a mistake from the past that should maybe be corrected for a better DDO in the future.
    Nothing in DDO is carved into stone it is software and can be changed if need.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  9. #29
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    Speaking of monk core class ability, the main draw for me is being able to fight with no equipment. Being exceptionally effective with all items broken, essentially naked, was the main draw for me to play monks both here and in paper games. My understanding has always been handwraps/weapons are supposed to be *minor* embellishments and not the main source of damage potential.

    The monk's body is the weapon.

    Looking over the enhancements, feats etc., it seems DDO recognizes the body-is-the-weapon but now seems to be getting side tracked with this make the class use weapons like every other class which is contrary to the monk concept.

  10. #30
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    In pen and paper monks go from 1d6 to 1d8 to 1d10 and finally 1d12, why not replace the 2.5 weapon dice with handwraps as a base dice of 1d12 at cap, I'm sure you could figure out how to, and it would "Nerf" monks without completely destroying the class, and I think that many monks could agree with this change. It would be closer to PNP and also you wouldn't have to deal with the weapon dice being broken with duality because it's practically another 2.5*3 dmg per hit due to ravenloft weapons, (which I'm pretty sure the problem is). Please seriously consider something like this and not just wave it off as a terrible suggestion, maybe you don't do 1d12 maybe it's just 1d10 it's still a lot more agreeable than the boring +1 to hit. That just seems like a throwaway ability that doesn't remotely correspond with PNP.

  11. #31
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    Default Wisdom monks

    I have to say that wisdom monks probably get the best dps of all monks, and the best utilities. Personally I'm upset because I don't play wisdom monks, for those that do, they will probably still be able to play their build after this Nerf. Maybe dex based monks can too, but less so. I play a strength based fist monk. Before wisdom based monk was a thing, it was a toss up between str and dex. Strength gets you better crits and less double strike, dex, the other way around. Wisdom imo should get you better utilities and less crit dmg and double strike. But it doesn't. Wisdom gets better utilities and better dps. Because of this I want to ask that you do Nerf monks, but just wisdom monks. The str and dex monks of ddo are not over powered, they are balanced. I don't know how you Nerf only the monks with a falcon, maybe just Nerf the falconry tree as a whole, maybe remove wisdom to hit and dmg from the tree. Either way, please don't destroy str monks and dex monks. Those are by far my favorite builds, and the most interesting to me and many other players in ddo. I hope you seriously consider this.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    When Handwraps were originally designed, they did not have a scaling dice component that other weapons did. Handwraps at cap today, were they still on the original system, would not have any inherent W bonus at all.

    However, when Handwraps were turned into real weapons, they were compensated with actual W scaling that uses the Minimum Level of the Wraps to add appropriate W values. The Unarmed Strike feat was originally created as a compensation for the lack of inherent Ws in weapon scaling, but now that Handwraps scale on their own, it is no longer needed. With the upcoming change to Unarmed Strike, Handwraps now use the same scaling and will get the same W bonus as every other weapon type in DDO.
    To say that it is not needed anymore is falicy. Monks unarmed strike used to scale in damage die (1d6, 1d8, 1d10, etc) with an increase in heroic levels. The +W was a compensation for that. Hand wrap Monks have terrible base damage (1d6) terrible Crit profile (19-20 x2) and is one of the few pay to play classes in the game. As a matter of fact, the only monks that are truly OP is the freak WIS to dmg that was created due to the introduction of the Falconry tree. With WIS to dmg, you simply make no choices to give up any benefit of a monk (best stuns, best dmg, best AC, best will save) and can dump all other stats except con technically. This is what broke monk. Monk has always been a choice and stat intensive. To remove the competiveness from the monk from one of its exclusive prestige trees is a terrible decision. And if you do, their should be a compensation of scaling weapon die damage taken, but make it only apply if you use str to dmg (normal) or Dex to dmg (ninja spy only) trees. This solves many problems. Killing monks from being competitive in DPS (they are a DPS class by the way) will be a bad idea from a developer. Or maybe the falconry tree should just lock out exotic weapons from its wis to dmg enhancement.
    Last edited by jskinner937; 10-01-2018 at 09:15 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    When Handwraps were originally designed, they did not have a scaling dice component that other weapons did. Handwraps at cap today, were they still on the original system, would not have any inherent W bonus at all.

    However, when Handwraps were turned into real weapons, they were compensated with actual W scaling that uses the Minimum Level of the Wraps to add appropriate W values. The Unarmed Strike feat was originally created as a compensation for the lack of inherent Ws in weapon scaling, but now that Handwraps scale on their own, it is no longer needed. With the upcoming change to Unarmed Strike, Handwraps now use the same scaling and will get the same W bonus as every other weapon type in DDO.
    but that's not how monks were designed. You ask us how to improve melee survivability and then you take away their best chance(killing things quickly). some of the stuff you guys do really makes no sense. Unless you play a repeater build or ranged you have no chance especially in reaper. It would be nice if you didn't break the game and just left things as they are sometimes.

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